Remembering our pasts: 11-7/8-09
Saving the children: 11-10-09

An interfaith week in KC: 11-9-09

All right, let's go over this just one more time.


The annual Kansas City Festival of Faiths is on, and two major events are happening this week.

Should you go to them? Of course. Will I? You bet.

So I'm going to tell you again what they are:

* Eboo Patel, founder and executive director of the Interfaith Youth Core, based in Chicago, will be the keynote speaker tomorrow night at Beth Shalom at 9400 Wornall. The link I've given you to the Festival of Faiths above will tell you how to attend, though I hope by now you have tickets for you and everyone you know. I'll be moderating the Q&A after Eboo speaks, so come with some good questions.

* The Greater Kansas City Interfaith Council's annual Table of Faiths luncheon will be Thursday. Click here for details and a way to get tickets. This year the luncheon will honor youth involved in interfaith work, which I wrote about in the Faith section of The Star a week ago Saturday.

There are other events on the Festival of Faiths schedule, too, but for sure you shouldn't miss these two this week.

* * *


And speaking of things interfaith, Peter Steinfels, a great religion writer, has done this piece for The New York Times about two books that draw on various religions. I frankly don't understand the fear some people have about interfaith relations and even learning about other religious traditions. Failing to learn means staying ignorant, which is the breeding ground of fear.



Bill, I found Peter Steinfels's article, about the two books promoting interfaith dialog, most interesting. He's definitely got me wanting to read Somar Selmanovic's book. And the title of Paul F. Knitter's book, "Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian," got me thinking about something I read in G. Scott Sparrow's book about encounters with Mary. One woman who had such an encounter told Mary she wasn't a Catholic -- and Mary said neither was she!

Sometimes we need something/someone to shake us up and remind us that God is not a Christian. And Somar Selmanovic hit the nail on the head by talking about "The quest to find God beyond the boundaries of one's faith ..."

Cole, I don't see how anyone can absolutely prove the existence or nonexistence of God in such a way that "everyone" would accept the proof. I mean, you feel that the non-existence of a loving and personal God has been adequately proved by all the suffering in the world. I see the suffering and yet I disagree with you.

But, hypothetically, supposing someone provided absolute proof that there was no God, I would still believe in love and people and community -- so I don't know that my life choices would be all that different. Only I don't think I'd be capable of stopping believing in God, to tell you the truth.


One more thought about why communion is different from cannibalism:

Did you guys know that, biologically speaking, a breastfeeding baby is above his mother on the food chain since he feeds on a living tissue created from her body and blood?

Yet no one who's up-to-date on all the breastfeeding research, would see the mother-child breastfeeding relationship as the least bit comparable to a Hannibal Lector murder. Breastfeeding, after all, adds life and health to the mother as well as to the baby!

I understand that there's this human tendency to feel squeamish about all the messy processes involved in creating a new life. But, hey, you red-blooded American (and Russian) guys got past all the "ick" about sex didn't you? -- so I think with a little effort you could learn to esteem and reverence the intimacy of partaking in the life that is ours through Christ.

One concept I'm learning through G. Scott Sparrow, is the reality that God was dependent on Mary in His working out of His plan for salvation. I know it is hard (and maybe initially feels repulsive) for grown men to think about becoming as a little child and nursing at the breast of God -- but God modeled this childlike interdependence for us by depending on Mary and even nursing from her breast.

Maybe it's time for you guys (those of you who equate communion with cannibalism) to get in touch with your feminine side!


Also, to bring the interdependence-concept full circle, Mary was dependent on her own Son for her salvation, as well as dependent on His leading throughout her life. "And a little child shall lead them."

The more I think about this, the more I'm reminded of Indra's Net with all its repeated patterns of interdependent relations.

Hmmm ... now I'm wondering if I also need to read Paul F. Knitter's "Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian"!!!


P.S. In my post about communion I was not intending to bully anyone into partaking of this sacrament, or saying that everyone should think like me, though I think I accidentally came across that way. I was actually encouraging empathy for the Christian perspective, though I was doing it in a rather unempathetic way, as I now realize.

