Let us spray, said the gardner: 11-16-09
Does E.T. need Jesus? 11-18-09

Messages in a rainbow: 11-17-09

Rainbow-3 
ABIQUIU, N.M. -- So for most of the afternoon the other day I had been sitting at my laptop in the back room of the small Ghost Ranch library here, working away while alternately watching the sun light up the hill out the window to my left and listening to rain dink-dink on the opaque skylight window overhead.

Rainbow-2

Eventually I needed a stretch. So I went out the front door and ran into a chilly drizzle. So I went up to my room, grabbed my umbrella and wind-breaker and came back out. I walked down the path for about five minutes when the combination of sun and drizzle made me think there must be a rainbow somewhere in sight.

I turned around and saw the brightest, most spectacular rainbow I've ever seen in my life. In terms of brilliance, it even beat the wonderful rainbow I somehow arranged to appear over Honolulu in 1986 for my older daughter's 14th birthday.

But I had left my camera back in my room. So I sprinted through the mist and retrieved it, praying I would not be too late to capture this light show.

As you can see, I made it in time to take these photos.

I am not a biblical literalist. So in the story of Noah and the flood, I look for more allegorical or deeper meaning than the idea that God promised never to destroy Earth by flood again, a promise sealed by the rainbow's occasional appearance.

So when I see rainbows, what I think about is not whether Noah put two of each animal on the ark or whether the flood was planetary or local or just a myth. What I think about instead, as a Christian is God's faithfulness. That means different things to different people. To me it means that I am never beyond the reach of God's love.

What do rainbows say to you?

Rainbow-5

* * *

MORE THINKING ABOUT FORT HOOD

When Eboo Patel was in Kansas City last week, he was asked more than once about his reaction to the shootings at Fort Hood. He has encapsulated some of his thinking about this in this entry at the Washington Post's "On Faith" blog site. I think we'll all know better how to think about Fort Hood once we know more about the background and thinking of the man charged in the murders. Until then, a lot of the anti-Islam trash talk is just prejudicial speculation.

Comments

Will Graham

Bill, you seem concerned about "anti-Islam trash talk". How about the anti Christian trash talk, actually libel, that one poster engaged in yesterday by saying that believers were brainwasing their children? (You obviously were restrictly replies to that yesterday; it remains to be seen what will happen today.)

That form of trash talk actually fits in well with the New Atheist agenda of calling the teaching of religion to children child abuse; a frequent declaration of Richard Dawkins (another favorite of the local anti Christians) and Daniel Dennet.

Its true that such favorites as Daniel Dennet want to teach about different religions to children, but they have a real problem with parents teacing their OWN religious views to children.

And, ironicially, although they claim to favor SEPARATION of Church and state, this is an area where they actually want the STATE to get involved.

Why would atheists such as Dawkins and Dennet want children taught about religion? So that children will, early on, be given the idea that since their are different religions, and they often disagree, then they must all be wrong since they can't all be right...and that is exactly what KCF (or Iggy or whoever uses that sign in) was claiming yesterday. (As a logical exercise, KCF's view is of course a Non Sequitur and a form of Circular Argument, but that is glossed over.)

The idea that they simply want to "educate" the children is disingenous and they, and their allies, know it.

Will Graham

I am amused, by the way, that the atheists and their allies are so excited about the "GOD GENE".

If this were in fact a reality, then it would just be another Nail In the Coffin of their idea of "FREE WILL".

Just Thinking

The Fort Hood incident comes down this: Each of us has a spirit with free will to make choices that can affect our lives and the lives of others. Some give into selfish choices, and others choose to follow a different path of love.

There's no way to know what choice another person will make. People who look for natural explanations of free choice won't find them. Sure, there may have been influencing factors, such as being raised in an environment of abuse or hatred, but plenty of people are raised in worse and they won't make the same wrong choices. Choices transcend natural coercion, and reveal the heart of a person. And we can't blame our bad choices on anyone other than ourselves, regardless of circumstances. Our consciences tells us that, too.

Each individual has the God-given ability to alter their lives and others' lives through choices, and some people choose the cheap way which demands that others obey us or die. When will people learn that it's not coercion that changes people? Choices aren't determined by coercion. Even if behavior is temporarily modified in coercion, it is not lasting when choices are not made in the spirit. It is love that changes people, because it is in love that the spirit makes lasting choices. And each of us has the choice to offer love that will enable others to live in love instead of basking in hatred.

