Faithful medical care: 9-4-09
Faith-based humor: 9-7-09

The Holocaust by bullets: 9-5/6-09

My own new Holocaust-related book is not the only one about that subject I want you to know about. I'd also like to recommend to you a book I wasn't aware of until just recently -- The Holocaust by Bullets: A Priest's Journey to Uncover the Truth Behind the Murder of 1.5 Million Jews, by Father Patrick Desbois.

H-by-bullets

Oh, my. Prepare yourself for a difficult but moving read.

Desbois has devoted years now to uncovering the story of the way Germany murdered Jews in the Ukraine and other portions of eastern Europe before Hitler's government decided that shooting them one by one was too inefficient.

That lethal inefficiency led to the creation of the gas chambers in the six death camps in Poland, the country on which my co-author and I have focused in our book.

But before the death camps, in the early 1940s -- indeed soon after the start of the war in 1939 -- Jews often were ordered to dig their own mass graves and then shot one by one to fill those graves. Desbois' estimate, based on considerable on-site research (including gathering shell casings from bullets fired by German weapons), is that about 1.5 million Jews died in this horrible way.

Desbois, a Catholic priest from France, immersed himself in Jewish culture and tradition to try to understand the Holocaust from that perspective and to try to understand the long, sad history of anti-Judaism in Christian history. (For my own essay on that subject, look under the "Check this out" headline on the right side of this page.)

The book describes Desbois' own journey of discovery in which he meets and interviews elderly Ukrainians who, in many cases, had witnessed some of the murders. At one point he describes a circle of these people who stood in front of a burial pit and told of what they knew about the Jews, their neighbors, who died there:

"Every one of them recalled things more horrible than the last. And I stood there, stunned, unable to move, listening to these people delivering the secret of the Shoah in this village. I had only one desire: to scream and beg them to stop. But no one could stop what was happening. Each one of them was narrating, for the first time, the history of the execution of the Jews of Rawa-Ruska, the assassination of young people whose children and parents had already been killed."

And if this passage doesn't jackhammer your heart, you need some help:

"I am convinced there is only one human race -- a human race that shoots two-year-old children. For better or for worse I belong to that human race and this allows me to acknowledge that an ideology can deceive minds to the point of annihilating all ethical reflexes and all recognition of the human in the other. It happened in 1941, 1942, 1943, and 1944, in the very heart of Europe, one of the oldest civilizations in the world that had been shaped by centuries of Christian religious thinking and by the Enlightenment -- yet human beings had stopped recognizing their own fellows! Human beings had not seen that by killing others, they were killing themselves."

I believe it's important for all of us to know as much history as we can, in hopes of finding good models to guide us in our time and place and in hopes of avoiding the evils that have gone before us. History, however, tells me that we're not all that good at either. And yet we must continue to try. Which means, at times, staring this kind of brutish history in the face and acknowledging what our fellow human beings suffered as well as naming the fellow human beings who caused that suffering.

* * *

PUBLIC RESPECT FOR RELIGIONS

The White House held a dinner for Muslims the other night. I like the idea of government officials paying respect to the various religions of Americans and see nothing wrong with such dinners, Christmas decorations, High Holiday greetings to Jews and so forth. I hope our elected officials never get skittish about such things. By the way, the author of the piece to which I've linked you, Eboo Patel, will speak in Kansas City in November as part of the annual KC Festival of Faiths.

* * *

P.S.: Until Tuesday, Sept. 8, my Internet access will be sporadic at best. That means a long time may go by between you posting a comment here and it being published. Thanks for your patience.

* * *

ANOTHER P.S.: Please plan to join me and my co-author, Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn, at one of the two upcoming (Sept. 10 and Sept. 13) events described here to launch our new book, They Were Just People: Stories of Rescue in Poland During the Holocaust. Rainy Day Books will be there to help you buy a copy and you'll even get to meet some of the people whose remarkable stories we tell in the book.
 

Comments

Susan

Bill, I agree with you that we need to always remember the evil our race is capable of -- but also of course to recognize the models of love and justice that rise up in the worst of times. How heartening that a Catholic priest has made this journey of learning about the Holocaust in Eastern Europe. It goes to show that there've always been some in the Christian Church who've refused to subscibe to an anti-Jewish point of view.

