A realistic hope: 10-20-09

Last weekend in my book column here on the blog, I mentioned Donald Miller's new book, A Million Miles in a Thousand Years.

Today I want to return to that book to share with you some good thoughts about the futility of utopian thinking -- which has always and forever gotten humanity into trouble, though I don't for a moment want to dismiss the idealistic motives behind such thinking. In some ways, religion encourages utopian thinking, but such thinking makes sense only in an eternal perspective. Where people get off track is when they expect some kind of perfection in this life.

Miller, in chapter 29, is discussing his belief that "I simply don't believe utopia is going to happen. I don't believe we are going to be rescued. I don't believe an act of man will make things on earth perfect, and I don't believe God will intervene before I die, or for that matter before you die."

Then he considers what utopian thinking -- imagining some humanly perfected society or individually achieved perfect condition -- has wrought:

"If you think about it, an enormous amount of damage is created by the myth of utopia. There is an intrinsic feeling in nearly every person that your life could be perfect if only you had such-and-such a car or such-and-such a spouse or such-and-such a job. We believe we will be made whole by our accomplishments, our possessions, or our social status. It's written in the fabric of our DNA that life used to be beautiful and now it isn't, and if only this and if only that, it would be beautiful again."

Well, mostly I agree with that, but let's not limit our thinking to only human possibilities. Let's also consider divine possibilities. In the sacred texts of Judaism and Christianity, "life used to be beautiful and now it isn't," as Miller notes. The Garden of Eden story -- sacred myth, if you will -- describes that original perfection and then the fall from grace. But in Christian terms, there is an ultimate hope that, in the end, God will indeed make all things beautiful again -- not by what humanity does or achieves but, rather, by divine initiative.

And yet Miller is right that if we somehow think God is going to fix everything by a week from Tuesday, we're setting ourselves up for disappointment, loss of faith and unrealistic living. He writes:

"Growing up in church, we were taught that Jesus was the answer to all our problems. (Well, maybe Miller was taught that; I wasn't, not exactly.) We were taught that there was a circle-shaped hole in our heart and that we had tried to fill it with the square pegs of sex, drugs, and rock and roll; but only the circle peg of Jesus could fill our hole. I became a Christian based, in part, on this premise, but the hole never really went away. To be sure, I like Jesus, and I still follow him, but the idea that Jesus will make everything better is a lie. It's basically biblical theology translated into the language of infomercials. The truth is, the apostles never really promise Jesus is going to make everything better here on earth. . . .What I love about the true gospel of Jesus, though, is that it offers hope."

That's what I love about it, too. Yes, it offers hope for this life but the hope is not that all problems will disappear but, rather, that we will not be alone as we go through our problems. Miller has figured out that difference. Good for him.

* * *

SLAMMING THE GOOD BOOK

A former Nobel literature prize winner says the Bible is a "handbook of bad morals" and humanity would be better off without it. Just because someone can write great literature doesn't mean he has a clue as to how to read and understand other great writing. 

Comments

[Will Graham]

I notice that the "Nobel Prize Winner" also throws in an anti semitic remark.

What is it with atheists and hating Jews? Is it because they "started the whole thing" like Christopher Hitchens says? Or is it because of the "notorious Jewish lobby" like Dawkins talks about in his Delusional book? Or maybe its just because they refuse to "marry out" (Dawkins) and "assimilate properly" (Sam Harris.)

Whatever it is, they are all moral relativists who believe there is no truth.

We even have a wannabe "New Atheist" who posts here telling us that he is a "moral relativist" and there is no truth and that everything is the result of "chance" acting on "natural law".

And thats the ironic thing.

Notice that atheists, after telling you there is no God to tell you what to do...then want to tell you what to do!

[Dolores Lear]

Bill:
"..religion encourages utopian thinking, but such thinking makes sense only in an eternal perspective. Where people get off track is when they expect some kind of perfection in this life."

The Bible Religious Writings, accepted by Multiple Religions, do give hope for Eternal Physical Life After Death, "in Heaven".

What other Kind of Life is there? Spirit Life? What has Spirit Life to do with Physical Life? God/Us in Genesis 1,2, were in Physical Form, and made Male and Females in their Human Physical Image.