Dolores Lear

"I frankly don't understand the fear some people have about interfaith relations and even learning about other religious traditions. Failing to learn means staying ignorant, which is the breeding ground of fear."

In Genesis, God/Us Humans Colonized Life on Earth. These High Tech Purebred Male and Female Asexual Clone Helpmeets, Reproduced Human Male and Female Clones,
in their Image.

Genesis 1:27, KJV. "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Genesis 2:22. "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought here unto the man."

The Female was the High Tech Clone of the Male. They should not Reproduce Children.

But they did Sin, by Body Birth Reproduction, and Reproduced Defective Children, with Fear, Greed, Inequality, Division, Disease, Killing and Death.

Their First Male Child killed his Brother, and Fear has been on Earth between All the Different Types of Body Birth Humans ever Since, even between family members.

The Breeding Ground of Genetic and Physical Defects began, and Fear and Killing became the Lifestyle of Misbred Humans on Earth.

As Bill says: Failing to learn means staying ignorant, which is the breeding ground of fear."

Humans stayed Ignorant, until they again have the High Tech Science to Know about Genetics and High Tech Equal Birth Clone Reproduction.

It is No Mystery today, that Genetic Birth Defects and Diseases do come from Human Body Birth Reproduction.

Human Body Birth was the Original Sin of Adam and Eve, and is the Original Sin of All Heterosexual Humans that Reproduce Children ever since. All 7 Billion Humans today were born in Sin, with Uncontrolled Human Breeding.

Now Humans need Overcome Ignorance, to Learn and Accept, High Tech Cloning the Female from the Male Rib, to Overcome Body Birth Sin, and Overcome Fear and Overpopulation, and Return to Equality of Birth, and Peace for All.


Last week I posted about debate of Hitchens and Fry against two Catholics. The motion was "Catholic Church is a good force in the world" - the motion was defeated with devastating results - the "against" crowed gained a huge amount of votes, there were virtually no "undecided" left and the "pro" crowed lost 40-50% of their supporters.

The video is now availbale (looks like it's an edited version, maybe the full vresion will be put out soon, but the most biting points made by HItchens and his friend Fry are there - Catholic chuch has been humiliated and completely outranked in this debate.

Goes to show you that in a few hours with proper preparation and arguments minds of people can be changed dramatically.,4580,-Christopher-Hitchens-and-Stephen-Fry-vs-The-Catholics-,The-Intelligence-Squared-Debate---YouTube---AtheistPlanetBlog
This coming Sunday at Community of Reason at UMKC

1 p.m. "No Woman Allowed- A Visit to Mt. Athos"
Eric Dollard, Biblical Scholar
Hear about a visit to Athos The Holy Mountain in Greece, where 20 Orthodox monasteries are located and where no women or even female draft animals, have been allowed for almost 1,000 years.

Skeptical Religious Studies - Haag Hall, Room 309
10:30am - Proceedings of the Jesus Project (Joseph R. Hoffman and Robert M. Price)


The article Bill referred to >>>>>>>>Atheism does not escape his criticism, but “atheism at its best,” he writes, “grabs us by the collar and throws us to the ground, demanding to see lives well lived, forcing us to dig deeper and live up to the best of our own religions.” And in a memorable phrase: “Atheists are God’s whistleblowers.”


How would this sound? - “Atheists are Pink Unicorn's whistleblowers.” Or something like "if you rub two rocks together" it will clear your sinuses? Or take this homeopathic medicine duluted to 1 bln parts and it will cure your cancer - or just pray and it will be given to you?

I wonder if sometimes religious people have their head screwed on right. Instead of "Who created the universe?", they should ask a "bird's eye view question" - "What created the universe? What was the mechanism by which it came into being". The "specifics" of their "anectodal" testimonies are so biased that it is a clear indication to me that humans are inherently irrational especially when religion takes hold.

But the Hitchens/Fry vs. Catholics debate clearly shows that public opinion about religion can be swayed within hours! So, rational in irrational beings can overcome the silliness of supersticions.