A few days ago, I think I shared here about some things I've been learning about Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement. I discovered a Catholic Worker house right here in my neighborhood, and just tonight I went to their monthly clarification meeting. It was about the death penalty.

The speaker was a man not much older than me who served about 24 years of a life sentence for a murder he never committed. It was scary to learn how dangerous it is in this country, the land of the free, to be accused of a crime if you're too poor to get a private lawyer. His court-appointed lawyer didn't care about proving his innocence. She never even bothered to call to the stand the convenience-store clerk who saw the shooting, and knew there was no way this man could be that man, because he was too dark.

His case was pushed right through and after his conviction, the clerk went to someone (the court reporter?) and gave the testimony she'd never gotten to give. Finally, all these 20-some years later, she came all the way back from Florida to testify in his re-trial. (Continued)

Susan

(Continued) The whole case just reeked of injustice. There was no motive, fingerprints, or anything to tie this man to the murder. Just 2 witnesses. It turned out that these 2 men agreed to testify for the police (who wanted to solve the case) in exchange for not having to go to jail for crimes they'd committed. One man felt badly about it later, worrying that this man was going to be executed, and he submitted a statement that he'd lied under oath.

The statement was on-file and was brought to everyone's attention when they had the re-trial -- but had basically just sat there in the file for all these years, the man was never informed about it, and it never occurred to anyone that this (especially added to the clerk's statement) was adequate cause for a re-trial. Apparently it really is all about the money, and this man had no money, though his brother had been trying for years to come up with enough money to pay a lawyer to take his case.

Well, for all these 20-some years, this man wrote hundreds and hundreds of letter to everyone in office who might be in a position to help him. He used up all his appeals, they were denied every time. Though he could have got the death penalty for his crime, the judge in his case had decided to waive it and give him life in prison without parole (if he'd been given the death penalty, he would have been executed in 1998 after his appeals ran out).

Well, all of his life he had never seen any evidence that made him believe in God. And his false conviction and experience of prison wasn't doing anything to change his mind. But then one day, I think in the late 80's or early 90's, he got a letter from an organization called Centurion Ministries, which works to free innocent people, too poor to defend themselves, who are on death row or serving life. They can only afford to take about 2 cases a year (of the millions who write in), and they said if they took his case it would be about 10 years.(Continued)

Susan

(Continued) Well, I think it was after this communication from Centurion, or maybe later when they took the case, that this man started believing in God. He became convinced that God was going to free him. And he started telling everyone, "I'm no longer here in spirit." And God started moving on his heart to forgive everyone who had ever wronged him, just as Jesus had said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

And a year ago he got released. After all those years that's all he got -- I think he said just a handshake and You're free to go. No special help or anything. At least not from the government. That's amazing to me, too. That they could take so many years of someone's life, for a crime they never committed, and then they are just free to go.

But anyhow he has a new future. Back when he got arrested as a young man, he was getting ready to go to college for a Sociology degree. And he is getting ready to go to college now -- I think he still wants the Sociology degree, and then he's going after a law degree so he can help people like him.

Hearing all this makes me wish I had the inclination to become that kind of a lawyer. Just knowing there are all these innocent people, serving life sentences or sitting on death row, just because the police wanted to bring closure to a case so they grabbed someone from a poor neighborhood who couldn't afford a lawyer. I don't get it, even without a lawyer a jury should be allowed to hear all the witnesses -- that one clerk should have cast enough doubt that no jury would send a potentially-innocent person to prison.

I wonder if the legal justice industry is kind of like the death industry -- making all these "avenues" that people have to go through, so all the professionals can make more money. And if they can't make money off you, they don't see why they should bother with you. But anyhow -- God still cared and now this man is free, and he's spreading the word so more people will care and hopefully we can work to fix this awful system.

Will Graham

Bill, his statement that "there is only one human race-a human race that shoots two year old children." is chlling.

But there is, or course, even more-the human race that kills a third of its children before they even get born, a form of human sacrifice to higher values than life itself...such as "choice".