What are Spirit 'Beings', that was taught by Humans without High Tech Science? High Tech Science Humans that can Colonize Planets, and Reproduce a Female Human from a Male Human Rib?

But with our High Tech Science, Today it is Possible for Eternal Physical Life After Birth, to be Alive in a Human Physical Body, on Earths and in Spaceships.

This God/Us Power to Create Life on a Planet like Earth, and Reproduce a Female from the Male Rib, is not Supernatural today, but High Tech Science.

Why those Clone Helpmeets, 'fell' from the Higher Nature of Reproduction, to the Lower Nature of Body Birth Reproduction is not Known.

But Supernatural Creation/Colonization is known today, and Supernatural Creation of Clones is Know today.

Humans do Not have a High Tech Womb to Reproduce the Female from the Male Rib as yet, and we may not get to do this, if Humans continue to Misuse their High Tech, for Toxic Pollution and Nuclear Bombs.

But the Supernatural Powers of God/Us in Genesis, is on Earth again today, as it was 'in the beginning' of Life on Earth.

Continued.

[Dolores Lear]

Continue.

Like Bill says, "Where people get off track is when they expect some kind of perfection in this life."

What is perfection in Life After Death? With High Tech we Know Physical Life Forms at Death, return to the Elements they are made from, named a Religious 'Heaven' by Humans without High Tech.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2007-1527&page=10

http://bibleperversion.com/the_crucifixion/chapter4.asp?page=1

Today, Humans Know Perfect Physical High Tech Life 'could' travel in Spaceships up in the air, like God/Us did in Religious Scriptures and Myths.

John 3:11-13. JV. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen: and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven."

Acts 1:9-11. "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven: this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The Angel's white apparel was Spacesuits. Heaven was translated without High Tech to specify if it was sky or spaceships.

At Judgment Day Jesus and God/Us will return Alive, in the Same Physical Bodies they left Earth, in Spaceships.

[Will Graham]

Some checking indicates that the Nobel Prize Winner who wants to lecture us on Biblical Morals has been making libelous statements about Jews and DISMISSING THE HOLOCAUST for some time now.

http://www.adl.org/presrele/asint_13/4370_13.htm

[Will Graham]

This also indicates that it was no coincidence that the Nobel Prize Committe awarded a Nobel Peace Prize to the terrorist murderer of Jews Yassir Arafat.

Heck, you never know who they will give one to these days!

[trapblock]

Faith doesn't set us free from suffering but sets us free to suffer through Love in a redemptive way.

GK Chesterton wrote, “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

Christian History Denier wrote>>>>>>>>Chuck says he has not stopped looking for evidence of the supernatural. Bladerdash. He explains it away before the fact, saying it is not possible. In fact, when asked what evidence he would accept HE WON'T ANSWER. He just says "God knows what I would accept".

Christian History Denier,

Aren't you, footbal, in constant communication with god? Or your minister? Why don't you ask him to reveal the mind of Chuck to you? Remember ALL YOUR PRAYERS WILL BE ANSWERED - consult New Testament for exact details - "ALL" prayers WILL BE ANSWERED - surely, how you ask for them, not in a convoluted way "you must be kidding" or "in a way you don't expect" - Jebus told you so.

I for one think it's a perfectly acceptable answer - "God knows what I would accept". What do you have a problem with?
________________
Chuck,

I think you are going the wrong way with trying to get Andrew (adamh/Will Graham) come to any meeting with you.

Andrew will never show up on the date and time you or anyone else sets up. He needs to be allowed to make his own time when he is available - this way the burden is on him (when your mouth is cleaned up, when he has a car available, when he is not going to Lawrence to a frat party, when he is not out at the movies, when he is not attending Sunday night study, when someone is not wiping his drewl off, etc).

I'd recommend you "specifically" ask him to set up the time himself- this way "he will finally commit" - at least in his brain. in 2 years I've been reading this blog HE NEVER SHOWED UP AT ANY MEETUPS HE HAS BEEN INVITED TO. NEVER!

I have been reading Andrew's posts online for the past two years and actually I have a feeling Andrew is a mentally challenged individual, who doesn't have a driver's licence and car. I believe, he maybe under care of his parents or guardian. I ran his case by a psychiatrist last year and this year (she read the blog for a few days) and her opinion was that the person may have problems which are beyond his control.