The perversion of this statement is beyond any rational comprehension. God cannot be proven or disproven just like Santa Claus, tooth fairies, Juju of the Mountain, Pink Unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, we can only rely on "every day", "rational" and "street level" wits to understand that, but to label atheists as "god's whistleblowers" is a false dichotamy and is really irrational and delusoinal.

Ask yourself - Why won't god listen to amputees' prayers? -

Just Thinking

The athiests posting on this blog claim that everything which happens can be fully explained by Science. So, every thought that they've ever had and ever will have is inherent in their configuration of molecules. They have no choice about what to believe. They have no choice in what they can think. They have no ability to change what will happen, because Science dictates everything that will happen. That's *their* belief, and who could change it?

So the athiests posting here will never change their minds because they have no choice to do so. Their beliefs are determined by their molecules. They're just going through the motions of life as robots. They're voiceless backseat riders in a car whose path was completely determined long ago.

It's amazing what tangled, knotted things people will believe in order to write the supernatural out their life. You can't talk to such a person. Their desparate desires to deny the supernatural are so strong that they are willing to believe that they have no control whatsoever to change their destiny, to change their thinking, or to change/influence even the tiniest thing that will ever occur.

This fatalistic view of the world, by the way, is not supported by Science. Accepted Science, *real* Science as written in peer-reviewed journals denies that there are Scientific 'laws' which determine everything that will happen. Scientists know that we live in a world where choices of what will happen occur all the time, in every corner of the Universe, and none of these choices is dictated by Science.

John 3:12 - Jesus said
"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

Just Thinking

Concerning Communion, Susan,

The Bible explains its own language. For example, in 1 Chronicles 11, one finds a very clear use of the phrase 'drink the blood,' which is not literal. If you accept a gift which someone risked their life (or gave their life) to offer you, then you 'drink the blood' of the one who offered the gift. In 1 Chronicles 11, david refused to drink water that was brought to him by men who had risked their lives to go beyond enemy lines in order to bring water back to David.

That's what Jesus does, too. He not only risked his life to bring forgiveness, but He willingly GAVE his life. If you accept the gift of salvation that comes from Jesus, then you 'drink his blood' and 'eat his body' in accepting that gift. That's the way the phrase was used long ago. And there is no way to obtain God's gift except through God Himself who became flesh and dwelt among us. So, if you refuse to 'drink his blood' and 'eat his body', then you have no other alternative. Jesus often spoke in metaphors and parables.

1 Chronicles 11:17-19
David longed for water and said, "Oh, that someone would get me a drink of water from the well near the gate of Bethlehem!" So the Three broke through the Philistine lines, drew water from the well near the gate of Bethlehem and carried it back to David. But he refused to drink it; instead, he poured it out before the LORD. "God forbid that I should do this!" he said. "Should I DRINK THE BLOOD of these men who went at the risk of their lives?" Because they risked their lives to bring it back, David would not drink it.

Bill posted,

Why is fear so important in religion? FEAR, FEAR, FEAR……

Leaders of their own faith aren’t necessarily agreeable with their members.

You want to expand this and make it something real? Then make it realistic. Include us all.

I wonder how many people on this blog had imaginary friends when they were children.

1 in 5 Brit kids have imaginary friends

Read more:
Don’t you think it’s time to shake of those imaginary friends and support a society that is fair.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Dolores Lear

I was a Missouri Synod Lutheran from Birth. Nothing up to my 49th January Birthday in 1971, could change my Religion Denomination. I belonged to the One True Religion, of my Ancestors.

In February, 1971 rereading the Noah Flood in Genesis, showed it lasted over a year instead of 40 days. 'The Flood', by Rehwinkel also backed up a Planetary Flood.

So in Ignorance, Humans handed down the Flood as a Local Flood, in Books and in Movies. Why, when Genesis recorded a Planetary Flood?

I had been exposed to the Sinking of Atlantis since History in High School. And then in Movies and TV.