A person who lays down their own life for a righteous cause has more power to affect people than those who threaten death to get their way. Martin Luther King, Jr., Ghandi and others have shown us this is true.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill wrote>>>>>>But I had left my camera back in my room. So I sprinted through the mist and retrieved it, praying I would not be too late to capture this light show.

Bill, did you really "pray" while getting your camera? "God, please, let me take a photo" - "direct" call to god

Or you said "God, I hope I still get to take a photo?" - this is not really a prayer, is it, more like a rehtorical question/statement.

What rainbow means to me? - surely, not "covenant" of god with humanity. Rainbow is a "natural" phenomenon that happens under "certain" natural physical conditions and can be duplicated and replicated - it looks cool and different.

For Bible Thumpers, rainbows must have existed virtually always on "modern" Earth - when conditions are right, enough light, enough water vapors in the air and you look at the right angle, you get it.

Unless you are a literalist and claim "exclusivity" of rainbow to Noah and that it apparently did not exist before (i.e. laws of optical phisics were different then drastically) one can just sit back and look at the world and sip lemonade/coffee.

So, Bill, did you "really" pray while getting your camera? Or this is an "expression"?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

When a child dies, faith is no defense
by Jonathan Turley, Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/13/AR2009111302220.html

"Suffer little children to come to me." So begins one of the most cited passages in the Bible. Yet, in cases involving the deaths of children in faith-healing families, the second half of Jesus's admonition from Luke 18:16 is at the heart of legal controversy: ". . . and forbid them not."

In the past 25 years, hundreds of children are believed to have died in the United States after faith-healing parents forbade medical attention to end their sickness or protect their lives.
___________________
Godless Billboard Moved After Threats

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/Godless-Billboard-Moved-After-Threats/W0iGN9STXUW0m6VF2g2Xeg.cspx

CINCINNATI -- In the wake of multiple, significant threats, the downtown billboard that says “Don’t Believe In God? You are not alone” came down early Thursday morning. It was sufficient to learn that multiple, significant threats had been received and that Lamar would act quickly to alleviate the problem.
___________________
COMPLEXITY EXPLAINED: 9. How Did Complex Molecules Like Proteins and DNA Emerge Spontaneously?

http://nirmukta.com/2009/11/13/complexity-explained-9-how-did-complex-molecules-like-proteins-and-dna-emerge-spontaneously/

Note: For previous parts to Dr. Wadhawan’s series on complexity check out the ‘Related Posts’ found at the bottom of this article.

How could the blind forces of Nature create large and highly information-laden molecules like DNA and proteins just by random processes?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

"Re: Faith Based healing"... A most recent case was in Wisconsin when husband and wife prayed over girl with diabetis who died. They both were found guilty and sentenced (a weird sentence of spending 30 days a year in jail for 5-10 years each and 10 year probation)

A question for my fellow bloggers who are religious:

Assuming the religious parents who let their children die sincerely believed that prayer would heal them, what is it they did, exactly, that is morally wrong?

They are clearly "sincere" in the "moral" following of their god? What Biblical quotes should they cherry pick over the "moral ones" they are using to avoid children dying?

Let's also consider "morals" of Christian Scientists while we are at it? Are their principles "moral" of not taking any medications - perhaps, when it doesn't involve other people, kind of reliigious form of "assisted suicide?"

Maybe when that Al Qaeda commander who is going to be tried in New York City for masterminding 9/11 arrives, he should state his actions were "faith-based" and ask for a lighter sentence.

I hate to hear of children dying because of the absurd beliefs of their parents but where does one draw the line? - wherever the local prosecutor wants to draw it? Do we prosecute not only extreme religious beliefs but also people who follow homeopaths, chiropractors, nutritionists, etc.?

In my opinion the only solution is that critical thinking and reasoning must be taught. It's the only hope. I don't have a problem to "brainwash" children in that and also offer "general religious" studies in schools - let the parents who want to "brain wash" them with their own religion then argue with rationality and history.

The bottom line is "rational" here - The morally wrong act of the parents was neglecting their parenting duties to their children. This is the "bird's eye" view.

Of course, in some ways one can always argue that technically, the criminally negligent parents were probably already brought up in a similar religion and never really allowed to develop their cognitive faculties, so really, the grandparents are at fault, or their parents, or... - but then, where does that end? Thinking like that leads us to supid notions like original sin.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Re: Faith healing and rationality...