And you are right on that we should know as much history as we can-it is not by accident that atheist trolls seem to want us to forget the past by dismissing or marginalizing tradition or the "old".

Will Graham

Desbois also also says that Europe was shaped by centuries of Christian religious thinking and by the Enlightenment.

He does not seem to understand, or, if he does, he glosses it over, that the Enlightenment encompassed a systematic ATTACK on Christian thinking and weakened Christianity considerably.

Further, I have already shown, although it has been ignored, that Christianity was incresingly weakened as Germany became more and more secular in the decades leading up to the First World War, and even more following it. It was the systematic weakening of Christianity by "higher critics"...with their own agenda...and collaborating theologians that helped the Nazis rise to power, not the other way around.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_and_christianity.html

Blaming Christianity, while ignoring the systematic attacks on it and demands that it stay out of "secualar" government is wanting to have it both ways.

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

PUBLIC RESPECT FOR RELIGIONS

Bill said, “I like the idea of government officials paying respect to the various religions of Americans and see nothing wrong with such dinners, Christmas decorations, High Holiday greetings to Jews and so forth.”

I wonder when people will understand we are on our own. Stop being needy for a sky daddy. Realize we live in the natural world and deal with death. Deal with reality. Support science so we can live longer. After we die there is no guarantee of anything. When will America realize this? The rest of the civilized world is leaving us behind. Wake up America!

Adam said, “Cole, or member, or Igor, or whoever, your alien idea is hardly original; I read it on atheist sites over six years ago.”

I planted that egg over seven years ago. Prove me wrong.

Adam said, “And you keep talking about the NATURAL world, while you type on a computer...computers do not appear in natural world, they are intelligently designed.
All designed by humans, not supernatural winged beings. Pray for a new high tech computer that types before you THINK what you want to say, and see what happens. Get real.

Adam said, “And what are you going on about "sources of morals" for? You are a moral relativist, who likes to quote Nietzsche.”

I only quote what I think is of value. I have said it before and will say it again. I don’t agree with everything thing everybody says. I take the good and extract the bad. That is how we learn. Trial and error. That is science. The only gaps I am concerned with is the gap between your ears. No matter how you try to twist words you can’t prove anything with supernaturalism.

God is a thought who makes crooked all that is straight.
Friedrich Nietzsche

PEACE FOR THE SAKE OF GOODNESS COLE

Dolores Lear

Bill:
"at times, staring this kind of brutish history (Holocaust) in the face and acknowledging what our fellow human beings suffered as well as naming the fellow human beings who caused that suffering."

On Earth, there are Many Different Interpretations of GOD.

Nahum 1:2,3. KJV. "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth: the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet."

This is about the Killer Noah/Atlantis High Tech Society, like Humans are today. Not about the Creator God in Genesis.

2 Thessalonians 1:7,8: "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ;" Is this the Jesus of Christians?

Is God a Spirit 'Being' God, or a Human 'Being' God, in our Image, that walks and talks with Humans?

Before Humans were Reproduced.
Genesis 1:3,6,11,14,20,24,26,29, the verses begin: "And God said,"
Who was God talking to? Each other?

In Genesis 3, 8a,9: (Adam and Eve) "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: - And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, where art thou?"

Is this the GOD that Knows All, or our High Tech Human Ancestors that Colonized Earth?

Continued.

Dolores Lear

Continued.

With Body Birth, there are Human Generations of Birth, Death, and Rebirth through 3 or 4 Generations, that Know each other, and Share their Genetic and Physical Birth Heritage. And these Humans do Reproduce Killers among them. Why? Misbred Genetics and Environment? Who wants to be a Killer?

Why do Human Scriptures record an Evil God, visiting the iniquities of the Children into the third and fourth generation of those that do not Obey and Hate God, and a Loving God showing mercy to those Generations that love God?

Did God reproduce Defective Adam and Eve Humans, 'in the beginning? Why do Humans teach we are All born in Sin? Psalm 51:5. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

1John 3:9,15. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Did God make defective Purebred Adam and Eve Humans, or did the Inherited Killing Human Body Birth Lifestyle and Killing Environment, begin when Adam and Eve Reproduced Misbred Children?