I accepted that the Sinking of Atlantis was the Same Past Earth History, as the Planetary Noah Flood. I made a Hand Written paper of the Noah Flood, verse by verse, as recorded in Genesis, and sent it to many people.

What causes our blindness to the Truth in Genesis? Fear? Why is it still taught as a 40 Day Flood today?


Why Fear Biblical Truth? Man-Made Religions teach similar Bible Teachings, only different Man-Made Denomination Teachings, handed down from Generation Body Birth, Death, and Rebirth.

Man-Made Governments also Divide Humans on One Home Planet. We have High Tech Communications, but Misbred Humans are still not Communicating, and are at War and Killing Each Other.

Instead of trying to Understand Interfaith Teachings, it is Time to Look at what the Scriptures and Myth teach about the Past High Tech Lifestyle on Earth.

The Gospel Truth is in Genesis, and Mistranslated by our Ancestors without High Tech Science, and by Humans today with High Tech Science.

So what is there to Fear, to find the Truth of High Tech Eternal Physical Human Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships, was on Earth 'in the beginning'?

Just Thinking

By the way, Susan, loved the post on breastfeeding. It ties in with David's story in 1 Chronicles 11. And it ties in with the fact that we must feed on God's Word. And Jesus is the Word. It ties in with many other things.

Jesus is the bread of life
John - Jesus said,
"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever."

Bread is not the only food.
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Jesus is the Word
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

The Word produces Faith
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

You are saved by Grace through Faith
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—-not by works, so that no one can boast.

Dolores Lear

JT. (Proving Supernatural is Real)
"John 3:12 - Jesus said "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

Jesus was in Contact with the Father/High Tech Science Humans, that Colonized Life on Earth. He also went Alive, out into Space, with them. He is Alive for 2000 years, in a High Tech Science Regenerated Purebred Asexual/Celibate Body.

This Writings were handed down as Supernatural by Fallen Body Birth Humans without High Tech Science. All Supernatural in Scripture and Myth, is about High Tech Science Peace Clones, and High Tech Body Birth Killer Noah/Atlantis Humans, like High Tech Body Birth Killer Humans today.

The Natives on New Guinea called the US Aviators 'Gods, that set up a base there. Natives called Steve Fossett, a God descending down from Heaven, when he made an unplanned landing, in his balloon in the Jungle. High Tech is 'Super'Natural to Body Birth Humans.

All the Information in Scripture and Myth, were handed down by Religious Monks who copied Scriptures carefully. Now Humans again have High Tech Science, and be able to again Translate, The Truth that passes Body Birth Human Understanding.

Just like Humans teach the Noah Flood was a 40 Day Flood, when Genesis lists it as 1 year, 1 month, and 27 days, why do Humans still teach Supernatural for High Tech?

When are Humans going to start Reading Scriptures with a 'Literal' True High Tech Translation?

Someday, Before we Kill our Home Eco System with our High Tech Pollution, and Before we Blow up our Home Planet with our High Tech Nuclear Bombs?

What Else are Human going to do 'For the Love of the Man-Made Gods on Earth, especially the Peace God and Jesus', that a majority of Humans on Earth accept?

adam harrison

The two Catholics who debated Christopher Hitchens were obviously not experienced debaters.

It was a different story when Hitchens debated Douglas Wilson and William Lane Craig!



Why is there an obsession with "fear" among religious people?

Just Thinking was telling us the other day "we fear answers/supernatural?".

Now this BS? - "fear nothing but the fear itself". I keep hearing from religious people about "fear of god", fear of sin, etc.

In case you did not notice there are a few commandments out of 10 that dealt with fear.

If you got to fear your "space daddy" in order to be human and "moral" - good luck to you, peeps.

I wonder however, if your god comes to you and tells you to kill your child like he did in the OT, what are you going to do? Are you going to kill the child? - is it going to be moral? Even if your god tells you it's part of the game?

Or to enslave me? Would you do that? if your god tells you that?

Guess what? There are Xians who'll say they would do whatever god tells them to do.

And there are Xians who'd say - this is not the god I know! the god I know would never ask this of me.

Well, still doesn't answer the question.