[Chuck Lunney]

It's interesting to hear a Nobel Laureate criticizing a religious text. While much of the Bible can be considered good literature (and some of it not so good), there can definitely be a case made that in many of its books the ethics/morality it teaches about God aren't in line with what most would consider "good". It doesn't take a great writer to recognize that many of the depictions of God in the Bible aren't exemplars of "good morals". I'm reminded of a line from a movie, "With great power comes great responsibility." God, as described, is more like a viscious tyrant who enslaves and tortures his subjects, not a benevolent monarch who cares for them.

Especially in the Old Testament, the God depicted is one who is cruel, vindictive, arrogant, petty, jealous and just plain mean. Anyone who has actually read the Old Testament (let me clarify: read for comprehension) can see that.

Please, some theist (Bill, perhaps), explain why the actions and attributes of the God of the Old Testament are not in most cases ethically identical to the actions and attributes of Saddam Hussein throughout his reign of terror in Iraq. Why is it OK for a God to violate the very basis of human morality, when we condemn even kings and presidents for not a tenth of what is claimed righteous by God?

[Chuck Lunney]

Iggy, please. There is no reason to insult Andrew (or Will or Adam) like that. You DON'T know if he's mentally challenged or has any other condition. Speculation like that is offensive and not appropriate.

Whether or not he shows up to meet people has nothing to do with such things. I still think his/their failure to meet is an indication of immaturity and cowardice, not any medical condition.

Speaking of meetings -- the invitation is still open for all to come meet at Borders (91st and Metcalf) on Sunday evening from 7-9. I'm hoping to discuss (at least a little bit) Dawkins' book, but the conversation will probably ramble away from that within minutes. And I will be personally calling and inviting Jim Christensen today, so hopefully he'll be able to make it (if he's not proctoring study hall).

[Just Thinking]

"... hope is not that all problems will disappear but, rather, that we will not be alone as we go through our problems." - Bill Tammeus

The hope to be with God is present in the faith of those who seek to do what is right. Those who seek the heart of God place their hope in God, in His forgiveness, in His guidance, and in His righteousness that comes by faith in this hope. "God with us" is the meaning of Jesus' name.

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

If we believe that we will be given power by the Holy Spirit to overcome this world, then that hope will not disappoint, because those who seek God by sincerely seeking, "What is the right thing to do?" will be granted power know and to "do the right thing." Without God's renewing Spirit, there is no hope to overcome the sin which traps us, now or eternally. There is eternal escape through forgiveness. There is escape now through renewed free will that comes by the Spirit of God to offer strength, power, and the will to overcome and overpower the sin in our own life. It takes time, strength, determination, and a renewed spirit, but we've all seen those who have been miraculously transformed in this way.

Romans 12:2
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."

1 John 4:4
"You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world."

[Dolores Lear]

Donald Miller:
"The truth is, the apostles never really promise Jesus is going to make everything better here on earth. . . .What I love about the true gospel of Jesus, though, is that it offers hope."

The True Message of the Bible, and all Scripture and Myth, is about High Tech Science Humans that came to Earth, Colonized it, and Reproduced High Tech Humans, the Female a Clone from the Male Rib.

Jesus taught about Celibate Males and Equal Sharing of the Resources, that is the Lifestyle of High Tech Male and Female Asexual Clone Helpmeets.

Until Humans again had High Tech Science, all they could translate of Scripture and Myth, was as Supernatural Gods, and Angels. High Tech is Super'Natural'.

Supernatural Creation and Supernatural Reproduction/High Tech Cloning is by the High Tech Species Humans that Colonized Earth.

Our High Tech Ancestors, God/Us in Genesis 1,2, also brought all the Species to Earth in their Spaceships, in some form in their High Tech Lab.

There was more than One Male, Adam, to begin the Cloning Females from the Males. Earth was Colonized, and did Not Evolve. Humans will be able to translate all Scripture and Myth with High Tech Science.

Many of the unsolvable mysteries of Life on Earth, that Natural Born Humans could Not translate through the Body Birth Centuries, can be Solved.