All Wars and the Holocaust, were a result of the Original Sin of Reproducing Humans by Body Birth.

Then Humans began Killing Each Other in Mass Conflicts, and began to Kill our Home Planet's Eco System and Protective Canopies to filter out the Ultraviolet Rays of our Sun.

What do Fallen Humans do then? Call upon All the Resulting Names of the Ever Living LORD God in Genesis, in our Human Image?

Eternal Life is for Living Peace Humans like the LORD God. Dead Humans return to GODs Elements, not to the High Tech Human Living LORD God, with Eternal Human Life After Birth.

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

The worse genocides of the 20th century:
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

Adam and Will, and others, will contribute this to atheism. They can’t get out of the box and do not understand percentages, because next they will quote numbers.

This is why I could never adhere to faith, religion, god. Such narrow thinking. Status Quo. Don’t question authority. Live as bronze age people.

Iggy is right. A rock will be good for you. Crawl under it and pull the blanky over your head so the boogey man doesn’t get you.

The Evolution of Religion
http://www.livescience.com/culture/etc/090512-the-evolution-religion.html

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Dolores Lear

Will:
"It was the systematic weakening of Christianity by "higher critics"...with their own agenda...and collaborating theologians that helped the Nazis rise to power, not the other way around."

The Christian Majority of Citizens, helped the USA become the World Power today, that bombed two Cities in Japan with Atom bombs, and now has the most Nuclear Bombs on land and sea?

What should The Christian Majority of Citizens do now, keep being like Germany with their Advanced High Tech Weapons? Keep supporting this Killing in Iraq and Afghanistan? And call other Countries the Axis of Evil?

Will:
",,,the human race that kills a third of its children before they even get born, a form of human sacrifice to higher values than life itself...such as "choice".

Child Sacrifice is also in the Past. In the High Tech Noah/Atlantis Society, was Abortion also a problem of Child Sacrifice, in their Population Explosion, before the Planetary Flood?

Since 1900, the Earth's Population increased by 6 Billion. What would we do with 1/3 more Humans? Have more Abortions and Wars to get rid of them?

Is our High Tech and Population Explosion, also a Sign of the End Times of Life on Earth before the the Planetary Fire?

How much more Evil can Humans get than High Tech Toxic Atomic Waste Pollution on land and sea, Killing Each Other, and Killing their Eco System?

It is Time to Accept that the Body Birth Children Reproduced by Adam and Eve, began the Curse of Birth, Death, and Rebirth on our Home Planet, until the Final Judgment Day Fire.
\
With a High Tech Translation, the Truth about the Killer Human Species Life on Earth, is recorded in Religion, Myth, and Current History, with the Same Man-Made Gods of Fallen Humans, including the Man-Made Jesus God, made after the Flood.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

RE: RESPECT FOR RELIGION?

Cole,

Translated ... we are obligated to respect non scientific, irrelevant and Bronze Age BS as sacred and not view it as "morally relativistic", "historical", i.e. "naturally arising from the societal norms", as we are being covered with it (and pretend that it doesn't reek) while they are not required to do anything, except squeal like pigs under a gate and constantly play their victim cards.
_________________________
John Shelby Spong on Paul as a gay man and "repressed" homosexual...

An interesting point is made - if you don't have faith and worship properly, god will make you gay. To me this is phenomenal - even if we accept the premise god created humans and gays too, then their sexual urges should be of "god" (godly), but god goes and condemns them for their behavior.

Christianity makes a point that not only actions, but "thoughts" also constitute "crime" or "sin" - go figure this god.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=563jJbf9DKY&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

adam harrison

Susan, at least the man with the life sentence had chance; the aborted babies at the Tiller Clinic had NO APPEAL of their Death Sentence.

But you are right about the justice system; it reeks of injustice.

Well, at least its SECULAR!

Or, as Pope Paul II called it, a Culture of Death.

