Messages in a rainbow: 11-17-09
Our stark nuclear future: 11-19-09

Does E.T. need Jesus? 11-18-09

No doubt many of you read recently that the Vatican was going to explore the possibility that there may be intelligent life elsewhere in the cosmos.


This, of course, is quite a different approach than the Vatican took hundreds of years ago when it and much of the world insisted that the Earth was the center of the universe.

But this openly explorative approach also raises questions -- and a Jewish friend of mine asked some of those questions the other day:

So if aliens really exist, do they need Jesus for salvation? And would that be the same Jesus or an alien version?

I gave him what I thought might be one possible Catholic answer, then I gave him a possible Tammeus answer. Here they are:

First, a guess at a Catholic answer: There is no reason to limit God's plan of salvation to Earth. God, being a God of love, also would provide a means of salvation for all thinking living creatures everywhere. At one point in the New Testament Jesus says he has sheep in other flocks about whom we know nothing. Could that mean aliens on Tralfamador? Maybe. But whatever the means by which people may be in eternal relationship with God, God will provide it -- and remember that Christ is one of the three persons of the Godhead. That may (I'm really speculating here without having throught it through thoroughly) mean an incarnation of Christ into an alien life form parallel to Christ's incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth.

Next my own stab at an answer that I think is rooted in my Reformed Tradition of Christianity: God is sovereign. God is gloriously free. If there are thinking living creatures elsewhere in the universe, they would and will and do live within the boundaries of God's saving love. Does that mean they need Jesus for salvation? I am comfortable leaving that question to God.

In some ways, this whole matter raises the question of universalism, the question of whether all people will be saved no matter what.

A recent Christian response to that question is contained in a new book I've written about here recently, Accompany Them With Singing: The Christian Funeral, by Thomas G. Long.

He writes this: "The question is an important and vexing one, and it tends to divide the house. While the biblical evidence is mixed, the overall thrust of the biblical witness seems to encourage a hope for the redemption of all humanity. . .On the other hand, a sweet and easy universalism itself infringes on the freedom of God. . .The bad news is that everybody. . .is guilty; the good news is that the judge of the 'quick and the dead' is Jesus Christ."

Long also quotes Jurgen Moltmann, one of the most widely read theologians of our era. Moltmann has written:

"Can some people damn themselves, and others redeem themselves by accepting Christ? If this were so, God's decisions would be dependent upon the will of human beings. God would become the auxiliary who executes the wishes of people who decide their fate for themselves. If I can damn myself, I am my own God and judge. Taken to a logical conclusion, this is atheistic."

There. That should settle all of this. Right?

* * *


Another church-state lawsuit has been filed in Tennessee, this time over a public school that some people charge has been promoting Christianity. The rules about all of this may not be indisputably clear in all cases, but most of these suits could be avoided if everyone would follow the constitutional limits affirmed by case law. It's not that tough, folks.


Will Graham

Bill, earth may not be the "center" of the universe, but it is the only planet in this system to harbor life...the recent discovery of water on the moon, hailed by some posters as equaling the discovery of life, does not mean the moon is "alive". (Water is simply a combination of hydrogen and oxygen, nothing living about it.)

That said, the Bible does not say there is no intelligent life elsewhere; in fact, it says the opposite and warns us that some of those intelligences are hostile to God AND the human race.

Will Graham

AS to the Constitution, you claim that most of these problems could be avoided if everyone would follow the "case law".

But the "case law" is often contradictory.

For example, many of the atheists here seem to think the Constitution holds that there can no be public religious expresson in schools, which is not the case. Students can have religious organizations if set up by the students and if the schools allow other organizations to be set up by students.

And the Supreme Court has done some terrible things.

In Dred Scott is held that a black man was only three fifths of a man.

In Buck v Bell it held that forced sterilization could be allowed; there have been many decisions allowing what were in effect support for EUGENICS...the Atheist Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes was the architect of Buck v Bell.

What if the Court were to decide that parents could not teach their own religious beliefs to children? There are atheists like Dawkins who support exactly that.