From the article on faith healing above... - even the judge is a in a state of denial... "During their sentencing, Marathon County Circuit Court Judge Vincent Howard said the Neumanns are "very good people raising their family who made a bad decision, a reckless decision." He then gently encouraged them to remember that "God probably works through other people, some of them doctors."

Parents whose children die in modern day and age from faith based healing use their child as a pawn in their game of belief.

For a contrarian view consider this statement "God... When reality based thinking is not enough" - can be read either way. Either "pro-God" or "anti-God"

Taking a "presupposition" that we all (religious and non-religous) agree that "reality/physical world exists" (take the rainbow for example as today's topic by Bill) we have to accept that FOR ALL OF US "REALITY BASED THINKING" IS ENOUGH - waking up, brushing our teeth, going to bathroom, not getting killed by a passing car, taking care of your kids, etc, in short "normal" every day activities that "keep us through"

"Supernaturally" based thinking is "enough" for some and is "more than enough" for others.

The "overlapping magesteria" of "supernatural" is just that - for some crazies it is "libel", "offensive", "aggressive", "disrespectful."

To them I say - grow up - we live in a "natural world". Don't pray in my kid's school and I will not think in your church.

Dolores Lear

Bill:
"I think we'll all know better how to think about Fort Hood once we know more about the background and thinking of the man charged in the murders. Until then, a lot of the anti-Islam trash talk is just prejudicial speculation."

An e-mail I received today.
Muslims in America: What is the meaning of the Ft. Hood tragedy? OurValues.org. Join the conversation!"

On a High Tech Equal Birth Planet, of Equal Purebred Male and Clone Female Caretakers, like our High Tech God/Us Humans Ancestors, there Is Peace and Good Will, to All Life on their Planet.

They do Not Reproduce Misbred Unequal Male and Female Children, all trained up in the Way they should go, with a Divided Society, High Tech Purebred Equal Humans, have High Tech Eternal Physical Life on Planets and Spaceships.

Sin and Death came into Planet Earth's World Lifestyle, when the Clone Helpmeets Reproduced Heterosexual Misbred Heterosexual and GLBT Children. The Results: Greed, Envy, Killing, Rape, Pollution, War, and the Ruin of our Eco System and Ozone Canopy.

So how will President Obama, and the USA handle the Ft. Wood problem, the Prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, the the Invasion of Iraq, and Afghanistan, and all the Different Citizens of Governments and Religious Humans on Planet Earth?

Impossible, with our Nuclear Weapons on land and sea, set up for the Last Days 'Arm'ageddon?

Eternal Physical Life is for the Living Equal High Tech Purebred, Male and Female Human Clones After Birth, like our High Tech God/Us, on Planets and in Spaceships.

So What Do Misbred Body Birth Humans On Earth, Do Now? Kill our Home Planet and All the Life on it?

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Rainbows are indeed beautiful. A few times I have seen double rainbows. I don’t believe that makes me special in any way. When I was a kid I use to make rainbows spraying a garden hose. I use to do it for my daughters and have done it accidentally. Does that make me a god? If so I suppose I should have a reason for it. Mmmm, a reason?, a purpose? Okay, this is a sign to tell people to stop trying to force their belief system on their children and other children. AND (mine is a two parter) and teach the history, history only, of the major religions, not as an actual life doctrine. Show how these religions formed. This can be done without saying these are true or not, pretty simple.

Oh, Bill. Children praying for a few crumbs of food, but instead die? Women raped as Yahweh watches and watches farther as these women are maliciously dismembered? So, God took out time so you can take a photo of a rainbow? Nice photo, Bill, but divinely captured?
Bill posted, “Until then, a lot of the anti-Islam trash talk is just prejudicial speculation.”

There may be more to the story other than the court proceedings, or not. Who knows? Do you think Hasan is praying for ‘whatever’ now? I wonder if his prayers will be answered. I wonder if Allah gave him the right to kill all these people as Elohim, El, YHVH (Yahweh), Yeshua (jesus), El Shaddai, Lord, Lord almighty, Adonai, El Elyon, god and Avinu has done so many times.
Continued

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

continued

I think god should stop commanding people to murder and do it all himself. I wonder if this would help with wars?

Deuteronomy
20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
(20:13-14)
"And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself."
In the cities that god "delivers" to you, kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword.... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself."
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
(20:16-17)
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth ... as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee."
Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies.
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

This is really cool. Nature, go figure.

Face-Off With a Deadly Predator
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxa6P73Awcg

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Dolores Lear

I left out this information in my former post.