You know, you are almost on to something with your DEATH INDUSTRY remarks; at little more thought and you will see the connection to the abortion industry.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Here is one explanation of the dashing the little ones against the stones verse:http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/job-song-solomon/why-does-psalmist-speak-about-killing-children

But note that it is a Spong-like admission that not every word in the Bible is the word of God. The defense of the passage is that it was written by a human, from a human point of view that God did not necessarily approve of.

Dolores Lear

A mailing about Richard Dawkins new book. Very Interesting.

=down&startMid=0&pSize=25&hash=e8e0a94b9d505bfeef06dff205dfc8ab&.jsrand=2816123

I also accept Evolution, but not on Earth. I accept Humans on another Planet Evolved up to High Tech Male and Female Clone Human Caretakers, that did travel in Spaceships, and Colonize Earth.

Genesis is a good record of High Tech Colonization of a Planet, and the God/Us, our High Tech Ancestors, in our Image, Reproduced Females from the Male Rib. No Children.

When the Male and Female Clones began Reproducing Children by Body Birth, the Lower Nature of Human Reproduction, Sin began on Earth.

Inequality of the male and female Children, began the Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth Cycles that are still Present today.

High Tech Clone Humans do have Eternal Physical Life on Planets and in Spaceships.

Today, the Fetus is put back into the Female Womb, instead of a High Tech Science Womb to Finish Process of Correcting the Genetic and Physical Defects of the Fetus.

A few of the Defects are corrected today, in the lab and in the female womb, but all Humans are still reproduced by Body Birth, that can result in Death to the Child and Mother.

adam harrison

Hey Cole, glad to see you joining in with Iggy on telling us all to crawl under a rock.

And suggesting, with a little threat, that the "boogey man" will get us. The "boogey man"? (And who might that be, Cole? hmmmmmm? hahahahahaha!!! Somebody with a little camera recorder maybe?)

In the old days, when your kind had the power, it was off to the Gulags!

So, things are getting better! LOL!

But you say you like to quote Nietzsche, and you quote only what YOU THINK IS OF VALUE.

But you are a MORAL RELATIVIST, so what standard are you using to decide what is value?

And why should I care, since you want to see us silenced UNDER A ROCK?

Sorry, Sport...it ain't gonna happen.

You see, the methods you guys use...ridicule, misrepresentation, lying, etc...have been tried in many countries before. In fact, they were tried in the little Russians country, and, even with the POWER OF THE STATE behind them, they failed.

And self destructed.

What that means, Cole, is that you are going to fail.

But thanks for playing!

Red Biddy

That's quite an inditement of Christianity, Bill, quoted from the book by Father Patrick Desbois ! I think he "nailed" it (sorry no pun intended) when he said this was a "civilization shaped by centuries of Christian thinking".
Of course it was.
I think when you have a religion. which has at its center a writhing figure nailed to a cross, supposedly sacrificed for your sins, it's bound to desensitize believers to the suffering of their fellow human beings, especially if they have the idea, firmly fixed in their heads from childhood, that a certain group of human beings was solely responsible !
Thank you Cole for reminding us, with your list of 20th century genocides, that this "brutish behaviour" of which Bill wrote to-day continues. These incidents of human beings killing human beings are not always due to contemplation of the Cross, of course, but you don't find many Christian nations jumping in and trying to stop these acts of violence, do you ?
Jeff Sharlet in his book. "The Family" made comment about how the group of powerful Xians did absolutely nothing to stop some of these atrocities; not even speaking up about them even though they had "prayed" with some of the perps, like Sotharto, Barre and others.

Susan

Re: respect for religions: the invitees should sometimes include Atheists, of course. Iggy, is this why you seem hostile to the concept of respect for religions -- because you think President Obama will be like some people of the past and exclude Atheists and other non-religious people? I think that of every President we've ever had, he's most likely to be inclusive and to want to hear the points of view of everyone. If he seems to be forgetting, hopefully some well-placed Atheist groups will remind him.

adamh -- what do you mean by saying that at least our criminal justice system is secular? Now I'm thinking that I still don't "get" what sort of government you and Will are really for. You keep saying that if what Jesus said (Render to Caesar what's Caesar's and to God what's God's) isn't "enough" for me, then tough cookies!