Will Graham

A somewhat extraneous question, but I notice the KC"FREE"THINKERS and their allies make about 15 posts a day here. (And, nothing personal, but when someone posts Four or More several paragraphs long posts in a row in the space of a few minutes (obviously preset) I just scroll over them...I am not ignoring them, I just don't have time for that.)

Just wondering why they don't have any place for comments on their own site?

We would love to make our presence known there!

Just Thinking

Jesus is not a man, Bill. Jesus is part of God. And that part of God became flesh and dwelt among us. Clearly, the only way to God is through God Himself, not through some man who was appointed the job of reconciling man to God.

Your theology is incredibly weak on this, Bill.

Dolores Lear

"No doubt many of you read recently that the Vatican was going to explore the possibility that there may be intelligent life elsewhere in the cosmos." -
"At one point in the New Testament Jesus says he has sheep in other flocks about whom we know nothing."

God/Us gave the gift of tongues, at the Tower of Babel, after the Flood, to separate Humans into the many languages in this area. These Humans came to Jerusalem after Pentecost. When the Disciples were given these tongues, they could talk to these Humans about Jesus.

Saul/Paul talked, with Jesus up in a Saucer or some type of High Tech Vehicle.

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus appeared to the Humans in America, descendants of a Tribe of Israel. (In the same vehicle as Paul saw?)

3 Nephi 11. The Father (a voice above) testifies of his Beloved Son - Christ (descends from above) appears and proclaims his atonement - the people feel the wound marks in his hands and feet and side -.

3 Nephi 11:41. (Jesus appoints twelve) "Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken unto the ends of the earth."

Are there other records of places Jesus visited, Before he went up in the air physically into Heaven, a spaceship to leave Earth?

God/Us, the Colonizing Humans 'in our Image', and Jesus, prove there is Intelligent Life in the Cosmos.

Dolores Lear

My Granddaughter lives in Livermore California, and Works at the Lawrence Livermore Lab that is making a Laser.

One year when I was there visiting, her Boss took me on a tour of some of the Lab, where the laser was. She had told him about my High Tech thoughts.

In the Wilderness I accept the Rod Moses had was a laser wand.

It was exciting for me, because I am interested in High Tech Science, like the High Tech Science God/Us Humans in Genesis, who were 'in our Human Image'.

I hope Humans will continue to work on Clean Power instead of Continuing to Pollute the Planet with Nuclear Waste. We would have Plenty of Resource Money, if we quit Reproducing Nuclear Bombs and Weapons of All Kinds. Why do Humans Kill Each Other and their Home Planet?

All Humans on Earth need a Weapons Ban, to follow God/Us and Jesus.

Fusion has been talked about since the 1950s, as the Power of the Future. But we spent most of our Resources on Nuclear Bombs and Waste. Humans have to Stop Dividing the Atom, and start joining them, to reduce Nuclear Waste. Laser High Tech joins the Atom, it not divides them.

I accept High Tech was on Earth in the Beginning, and during the High Tech Noah/Atlantis Society, including Moses.

Now we have a Man named Moses in charge of Fusion. I Hope he can accomplish this now. We would have plenty of Resources if Humans give up all Weapons on Earth, and Unite as One Planetary Peace Society, and 'Go For Fusion'.

But we may not have Time, if 'Arm'ageddon or the Planetary Judgment Day Fire happens in 2012.

Here is a new article about the Lawrence Livermore Lab Laser.

Dolores Lear

Harry: (yesterday)
"Religion is found in every society in the world, so is the human mind wired up to believe in gods, and if so does this diminish the value or standing of religion?"

Religious Human Minds are wired as a Child, to believe in gods, as God Worship in temples made by Human Hands, is handed down from Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth. Train up a Child, in their Parents Religion, and ithey will not depart from it.

How many Churches, Temples, Mosques, etc., are there on Planet Earth, of All types of Religions, made by Humans Hands without High Tech Science?

The Planetary High Tech Descendants, of the High Tech Adam and Eve Body Birth Children, were wiped out by the Yearlong Planetary Noah/Atlantis Flood.