And another one, if all of a sudden your space alien is proven nt to exist, are you going to go out and start raping and killing?

Hence, lies the answer to your morality...

Uness of course you can wrap your brain around some "phyosophical" new line of William Lane Craig/Just Thinking/William Dembski/Behe, etc. alng the lines of intelligent design and mindless process of molecules that determine everythign.

IGGY - will be setting up additional 1-2 meetups starting Dec/Jan at Blackdog on Sundays.

These meetups will concentrate on "debates" of theists with evolutionists, scientists - Mohler, Craig, Lennox, De'Souza, etc. We'll be watching them via projector - most of them are on YouTube and last 1.5-2 hours.

There will be plenty of discussions, we'll be compling an actual list of references, books, scientific articles, etc. mentioned in the debates and going over them.

The principle goal of these meetups will be to "isolate" the "phylosophical, moral, logical, historical, and scientific" arguments debating theists use (typically "primary cause, there is nothing from nothing) put them into a simple online table and add "dressed up verbiage they use" and then create specific rebuttals that can be used against them.

Perhpas, it's an opoprtunity for James Christensen to show up? - he was adamant about debating people at KCFS at one point (I recall seeing a post about it). Maybe he can finally "bless" us with his presence?

The minions of Adamh (where is this dude? - he just fell of the face of the Earth? - it must be flat!), Will Grhaam/Andrew/Goldstein, are of course always welcome to come without any conditions.

Maybe Just Thinking can show up too?

We may start with William Lane Craig's debates as he is the most slick and slippery philosophical theologian who puts up a good dog and pony show without substance besides appealing to "authority" of logic and hiding the "primary cause" - the Flying Spaghetti Monster dressed up in theistic clothing.

Just Thinking,

Don't tell me that you're unafraid of dealing with issues of the supernatural. You absolutely are AFRAID, and have deliberately sidestepped a very fundamental and basic question in that regard:

QUESTION: Is there something you can do in your life which could not be predicted by Science?

You refuse to address this very fundamental question because you are AFRAID of it. None of the atheists in this blog have dared to answer, "Yes" or "No?" You're just pretending that the question doesn't exist, hoping that it will go away. Because you know that your illogical foundations will be fully exposed if you answer that question.

adam harrison

Tell, me KCF, if the government comes to you, as, say, a health care worker, and says to kill a child, as in an abortion or infanticide, will you do it?

A lot of doctors do. Are you going to kill the child? Is it moral? Even if Obama says its OK, because he voted against preserving the life of child born during a a botched abortion?

Would you put me in a Gulag, if the government ordered it?

But as to proving God doesn't exist, as you suggest, I await your proof. You are still running away from giving me a Hypothetical least in PRINCIPLE...that you would accept as to the existence of God.

My prediction: You CAN'T.

But I like the idea of the debates; William Lane Craig debated Richard Carrier in Maryville back in March. You didn't show. You should have. It was a disaster for Carrier, as he even admitted on his blog.

By the way, James Christensen NEVER posted at the KCFS, although you have thrown his name around a lot.

adam harrison

By the way, Christopher Hitchens was gung ho for the Iraq war.

Still is.


Goldstein wrote>>>>>By the way, James Christensen NEVER posted at the KCFS, although you have thrown his name around a lot.

"NEVER?" Wow! - how do you know? Are you sharing the same brain with James Christensen? - looks like it? Maybe he is not telling you everything he's been doing online?

One thing is clear - the same "Andrew" who has been identified as "Christensen" by people at KCFS (however they got to it, I'll do some more digging) was posting at other blogs (Secular Parenting, Chuck Lunney's blog - same profile and same member ID). So, connections are slowly getting formed.

Here is Christensen's admission in his own words he posted to Kansas Citizens for Science forums -
Christensen | July 30, 2006 12:53 PM | Edit
Well Burt, you are misrepresenting what I said just like you did wheh we were both on KCFS forums.
I think we'll set up a little "task force" to actually connect all the Kansas City Christian trolls online (Andrew/Will Graham/Goldstein/Blair/Basement Activist/Anti Atheist/Diana Christensen/KC James/James B Christensen - would "B" be for "Blair?") and many other reincarnations of the christian trolling behavior and post it online for everyone to make their own opinion - at personal blogs, KCStar, science blogs, KCFS, etc.