Wayne E. Baker.
"Is the alleged shooter at Ft. Hood a "stressed solider" or "terrorist"? Two themes are emerging in the debates - the first views the tragedy at Ft. Hood as a wake-up call about the pressure cooker in which our military serves. The other is an implicit indictment of Islam in America. We'll explore these themes this week on OurValues.org. Join the conversation!"

JT:
" Even if behavior is temporarily modified in coercion, it is not lasting when choices are not made in the spirit."

And Wars and Rumors of War begin with Humans, with behavior problems from Body Birth.

Iggy:
"How could the blind forces of Nature create large and highly information-laden molecules like DNA and proteins just by random processes?

Iggy:
"Of course, in some ways one can always argue that technically, the criminally negligent parents were probably already brought up in a similar religion and never really allowed to develop their cognitive faculties, so really, the grandparents are at fault, or their parents, or... - but then, where does that end? Thinking like that leads us to stupid notions like original sin."

What makes Humans Evil? Is it Time to Know the Truth that Will set us Free from Misbred Bodies, Flesh Lust, greed, Killing, and Inhumanity to our Brothers/Sisters and the Life on our Home Planet?

Susan

Bill, one thing that rainbows symbolize to me, is God's faithfulness in sending splashes of joy and color into our lives, even at times when we are dealing with some really gray and grueling circumstances.

I still remember when we took a trip to California when I was 8, and one time we walked across the border into Mexico. A little girl and a woman came up to to us entreating us about something in Spanish, they seemed really upset, and my parents shepherded us past them, and when we got into a restaurant my mother explained that they were really poor and were asking for money, but she was afraid if my dad had pulled out his wallet, a man would have jumped out from nowhere and robbed him.

I just sat there crying, my mom even ordered Cokes for us which we usually weren't allowed to have, to cheer me up. And I just sat there thinking I couldn't enjoy it with those hungry people out there, and I honestly didn't think I could ever feel happy again. But then I looked around and saw other peole laughing and having a good time, even though there were hungry people outside -- so I realized that I would be happy again, too. And then I went ahead and enjoyed my Coke.

I think God knows we can't bear up under endless sadness. And he gives us each what we need to smile again and move forward. But at the same time, He keeps reminding us that there's suffering out there that we can do something about.

Susan

A couple of times here, someone has questioned my wisdom in taking my children to kcfreethinking events. And I've said before, and will say again, we have NEVER encountered any unpleasantness at any of these gatherings. My husband and oldest daughter had a great time at their movie night at Black Dog this past Saturday. And there were some other kids there this time, too!

About Daniel Dennett, he seems to be in favor of parents continuing to share their religious beliefs with their children, so long as it's not a belief-system that promotes hate or intolerance, and so long as it doesn't involve shutting children off from information about the world. I think he made one more point ...

But I am paraphrasing from memory here, because I finished "Breaking the Spell" and returned the book to Cole. Maybe Cole can help me with my accuracy re: Dennett's views on this (it's in the last chapter, under the section "What shall we tell the children?").

I strongly favor children getting to learn about all of the world's religions and their histories, and I definitely think this should be covered in schools. I'm just not sure how you'd "make sure" that homeschooling kids were getting access to the same kinds of information, without increasing governmental surveilance of homeschooling families, which would be an awful thing to do.

As I've shared before, I really like the freedoms we homeschoolers currently enjoy here in Missouri. For my part, my children's education is possibly even more liberal and tolerant of diversity than the one they'd be getting in some public schools. And I know some other homeschooling families who are just as consientious about facilitating their children's access to information. And none of us want increased government regulation.

Just Thinking

KCFreeThinkers.org, while you're busy examining the wrong choices of others, don't forget to look at your own choices. That's called consciousness, and it's related to conscience.

You can overcome what happens to you in this "natural world" by making correct choices of your own.

You can't make choices for others. But you can alter the future through your own choices. And if your example is a good one, then others may choose to follow.

Psalm 19: The Words of my Mouth and the Thoughts of my Heart ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_65YH9LVuA

Susan

Bill, when considering the need for us to avoid "trash talk" about others whose beliefs we don't understand, another childhood memory came to me.

My dad had parked somewhere he shouldn't downtown, or maybe he didn't put enough money in the meter -- and the car got towed. So we had to drive through a "really bad neighborhood" to get to the the tow-lot and pick it up. Before setting out, my parents made sure all our car door were locked and the windows were rolled up tight.