The Humans Saved around the Planet, each started their brand of Religion or Myth, from their Memory of the High Tech Noah/Atlantis Society.

There were One God Religions, Trinity Religions with a Father, Mother, and Son. Then in 300 CE, a Trinity God in Three Persons Religion, of Father, Son and Spirit, became the Biggest Religion around the Planet.

Humans accepted the Religion, taught to them as a Child, from Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth. When they were grown, do not depart from it.

Evolution began in the 1800s, and some Human became Atheists, and it is beginning to make inroads into Religion. But still the Planet is mostly Religious Humans.

Today we have High Tech Science again, to Know how God/Us Humans in Genesis Colonized Earth, and Reproduced Eve from Adam's Rib in the Lab.

High Tech explains the Supernatural that was handed down, by Generations of Humans without High Tech. Now Humans believe in Evolution, and in a Supernatural God Religion.

What difference does it make, when Religious and Atheitst Humans blow up our Home Planet with our Nuclear Bombs?



If the Bible is not written by god, but by humans (even if inspired by some "magic dust") Yahweh is the creator of the "flat earth" at best to them. People then knew nothing about solar system, milky way, other galaxies.

So, at best, we can extrapolate with today's knowledge that Yahweh is the "creator" of our universe. If and when "multi verses" are proven, then the ultimate question again will be "what created god in those universes" - this is pointless arguing about it, actually "delusional" to argue if Yahweh/Jesus/Pink Unicorns/tooth fairies govern our lives.

The opponents will call again on morals coming from god - my question to them again and again - what about the "morals" of the leopard seal from yesterday video's or a guerilla that saved a toddler in a zoo and handed him to the keepers when he fell.

Aren't you folks who are in religious lala land thinking straight?
Bill wrote>>>>>>>>>>> If there are thinking living creatures elsewhere in the universe, they would and will and do live within the boundaries of God's saving love.

Bill, you are displaying a remarkable "spiritual" ambivalence bordering on silliness and irrationality blinded by your version of a god.

Do you think followers of Rha, Zeus, Poseidon, Thor, Mythra, and Australian aboriginese used "boundaries of God's saving love" when they lived?

Or did god "reveal" himself to them in a different way?

Who the hell among them had an idea of your god? Unless you'll say that they "projected" god through their own language, culture, climate, trees, spirits of the wind, sun, "walk abouts" etc.

Come on, Bill! Even with your liberal version of Xianity, it's a leap to project "god's love" of aliens/ingenious cultures onto Yahweh and Jesus.

You have to twist your brain to avoid "nobody comes to my father but through me" thus condeming everybody who doesn't to hell by Jesus.

Unless of course, Jesus shows up as an octopus to the creatures on other planets that look like octopuses (octopi?)


SCIENCE PROGRAMMING ON KANSAS CITY COMMUNITY RADIO - KKFI 90.1 FM. - you can stream live the programming on KKFI or of course listen on radio while walking your dog or whatever. For techno geeks, there is streaming on your smart phone :o)

There is one show TODAY, so sorry for the late info. Next one is next week.

Both of these shows are live one-half hour call-in shows. The studio phone line is 816-931-5543 (KKFI).

TODAY, November 18, 12:30 p.m. – FOSSIL TALK – Guest Is Dr. Richard Gentile, UMKC Department of Geosciences emeritus professor. The topic is our regional fossil record – from Crestaceous invertebrates to the recent megafauna of the Pleistocene. Dr. Gentile will talk about the socially amenable crinoids (sea lily) that thrived in groves along the shallow seabed we now call downtown Kansas City. It is now Missouri’s state fossil.

Next Wednesday, November 25, 12:30 p.m. – The Grand Vision – Guest is Dr. William Ashworth, curator of the Darwin exhibition “The Grandeur of life” at the Linda Hall Library and associate professor of science history at UMKC. He will talk about Darwin’s life, his impact and the grandeur of his vision of life.