I certainly think that what Jesus said was sufficient for the question HE was asked -- as to whether people should obey the law and pay their taxes or not. But when I ask what form of government you guys are for, and you keep giving Jesus' statement that essentially said, Obey the law and pay your taxes, while still honoring God -- it really doesn't seem sufficient --

Because my question is in reference to the way you guys keep making snide remarks about secular government out one side of your mouth, while out the other side you say you are not for theocracy 'cause Jesus said Render to Caesar ...

I suppose you'll just say tough cookies again. Oh, well, at least I've made my point that you're being extremely unclear and contradictory, which is in no way a reflection on Christ, Who I believe sufficiently answered the question HE was asked -- but you using THAT answer to answer a whole different question just seems to me kinda wonky.

Red Biddy

As Iggy and Cole are pushing their bible study meetings here and other freethought events, I'm going to start "pushing" the Community of Reason meetings. There's no secret as to where they are or when they'll be, as they are always listed on the Faith page of the Star so everyone has plenty of notice !
This next Sunday should be interesting. Subject is "Mainstream Coalition. A Voice of Reason in the Democracy/Theocracy.
Speaker is Janis McMillen,PhD. and she asks "What role does religion play in government ? Does it ? Should it ?
Day. Sunday, September 6th
Time 1.00 p.m.
Place Room 301, Haag Hall, UMKC. NW corner of 52nd Street and Rockhill Road.

Susan

http://www.theologyofthebody.net/

The same Catholic woman who told me about Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement, also suggested the above site as a good place for me to start learning about Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body.

And this is really powerful stuff. I've just read all the articles, and now have found the actual document itself online, so I can start studying it. It really rings true to me, as far as my knowledge of myself and my experience of MY OWN body.

But of course I just continue seeing all human beings as fallible, and no one human as having the final word. I feel I am learning alot about spiritual realities through pondering the theology of the body -- and it's exciting how the Pope says he's not trying to get the Church to be more SPIRITUAL, but rather more CORPOREAL, in order to more fully grasp the spiritual realities that are "embodied" within the male and female bodies and their interactions (this is just my paraphrase from memory).

But the missing component, to me, is that I've been learning that there are not just 2 distinct sexes -- some people are androgynous, and some are one sex outwardly and another one inside, and so on. Since God made ALL the different sexes, this means ALL are a part of the corporal expression of God.

So while this encyclical is showing me a lot as a heterosexual woman, it obviously doesn't represent everyone. I still think I can learn a lot from it, it's just not the final word. But I think it would be a lot to expect of one person, to think they should have the final word. It takes all of us in dialog to really get somewhere.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Hmm...my first post did not make it. I think saying something is taken "out of context" and then failing to explain how the context makes it okay is a cop-out. If you do that, then you can't talk about the Bible at all - positive or negative - without claiming it's out of context because you can't quote the whole Bible. Even a whole chapter is too long of a quote.

Will Graham

Red Biddy, I am afraid you have quote mined Father Patrick Desbois.

What he referred to was a "civilization shaped by centuries of Christian religious thinking AND BY THE ENLIGHTENMENT".

You left off "and by the enlightenment", unintentionally I am sure.

Because as I pointed out in my 4:25 AM post, what he glossed over, as you do, is that the Enlightenment encompassed a systematic ATTACK on Christian thinking and weakened Christianity considerably.

And, as I have already shown, Christianity in Germany was severely weakened in the decades leading up to the First World War and even more in the decade after, by the higher criticism, eugenics, and other attacks, which facilitated the rise of the Nazis.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_and_christianity.html

And to claim that genocides are not always due to the contemplation of the Cross is absurd; the were NEVER due to the "contemplation of the Cross...in fact, they DENIED THE CROSS. The Gulags, for example, killed many times more people than the Holocaust, including millions of believers, and were implemented by the practitioners of an atheistically based philosphy.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, the Nobel Prize Winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn proved this beyond doubt in his three volume series, The Gulag Archipelago.

And to say that Christians...which you marginalize a "X"ians...did nothing is pure slander; hundreds of thousands of Christians died opposing these regimes.