Possibly where our High Tech Ancestors came from. The Dog Star, Sirius, is one possibility. Even Jupiter in our Solar System is a possibility.

Our Ancestors did reach Earth in their Spaceships, and are still Alive 12,000 years later. And Jesus a Human is with them Alive, 2,000 years later.

Eternal Physical Life is for Alive High Tech Birth Humans, not for All the Dead Body Birth Humans that return to the Elements, on a Dying Body Birth Planet.

[Just Thinking]

You can really see the difference between hedonists who ask, "What can I do to get my way and to please myself?" as opposed to those who seek God by asking, "What is the right thing to do?"

But Christians must remember what they were like before they were set free from the bondages of sin. They must remember back to when they were enslaved by their desires that arose in asking, "What can I do to get my way and to please myself?" They must remember. And they must remember when they slip and fall, too.

True discernment of "What is the right thing to do?" can only come from God, and those who are not seeking God will never learn the right way. They can't. They're enslaved by another way, which crowds out the good way. They develop their own morality which leads to their own pleasure, instead of leading to righteousness.

Only the Spirit of God can bring about lasting change and genuine understanding. Others can only pretend.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

1 Cor 2
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"—but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

[Just Thinking]

Chuck wrote this to KCFreeThinkers.org,

"Iggy, please. There is no reason to insult Andrew (or Will or Adam) like that. You DON'T know if he's mentally challenged or has any other condition. Speculation like that is offensive and not appropriate."

Considering Chuck's recent smear campaign against Will/adamh, that should really tell you something, KCFreeThinkers.org. If Chuck thinks you are *clearly* in the wrong, then that should tell you something, KCFreeThinkers.org. When Chuck thinks what you've done is inappropriate, then you've *reeeeaallly* stepped over the line.

[Chuck Lunney]

JT -- what "smear" campaign? I've merely said that I won't be polite to them, as they are impolite to everyone else (and like you are starting to be).

I have called them liars (backed up by the multiple comments they've made about atheists that are fabrications or outright falsehoods).

I've called them cowards (because they make grandiose boasts and claims, then fail to ever back them up).

I've called them "kids" (because that's what Jim Christensen called them, and I think I can trust him on that).

I've called them obnoxious and offensive (because of the numerous insults and personal attacks they've made over the year).

Now, unlike you, Will, Adam, and Iggy, I back up my claims and opinions with fact and evidence. I also try to not be a hypocrite, and I'll call out offensive and insulting behavior on both sides. I think I read somewhere that one shouldn't mention the mote in another's eye, while ignoring logs in one's own. Seems that little gem of knowledge wasn't read for comprehension by you, JT.

Now, rather than spending time exchanging insults, perhaps you would care to engage in some actual constructive discussion about Bill's blog postings? I've posted several comments over the last few days that don't relate to Iggy, Will or Adam -- why focus on irrelevancies and tangents when you could actually be showing how much theological knowledge you have?

[Just Thinking]

KCFreeThinkers.org wrote:

"I have been reading Andrew's posts online for the past two years and actually I have a feeling Andrew is a mentally challenged individual, who doesn't have a driver's licence and car. I believe, he maybe under care of his parents or guardian. I ran his case by a psychiatrist last year and this year (she read the blog for a few days) and her opinion was that the person may have problems which are beyond his control."

I was really hoping to see some sort of clarification for what you wrote. But apparently you have absolutely no shame for what you're doing.

When you think that someone may have a mental condition of some type, is that how you are accustomed to dealing with them? Torment them? Torture them? Ridicule, harass, and embarass them publicly online? Is that your version of atheist "morality?" What is wrong with you?

You really are a thug and a bully, aren't you? You really have absolutely no interest in doing what is right, do you?

Why in world would anyone want to meet with folks that deliberately pick on and publicly ridicule a person whom they believe has a mental condition of some type? Why in the world would anyone want to follow in the footsteps of anyone who would engage in that kind of behavior?

There's one thing for sure about your reputation, KCFreeThinkers.org: nobody here could POSSIBLY damage your reputation. There isn't anything left to be damaged. Don't you know how people perceive anyone who picks on people in that way? Have you no shame at all? Or have you simply been consumed by your hatred for your fellow man? You are mentally capable. You have NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER.