Just Thinking

Saying that nobody comes to the Father except through the Son is the same as saying, "Nobody comes to God except through the part of God which reconciles man to God." The Son is part of God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Far too many people interpret "Nobody comes to the Father except through the Son" to mean that, "You must know and accept certain facts about the life that Jesus lived while on this planet." Where does that jump in illogic come from? I can understand such naive assertions from atheists whose sole purpose in blog is to destroy belief in God. But why would Christians think that? God judges man through the Son. So of course everyone who comes to the Father must do so through the Son.

And there is a judgment day at the end for a reason. Those who find God in their lifetime will be saved. But there are others who will be saved as well. They must also come through Jesus by judgment, as my Gospel declares.

Romans 2
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Just Thinking

I think it is far more interesting to consider the possibility of other Universes, instead of just other life within this Universe. That's a far more interesting thought. Beings in another Universe could have different laws of Physics entirely. Time and space are part of the constructs of this particular Universe, but it doesn't have to be part of another.

We could never know for sure if there was another Universe because we could not visibly observe such a thing. And anything which we cannot see and directly observe, we will doubt. But one has to ask if there are other Universes. If there is one, why not many? What are the laws of Physics in other Universes, and what are the life forms, if any?

Thinking 'outside' the box of this Universe requires faith, because we cannot see there. The Bible refers to those who find God as being 'in Christ.' That phrase occurs over 50 times in the New Testament, and it is the Greek word 'en' which really means 'inside'. That is an existence in its own. And that is an existence worth contemplating.

So how does one find themself 'in Christ?' First you must seek God. 'Seek and you shall find.' And a door presents itself. 'Knock and the door shall be opened unto you.' Others may not know to seek, but will be there after judgment day.

Those who are drawn to the Father are sent to the Son. Nobody comes to the Son unless He is drawn to the Father. Jesus is the way to God. The Way, the Truth and the Life.


Bill, it seems more likely than not that there are other intelligent beings living on other planets.

If there are, I would be very interested in just spending a whole lot of time listening to them and learning everything I can about them: how they think, how their world works, how they cope with problems. It stands to reason that they would have every bit as much of a message from God for us, as we would for them.


Will Graham wrote>>>>>>>>That said, the Bible does not say there is no intelligent life elsewhere; in fact, it says the opposite and warns us that some of those intelligences are hostile to God AND the human race.

Quote from the Bible please on the "opposite" you are reffering to? - specific book, chapter and verse?

Intelligence hostile to God? - Your God alledgely cannot be threatened unless he is among other "equal" or "higher" gods - like the Olympian gods. Hence, you are under "illusions" of your own interpretation of your god. But since you are urged not to "rely on your own understanding" by the infallibale word of god, you fail not to - hence your psychological cognitive dissonance (P.S. on this one - where is AdamH? - I have missed your alter ego?)

This would make sense that god would tell Jews he is the only god for them and not others - just like Jesus was telling his apostles he has not come to preach to others but the jews.

Bill wrote>>>>>>>>>At one point in the New Testament Jesus says he has sheep in other flocks about whom we know nothing.

At one point, Jesus said that has not come to preach to "others flocks" but to the Jews only. You can "channel" and "project" "other flocks" however you want "without any evidence" pointing to aliens.

"Sheep" has "never" referred in OT or NT to "aliens" - only to "followers" of Christ. Jesus never spoke of aliens like he never spoke of gays and lesbians.

Jesus "never" pointed to any "cosmological" events, Big Bang, other planets - "never" to anyhting "outside" Judea - the small sliver of dirt in the Middle East known to him as a "Bronze Age" man.

And suprisingly, the "most important" man/son of god/god/devine being did not leave "anything" in writing. Imagine if a "Gospel of Jesus" shows up and it says "only sheep in Judea" - what are you going to say then?

And what if another books shows up where Yahweh in his own words says that he is a god of the Mormon kind? - and just in charge of the Milky Way?

What are you Xians going to say then? - I know - the "canon" is closed. There are no other books that will clarify anything?

Dolores Lear

"This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

How does Your Gospel differ from My Gospel? We both have a Judgment Day with different outcomes about Jesus.