I found myself fascinated, and as we got to the "really bad neighborhood" I eagerly scanned the dark streets for a look at these wild, evil people who maybe were going to leap on our car and try to get to us. I finally got a glimpse of something ... a little black boy standing in the lighted doorway of a house, with his grandmother standing behind him.

I said, "Mother these people aren't bad! They have grandmothers, just like we do!" And she explained how most of the people living there were really good people, but some criminals lived there, too. And maybe she or my dad said something about how the criminals could get away with more there, because of there not being as much money to pay the police, or maybe that was another conversation.

Anyhow, it all seems to come back to not shutting our children off from the world. The more kids grow up learning that most people in every religious or ethnic group are good, caring, honest people, the less propensity they will feel to trash any group. And Cole said something once about eating one another's food, too. That's always a great place to start!

Dolores Lear

Bill:
"I look for more allegorical or deeper meaning than the idea that God promised never to destroy Earth by flood again, a promise sealed by the rainbow's occasional appearance."

The Planetary Noah Flood, lasted over 1 year.
Genesis 9:11 KJV. "And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth."

We have had very destructive Floods since, but not another Planetary Flood.

In the beginning, the water vapor around Earth was separated, half going above the firmament/atmosphere and half going to the ground area for a sea.

The water above, made an Ice Canopy to help the Ozone Canopy keep out the Sun's ultraviolet rays.

During the Flood the Ice Canopy fell, and with more Radiation, the Life years of Humans went from over 900 years, to 70 years After the Flood.

The Ice is at our Poles. I hope Science soon, will prove there was the Ice Crystal Canopy that fell to Earth, near Central America, not a Meteor.

Genesis 9:12a,13a, 15b. "And God said: This is for the token of the covenant which I made between me and you - I do set my bow in the cloud, - ;and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh."

Without the Ice Canopy, there cannot be another Planetary Flood. The Next Planetary Catastrophe is the Planetary Fire Destruction, set up by Fallen Humans. Body Birth Humans cause these Planetary Destructions, not God/Us High Tech Peace Humans.

Visible and Invisible Life, and High Tech Human Clone Life, Continues Eternally in GODs Universes.

Why Not? The Bible, Scriptures, Myth, and Science tells us so.

Dolores Lear

Will:
"I am amused, by the way, that the atheists and their allies are so excited about the "GOD GENE"."

The God/Us Perfect Male and Female Asexual Celibate Clones in Genesis, 'in the beginning', did Reproduce Asexual Celibate Male and Female Clone Humans; the Female from the Male Rib.

The Asexual God/US Male and Female Celibate Equal Clones, began Reproducing Defective Humans By Body Birth. Result: Misbred Heterosexual and GLBT Children.

This is recorded in Genesis 1,2. Eternal GOD GENE Genetic Physical Purebred Life After Birth, is High Tech Human Fact, not understood by Body Birth Humans in their Handed Down Religion and Myth.

Heterosexual, and GLBT Children, are not Reproduced by the God Us Perfect Genetic Human Clones, in Genesis.

GOD, the Creator of the Elements, visible and invisible, does join the Elements together in Life Species. Whatsoever GOD joins together, let not Killer Humans put asunder.

Will:
"I am amused, by the way, that the atheists and their allies are so excited about the "GOD GENE. If this were in fact a reality, then it would just be another Nail In the Coffin of their idea of "FREE WILL".

What is the Planetary Idea of Human FREE WILL, that was Misused by the Original Male and Female Purebred Clones, who Began the Original Sin of Reproducing Defective Misbred Children, in the Female Womb?

JT:
"Each of us has a spirit with free will to make choices that can affect our lives and the lives of others. Some give into selfish choices, and others choose to follow a different path of love."

Does Earth Prove Humans have a spirit with free will, or are Humans Flesh Lust Free Will Choices determined by the Way they were brought up with their Parents Way, taught to them as a Child?

Was this Body Birth Free Will for Human Killing, part of the Problem for the Bombing at New York, at Guantanamo Bay, and at Ft. Wood?

Continued.

Dolores Lear

Continue.

Was this Body Birth Free Will for Human Killing, part of the Problem for the Bombing at New York, and at Ft. Wood?

JT:
" ..we can't blame our bad choices on anyone other than ourselves, regardless of circumstances. Our consciences tells us that, too."

Blaming Humans on their bad choices that come from bad choices of Human Reproduction, Does our Conscience ever question what we are told as Truth, as a Child? Does anyone ever wonder why do I do some of the things I do? Why can I not be like others?