[Dolores Lear]

JT:
"You can really see the difference between hedonists who ask, "What can I do to get my way and to please myself?" as opposed to those who seek God by asking, "What is the right thing to do?"

What is different between any Human on Earth? They all all Alike, Serving Two Masters, their Human Government in War, and Killing their Planet with Pollution, whether they are Religious or Atheists Humans.

GOD is not a Human, no Human can make the LIFE Elements that make our Universe. To Serve GOD is to be the Caretaker Human Species on a Planet, not the Killer Human Species.

Who Can See any difference between Hedonists that Kill Human Life on Earth, and between Atheists and Religious Humans that Kill Life on Earth Human and Nature?

Only Hypocrites 'say' they are serving God, when they go to their Churches, and think they Serve God in their Temples made by Human Hands, while they Kill GODs Earth Temple.

Only Hypocrites think they are Serving God, with their Mouth Worship, when they Kill Life for their Government, with their Munitions, and Pollute their Planet, just like Everyone Else.

What 'is' the 'Right Thing' to Do?, JT?

Who is going to Take Care of GODs Planet, while Atheist and Religious Humans are busy with Daily Living of Getting, and Playing Church, while they Kill Each Other and their Home Planet?

How much Pollution does 7 Billion Humans make? Who can keep a Clean Planet with that many Polluters?

What is GOD or God/Us or Any Earth God going to do with our Dead Planet? Where is the Human Caretaker Species?

Busy Playing House and Church? Involved in War, Greed, Inequality, and Inhumanity, instead of Sharing GODs Resources, and Being Caretakers of our Earth Home, and All LIFE on Earth?

Where for the Love of GOD, and all Pagan Gods, are the Caretaker Humans of our Home Planet?

[Susan]

Bill, I agree with you that God isn't calling us to just sit back and wait for Jesus to magically fix everything and return us to the good old days. For so many years of my life, I bought into the idea that the past was in some way a gentler, "simpler place in time" (to the tune of Gladys Knight's "Midnight Train to Georgia").

I'm not sure why I was off in la-la land, knowing as I did all the historical realities of racism, and also of barriers against women and people with various disabilities -- all these social conditions have been gradually getting better, but from childhood I've heard about how they used to be so much worse.

It's true that there are side-effects to progress -- but when these happen we need to just figure out how to deal with (or better yet -- prevent) them -- the answer is NOT to try to revert back to the old days. They really weren't that good. So let's cautiously (yet still boldly) keep moving forward, together.

From yesterday -- Adam, I think you and I have different definitions regarding what it means to "stand up to" someone. I feel I have stood up to Iggy by telling him what I think of his choice -- and by NOT crawling under a rock and shutting up or dying myself. Iggy has not stopped me from voicing my opinions.

Actually, the people I see as heroes of the Holocaust, weren't exactly people who got up in Hitler's face and openly "stood up to" him. I feel like they were smart and tried their best to stay alive, while at the same time taking the opportunities they found to help their fellow-men. They took risks to save others, but didn't risk themselves stupidly or unnecessarily.

But, seriously, comparing this blog to Nazi Germany seems more than a little ludicrous. And, no, I don't believe I'd be gunned down if I got up in Iggy's face and told him off.

[adam harrison]

Imagine IGGY telling someone they are mentally challenged! Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A guy who came on here quoting "Hannibal Lector" (a serial killer cannibal from fiction) like it was funny, and talking about "eating Christian brains."

A guy who tells people to SHUT UP and DIE.

A guy who goes around to area ministers and makes up stories just for kicks.

A guy who hassles ministers wives over wearing pants.

Those are all FACTS, CHUCK LUNNEY! FACTS! No lies involved.

And you may say we have been rude, thats your opinion, but we have never threatened people.

So what are we LYING about, CHUCKY?

You are the one who has tried to smear and embarrass Jim after he met with you in good faith. Twice.

So we know you have no sense of honor.

(And by the way, Will and I have both been to meetups. Iggy is lying. Not a very impressive group of people, in my opinion.)

Also, Chucky, I see you totally ignored the posts where will pointed out your Nobel Prize Winners ANTI SEMITISM.

[adam harrison]

By the way, Iggy...have YOU ever posted under the name "Andrew" or "James"?