This would be fun!

adam harrison

James says he has NEVER posted at the places you name, certainly not the KCFS forum. Call him and ask him youself.

Your credibility on this type of thing is ZERO, IGOR.

And I see no admission; all I see is someone throwing the name around.

By the way, have YOU ever posted under that name?

As a matter of fact, how many names HAVE you posted under KCF/Iggy/Christian brains are delicious/ Hannibal/ Hawkeye...etc. etc. etc.

adam harrison

Notice how Iggy ignores all challenges, and when he is clearly refuted just changes the subject and launches into his attack mode?

Oh, and a follow up, did you post a lot of stuff about relatives of his on your site?

YES or NO?

Dolores Lear

"I frankly don't understand the fear some people have about interfaith relations and even learning about other religious traditions. Failing to learn means staying ignorant, which is the breeding ground of fear"

Fear is taught when the Ten Commandments, Creeds, etc. in Luther's Small Catechism, and are taught in Confirmation at 13, in the Missouri Lutheran Synod Religion.

The Ten Commandments all teach 'fear'. All Ten Commandments are listed and then the Question: What does this mean? We should fear and love God.... with explanations for each Commandment.

Followed by 'What does God say of all these Commandments?' "He says thus: I, the Lord, thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate Me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me and keep My Commandments."

"What does this mean? God threatens to punish all that transgress these Commandments. Therefore we should fear His wrath and not act contrary to them. But He promises grace and every blessing to all that keep these Commandments. Therefore we should also love and trust in Him and willingly do according to His Commandments."

These teachings, and telling Confirmation Teens, that we have the One True Religion, and should not go to other Churches, similar to how the Catholic Religion used to ban their members from going to any other Church.

I do understand the 'fear' some people have about interfaith relations and even learning about other religious traditions. If they do, they may lose their True Religion.

This was still taught when my children were 13. I accept it is Brainwashing today. Like Train up a Child as to the Way they should go, and when they are grown they will not depart from it.

I did not depart from it until I was 50, and had this new High Tech Science explanation of Genesis. At least I did not go to another Church Religion.

I think the Catholic Church has relaxed these rules today.

Will Graham

Notice how, when KCF is faced with challenges he knows he can't meet, by JUST THINKING and others, that he switches to attack mode, mode, jumping up and down, stamping his feet and yelling "Look! Look at that guy! Don't look at me!)

You really are frightened, aren't you, sport? Just like JUST THINKING said.

But seriously, Igor Dybal, er, KCF, I like your idea about a "task force" this case, to connect all the Atheist Trolls online (Igor, Hannibal Lector, Hawkeye for the City Guy, Alexander the Metal Worker, "Richard Dawkins, Ph.D." Panzie, etc.) and many other infestations of the atheist trolling behavior and post it online for everyone to make their own opinion, at personal blogs, KCStar, Atheism Is Dead, and OF COURSE Kansas Citizens for Science since Jack is such an intellectually honest guy.

Seriously, Iggy, I wonder how many names you have used? Or if Iggy is even your name at all. God only knows! Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

One thing is sure, none of us have ever threatened anyone or demanded that they SHUT UP and DIE.

Thats your game.

Will Graham

Now, if you have any guts, you will meet the challenge Just Thinking set out.

And I notice that in her very first post, early this morning, SUSAN said that even if absolute proof of the non existence of God were proved, she would still believe in love, etc.

Why, Susan?

What is this "love" you speak of to the athiest? Their certainly is no soul, just biochemical reactions and hormones gurgling out in various manifestations.

And what is this "proof" you speak of?

To to that they would have to demonstrate, just for started, that existence and live itself are the product of undirected forces.

Greg Swartz bragged about that, but quickly ran away when he realized he could not meet the challenge of demonstration.

How about you, Panzie?

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