How many other Gospels are there on Planet Earth, all Man-Made. How many Man-Made Religions All use the Old Testament for their God, and for 'Life' After Death in Heaven teachings?

Now I use the Christian Bible for my High Tech Science Writings, about Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships. Generation Birth, Death And Rebirth, are similar to Reincarnation Religions.

"I think it is far more interesting to consider the possibility of other Universes, instead of just other life within this Universe."

I already accept other Universes, for High Tech Asexual God/Us Male and Female Clones to escape to, when their Universe Collapses into a Black Hole.

There are more than One Black Hole today, and they do Explode with a Big Bang to make a new Universe.

So I have High Tech Science, combined with the High Tech Information in Scripture and Myth.

It is so inspiring to Know Human Life as we Know it, is Eternal on Planets and in Spaceships, in Universes. GODs Elements never die, they just keep going from Invisible, to Visible and back to Invisible, until they Collapse into a Back Hole to begin the process of Life Again.

And until we become a part of Eternal Physical Life, our Elements will be used over and over for Life As We Know it, on Planet Earth, and in our Universe.

High Tech Fallen Humans, if they Live long enough with their High Tech before the Kill their Planet, can make some of the vanished Species found in our New Top Strata, from the Planetary Flood.

So let's get on with the End Times of Prophesied Life on Earth Show, as 'our' Gospel declares.

Greg Swartz

Will Graham decries the posts of the KC”free”thinkers. He says he skips over their posts and suggests that they should set up their own site. As there is already a KCFreeThinkers site, I presume he means that they should set up their own blog or forum.

The truth is that I rarely read all the posts either – scan them instead. I have a couple of concerns:

First, Will, why do you think that this blog belongs to you or any other Christian? True, Bill is a Christian and does run this, but it does link from the Star’s home page. When I was in journalism school, I learned that newspapers were supposed to be neutral and objective, so if this blog is connected in any way to the Star it ought not to belong to any one viewpoint. If this blog is only for Christians, then I propose that the Star link to blogs with competing views?

Second, you seem to think that KCFreeThinkers have a responsibility to set up their own blog. Why do you not set up your own? The cost is modest – about $100 per year – so I am sure you all could pool your resources and come up with that. You do call yourself a “we”, so there are at least two of you.

I have attempted to run a forum on my site, but various malicious persons always have posted trash, advertising, etc., and frankly I do not have the time to monitor that sort of thing. I prefer to read a good book to reading the nonsense that appears on many blogs. As the weather worsens and I cannot work outside, I may revive mine, but no promises. In the meantime, set up your own blog and let people post on your “dime”.

Greg Swartz

Will Graham in his 5:46 a.m. post – my you get up early to get on this blog – once again is making much ado about “some posters” equating the discovery of water on the moon with discovering life on the moon. Since I do not read all the posts in depth, I am not sure who it is that said such a thing. It is obviously wrong.

Certainly, life, AS WE KNOW IT, requires water, but water is not life. As an aside, interestingly, Thales, considered to be the founder of Greek philosophy, thought that the most elementary substance was water. He was wrong and humans are still trying to figure out a theory of everything.

What is important is that having water on the moon makes it much easier to set up a moon base for humans, should we choose to do so. But, I doubt that we will find aliens or any life on the moon.

Nevertheless, I am sure that some evangelical religionist is out there fundraising so they can send a missionary group to the moon just as soon as they can! I am not serious, of course, but then I guess I have listened to Bott Radio way too much!

Dolores Lear

Who will be Judged on Judgment Day on a Fallen Planet? Males and Female? Children? Or just Celibate Virgin Males to make the 144,000 to be taken to the New Planet with
God/Us Celibate Males, in our Image, and Jesus a Celibate Virgin Male is recorded in Revelation?

Many Religions use Revelation to examine for the Life in End Times on Earth, and Movies are made also, so many different Interpretations are made. And Celibate Virgin Males are prominent in the writings, but rarely used.