(Now, you may counter that you referred to Christian Nations, but atheists always tell me this is NOT a Christian nation...except when they want to blame Chrisitans. THEN it is. The old Atheist Double Standard Tactic no. 11)

In fact, there is a genocide going on in this country; a third of all unborn children are murdered, OVER HALF of them MINORITIES...David Duke, the racist, proclaims his support for abortion because he says that if not for that there would be over 20 million additional Black People in this country.

That is genoide.

And atheism always supports it.

Dolores Lear

Susan:
"But the missing component, to me, is that I've been learning that there are not just 2 distinct sexes -- some people are androgynous, and some are one sex outwardly and another one inside, and so on. Since God made ALL the different sexes, this means ALL are a part of the corporal expression of God."

God did not make all the different sexes, Humans do through Body Birth Reproduction. In Genesis, God/Us made Humans in their Image.

God/Us Reproduced the Female from the Male Rib, and made Equal Male and Female Clone Helpmeets. They were 2 distinct sexes, but one Genetic and Physical Soul Mates.

With High Tech Regeneration, Either male or female could be used to repair each other if accidents happened. And if one accidentally died, a new Clone of either sex could be Reproduced. They do have Eternal Physical Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships.

This is the Way for the High Tech Human Species, to have One Soul Helpmeet for Eternal Physical Life After Birth. Fallen Body Birth Humans keep looking for their Other Half or Soul Mate.

Not possible with Body Birth. So they have sex with other Heterosexual males and females, or GLBTs, all looking for the Fulfillment of their Soul Mate.

Instead of using High Tech for Better Humans, they made Atomic and Nuclear Bombs, by dividing the Atoms, instead of joining them they made Toxic Waste,

The Gospel Truth is Earth was Colonized by High Tech Clone Humans, that can be Proved with our High Tech Science today.

We are experimenting on Cloning Humans and Animals, and Colonizing Planets with our Spaceships.

What else should High Tech used for, except for blowing up a Home Planet?

Will Graham

As to Secular Government, we know that in opposition to the totalitarianism of the world empires of His day Christ taught not just the separation of Church and state (Matthew 22:21) but also the Limitation of State Power.

He explicity denied the political theory and practice of those governments. "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise domininion over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to be great among you, let him be your servant" (Matthew 20:25-26)

Christ declared that rulers should serve, not control, the people. Thus, he put a limitation on State Power.

Thats the kind of government I want; where the leaders serve the people, not the other way around.

Dolores Lear

My reference to Richard Dawkins book was defective. I think it was a good first chapter.

http://richarddawkins.net/godDelusion

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19775

High Tech Science today, with our Knowledge of Colonizing another Planet and reproducing a Human fetus in the lab, and cloning animals, should use Genesis 1 and 2 to prove this High Tech was on Earth 'in the beginning'.

The rest of the Bible is about the History of Humans spreading all over the Planet, by Body Birth, and a Planetary Noah Flood, the repopulation of the Earth up to our High Tech today.

All Religion and Myth need to be translated with High Tech for the Supernatural to Prove Planet Earth did have a Planetary Noah/Atlantis Flood.

Maybe we can also tie other Biblical events with all the other Myth writings, with a High Tech Science explanation.

If not, does it matter since we do almost have the High Tech of our High Tech Human Ancestors God/Us of Genesis 1, 2 ?

And go from there to correct all the Pollution, and Nuclear Bombs and Waste that are Killing our Eco System and Ozone Canopy? It may be impossible according Prophecy of the Last Days of Life on Earth.

But Atheist and Religious High Tech Knowledge are about the Human Species on Planets and in Spaceships today.
Is it a stretch to also accept it was on Earth 'in the beginning' and during the Noah/Atlantis Time Period?

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Will,
Interesting that you blame atheism for David Duke's support of Hitler's genocide when David Duke writes on his own website, "I am a Christian..."

Here is the post where he "speaks out as a Christian": http://www.davidduke.com/general/evangelicals-who-serve-the-anti-christ-2_6.html

And here is the post where he writes a "pre-commentary" to Pat Buchanan's defense of Hitler: http://www.davidduke.com/

Do I need to go get proof that Pat Buchanan is NOT an atheist? Or have we finally reached the end of your silliness?

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