(As if we didn't already know. LOL!)

[Susan]

Thinking of hope in the midst of sad realities, or sadness in the midst of hope -- I thought I'd mention an amazing guy, Israel Kamakawiwo'ole, who is famous for his medley of "Over the Rainbow" and "What a Wonderful World."

Sadly, he died of weight-related respiratory illness on June 16, 1997, at age 38. He left a wife and daughter.

Here is a link to a wonderful video where he sings his song, and is surrounded by Hawaiian scenes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ltAGuuru7Q

[Red Biddy]

Leonard Pitts wrote a piece in the Star to-day "When conservatives seek a kind of Intellectual Protectionism."
He directed readers to the conservative answer to Wikipeda at
http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page
Apparently the editor of the page, Anthony Schafly (son of Phyllis Schafly - wouldn't you know it !?) wants to remove passages from the New Testament he considers too liberal.
One such would be the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery who Jesus forgave.
Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman in his book "Misquoting Jesus" is of the opinion that many passages were inserted into the Gospels by copyists, I don't know how one can prove or disprove this, but what is interesting is that Conservapedia editor wants to remove these passages because they are too liberal. I guess the Sermon on the Mount will also get the chop !

[Susan]

P.S., the ocean scene at the end of the Israel Kamakawiwo'ole video where thousands of fans are cheering, is the ceremony where his ashes were poured into the Pacific Ocean at Makua Beach. Notice the "IZ lives" sign (Iz was his nickname, short for Israel).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Kamakawiwo'ole

[adam harrison]

KCF, you did give me one good idea!!! A med student I know says he can have a psychatrist review your posts!

He is fascinated by the various characters you choose to reference.

We will DEFINITELY be getting back to you on this one! Hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

[Red Biddy]

Bill wrote to-day that "In some ways religion promotes utopian thinking.....but where people get off track is when they expect some perfection in this life."
I don't know if many people expect perfection in this life, Bill, surely the whole point of any expectation is to try and make things better isn't it ?
As an atheist I have no expectation of life after death therefore as one of my T shirts says "Smile, there is no Hell". It should have also said .....and no Heaven.
I don't know who invented the word "Utopia"...I thought it was St.Thomas More who wrote an amusing book by that name. Scholars are still debating whether he was promoting communism in his writing or mocking the idea of equal ownerhsip of everything.
His idea that silver and gold should be considered just "normal" metals and made into ordinary objects like chamber pots was priceless !
Certainly, as Miller writes in his book the world is not going to be rescued. We are going to have to do it ourselves without any supernatural help.
Bill said he hopes "we are not alone as we go through our problems" - I'm sure that is a comforting thought, like Susan's loving God but for those of us who do believe we are alone - except for one another of course - we have to stand on our own feet and acknowledge that this is is the only life we are going to know and we make the best of it and hopefully improve on it for future generations.

[Susan]

Adam, I distinctly remember Iggy saying simply that he commented to the minister's wife about her choice of continuing to wear pants, one week after a parishioner had cited pants-wearing by women as part of society's problem. And the woman just said she didn't agree with the man who had said that, and that was all.

How is this "hassling?" In case you didn't notice, I previously asked a similar question of Cole when he expressed his opinion that the Holy Spirit raped Mary. I felt Cole's assessment was inaccurate, just as I feel yours is. Cole continues to have his opinion, as I have mine.

And you may continue on in your opinion that asking someone about a clothing choice they've made, is "hassling." I did not get the impression that Iggy thought it was wrong for the woman to wear pants, or that he was trying to make her feel bad about her clothing choice. I think he was just curious about her "take" on the other gentleman's remark the previous week.

I'm just pointing out your choice of words, because I think you should consider the possibility that maybe you're just a bit too addicted to railing off these long lists, for the purpose of driving home whatever point you are trying to make about someone or something (of course, I tend to get your posts jumbled up with Will's in my mind, so maybe he's the main one doing the list-spewing) ...

I think you or Will sometimes embellish stuff just to juice up your list. Sadly, even if you realize you were juicing it a bit in that one comment, you'll probably just go on about the other stuff that is factual -- even though in this 4:51 post you've said "No lies involved." I really think you see no harm in relativistically tweaking the truth a bit when it suits your purpose.