Heterosexual Body Birth, Our Parents, and the Environment Children are born in, is the Blame of our bad choices. Society Guilt Practices also harms Children as they develop. Being told you are a Bad Child does not change our Genetics and Environment.

Body Birth Planetwide Free Will results in Human Hate, Greed, Killing Each Other and our Home Planet. Humans, Misbred by Body Birth, Use Religion and Myth as Truth, Handed Down as Truth, by Humans that lost their High Tech Science.

We do Know the Truth today, that Humans can be Reproduced in a High Tech Lab, like the God/Us Humans in our Image, and the Adam and Eve Perfect Human Clones, 'in the beginning', in Genesis.

So Why Waste all our High Tech Knowledge today, on Nuclear Pollution and Bombs, Made with our Free Will, while the Life and our Home Planet are Dieing?

Why not use some Human Energy to Translate Religion and Myth with High Tech Science today, and use it for Good instead of for Evil?

Eternal Physical Life is for the High Tech Living Purebred Human Clones, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Susan

Will, it's not just Atheists and "allies" (whatever you mean by that) who are excited about the God gene. I still recall, a while back, hearing a preacher enthusing over how scientists have now discovered a God-center in our brains. Preachers get pretty excited about science when they think it proves something in their theology. And who wouldn't?

Are you saying you're not excited, Will? All I can say is, that's just too bad for you. Learning is exciting, whenever you decide you're ready to jump in there.

Cole, I LOVED that video about the compassionate leopard seal. I plan to show it to my family later, and I hope everyone here will take a moment to watch it. If predators are willing to look out for other predators -- then by gum we humans can do a better job of looking out for one another!

trapblock

The rainbow is a sign of God's covenant with man. So in a way it's like the EuchArist where we renew the covenant...
Or you can choose to ignore the covenant and our God that wants to be a father to us.

Susan

Just a reminder -- tonight at 7 on channel 19.1, is the last of the Nova three-part series on Becoming Human.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Cole wrote>>>>>This is really cool. Nature, go figure.
Face-Off With a Deadly Predator
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxa6P73Awcg

I wonder where the "morals" of this deadly predator come from? I wonder what our "intelligent design" and "theistic" brothers and sisters will say about this?

Does this leopard seal have morals/ethics/altruism or not? This guy was being 'fed" with pinguins for 4 days by this female with deadly teeth? - have you seen those teeth?

Check this video of a leopard seal "playing with a pinquin" - it's short 1 min in German, but you'll get the gist - it's playing with it like a "mouse" and then lets it go.

I wonder if this is this seals' Sabbath - when he's resting? Reminds me of Yahweh and Jesus playing with people's minds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RDeegucCD8

This one here reminds me of how Jesus will show up in the Book of Revelation and "eat" your children! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxZ9tJrcUJE&feature=related

Red Biddy

Bill said that he feels that he is never "beyond the reach of God's love".
It's one of the things that tends to come up when people knock on my door to proselytize about their faith, and invariably make me feel guilty because I am incapable (and say so) of loving God back !
I'm sure feeling that the "God loves you" thought is very comforting to some, but does not compute at all with "Nature and Nature's God" as Thomas Jefferson put it in the Declaration of Independence.
Cole's seal video was delightful.....the seal obviously "thought" that the camera man was one of her "kind" maybe even a baby seal and needed looking after. Sweet ! But not so sweet for the penguins she kept killing to feed him with !
It was the cruelty and indifference of nature (red in tooth and claw !) that really bothered Charles Darwin when doing his research into natural selection.

Harry

This seems to fit with much of the discussion here:

Evolution of the supernatural

Nicholas Wade
journalist, author

When a human behavior is ancient and universal, it's reasonable to suspect it may be part of the mind's innate furniture, placed there by evolution because it favored survival.

Religion is found in every society in the world, so is the human mind wired up to believe in gods, and if so does this diminish the value or standing of religion?

I believe there is an instinct for religious behavior, and that we can now reconstruct how and why it evolved. But there's no compelling reason why people of faith should be offended by this concept unless, as fundamentalists, they object on principle to any proposal thrown up by the theory of evolution.

Most faiths accept evolution and if believers allow that God, through evolution, has shaped every aspect of the human body, there is surely no reason why the mind too should not have been prepared by evolution to believe in a Creator.

Continues at http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/11/evolution_of_the_supernatural.html?hpid=sec-religion

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