Our Planet today, it is loaded with Celibate Virgin Male Monks. So there must be a connection to God/Us Male Celibate/Virgin Clones, and Jesus a male Celibate/Virgin Male.

Adam and his group of 144,000 Virgin Celibate Males, must be the amount of new Humans to start a new Planet, with their Female Clones made when the Males get to the new Planet.

The Bible is a High Tech Hand Book for Eternal Physical Celibate Life on Earth, After Birth, until the High Tech Society needs to Colonize another Planet.

I accept that the Male and Female Celibate Clone Helpmeets, Both go to a new Planet, when they need a new Home Planet. But only Virgin Males go to a New Planet from a Fallen Planet.

How often these Celibate Male and Female Humans go to a New Planet, to make it possible for Eternal Physical Life After Birth, is not in the Scriptures I have read so far, except for Eternity.

But the God/Us Clones do keep trying to Green Up their Universe, until they Move On to a New Universe. They do have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

My King James Bible, Scripture, and Myth tells me so with a High Tech Translation.

Red Biddy

You gotta love it when Christians start criticizing one another's theology !
JT to-day:
Jesus is not a man, Bill. Jesus is part of God. And that part of God became flesh and dwelt among us. Clearly, the only way to God is through God Himself, not through some man who was appointed the job of reconciling man to God.

Your theology is incredibly weak on this, Bill.

I don't think it is "clear" at all JT, that "the only way to God is through God himself........don't you end your prayers with the words "THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord".....rather implies you are in need of an intercessory doesn't it ?

Just Thinking

It's good that you're questioning, Red. It means that you're interested. You probably did not know that Jesus is Creator God. And that certainly changes everything. The person of Jesus was God who became flesh and lived among us. But Jesus is no longer flesh, of course. If you come to God through Jesus, then you come through God. It is through God that you come to God. Who else would it be through? Who else could make such a claim? Who else could claim to forgive sin?

Jesus - Creator God became flesh and lived among us.
John 1:1-3
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Red Biddy

Sounds as if the Jesuits are already planning on sending missionaries to outer space if intelligent life is ever discovered on another planet !
But what if life on other planets has evolved way ahead of ours and have no religion at all or some kind of religion very, very different from ours ?
A new theory of religion was expounded on by anthropologist Stewart Elliott Guthrie in his book "Faces in the Clouds". Guthrie says religion is best understood as systematic anthropomorphism - that is, the attributes of human characteristics to nonhuman things and events. i.e. we created God in our image - not the other way round, because we don't have any other frame of reference, except ourselves !
Poor Will G is already getting in a panic that "those intelligences are hostile to God AND the human race" because the Bible says so !
I think it would be tremendously exciting if we found intelligent sentient beings somewhere "out there". But the universe is so vast it's unlikely we'll ever find them or that they will every find us.

Just Thinking

The other issue is sin. Perhaps there are places that were never corrupted by sin, where the question of 'salvation' does not arise. Salvation from what?

If there was another world where beings were in need of salvation, then God could become flesh and dwell among them, if that were His plan. Perhaps that would be God's plan, and perhaps it would not be. How would we know?

Salvation does not come here through a person. Salvation comes through God. God became flesh and lived among us as part of that plan for the human race.

Red Biddy

Frank Schaeffer (on the Rachel Maddow show) talked about evangelical fundamentalists using biblical verses against President Obama.

Psalm 109.v 8 "Let his days be few; and let others take his office.
v 9 "Let his children be fatherless and his wife a widow."

These words are being marketed as bumper stickers, T shirts - even a Teddy bear !

Hear all about it on:-

Red Biddy

I was wondering why you considered Bill's theology "weak" to-day ?
You haven't really explained.
Bill stated in one of his blogs that he was a Trinitarian. So I thought this meant that "God" was divided into three: Father, Son and Holy what's your problem with that ?

Jesus's last words were "Father forgive them, they know not what they do" and "Abba (father again) into your hands, I commend my spirit"
If Jesus was God who made himself flesh (human) and lived among us, was he talking to himself on the cross ?

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