Faith, eyeball to eyeball: 9-29-09

I have said here over and over that the purpose of interfaith dialogue is not conversion and not turning all religions into one mish-mash, common-ground religion.

No, the purpose is to know and to be known -- so that we reduce ignorance, which in turn reduces fear. As we all know, fear based on ignorance or misinformation can run amok into dangerous acts, including violence.

I was gratified the other evening when I heard this same message from Dr. Alp Aslandogan of Houston, president of the Institute of Intefaith Dialog. The I.I.D. has roots in the work and writing of the Turkish Islamic scholar Fethullah Gulen. Locally, the I.I.D. is represented by the Raindrop Turkish House in Lenexa, Kan.

"The best weapon in the hands of the fear-mongers and hate-mongers is fear," Aslandogan said.

Later, Aslandogan offered his own explanation of what interfaith dialogue is about:

"Interfaith dialogue has nothing to do with conversion or unification of religions or compromising any of the things that you cherish that you believe. No. It is the coming together of people who are committed to their respective faiths. It expects every partner, every participant at the interfaith dialogue table to be committed to their own faith but also to be open to learning about each other and also building a trust base and working together."

However, he said, "in the area of interfaith dialogue there is quite a lot of work to be done. Although the churches, the faith communities and the organizations who are interested in dialogue -- there are quite a few of them. But I think majority of the faithful in this country are either indifferent or distinterested or right out antagonistic toward interfaith dialogue. . . .Without the participation of at least a majority of the population, construction is always difficult. Destruction is easy. . . .Our challenge as people who believe in interfaith dialogue is to try to bring to the table people who might be suspicious or who might be disinterested or right out antagonistic."

I see this challenge as even broader. I also see it as overcoming turf battles among people who share a commitment to interfaith dialogue. Sometimes our faiths are so scattered and divided that we wind up with Christian versus Christian suspicion or Muslim versus Muslim contention. The result is that various groups don't get to know one another or learn to work with one another to advance the same cause. This is especially true when there are national groups with local representatives who sometimes get so busy with a national agenda that they don't connect to others on the local scene who share their values and goals.

That's why sometimes Presbyterians and Methodists just down the street from one another may not talk with each other about common goals. That's silly.

(By the way, one nice thing about going to events such as the dinner sponsored by the Institute for Interfaith Dialogue is that you get exposed to some lovely Turkish music. I've saved a minute of this background music here for you, but you'll have to ignore the chatter occurring among people at my table as they also listen to a stringed instrument called a saz and a drum. To hear the clip, click on this: Download Turkish-1)

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PROMOTING RELIGION IN INCREASINGLY SECULAR EUROPE

Pope Benedict XVI, speaking in the Czech Republic, told people that the fall of communism showed that people need God. Communism is a flawed economic system, but as it has been brought to fruition in various countries it also has adopted an antagonism toward religion, and often more than antagonism. Downright hatred. Which means communistic governments have not acknowledged the spiritual needs of people and built in religious freedom. It's a fatal mistake. And in that sense the pope is absolutely right.

Comments

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

Bill wrote>>>>>>>>>Pope Benedict XVI, speaking in the Czech Republic, told people that the fall of communism showed that people need God.

So, what does the rise of "socialistic capitalism" in Europe mean today when it comes to god and when a huge % of Europeans is not religious or fully atheistic? Or capitalism in Japan? - 60-70% of Japanese idenitify themselves as non religious? Or the morphing of "traditional capitalism" in America if you want to look at it as glass half empty?

Bill wrote>>>>>>>>>>Which means communistic governments have not acknowledged the spiritual needs of people and built in religious freedom. It's a fatal mistake.

Why do you need to actually "acknowledge" spiritual needs by a governemnt? Why not just have a freedom of speech and separation of state and "irrationality of speech" in whatever form it takes? "Irrationality" is always at odds with "society's good" overall. Irrationality would encompass "religion's dominance" over secularism and we don't even need to worry about "individual" spiritual needs as such?

Kind of like you call a union between willing partners a union and you call your union however you want - marriage, god's ordained marriage, union, contract, whatever.

The bird's eye view of the world... It makes it easier to digest and also more fair.

[Just Thinking]

Communism is not an economic system. If that's all it were, then it would not be dangerous. No, Communism as practiced is a dangerous pack of lies through which ruthless dictators selfishly manipulate the masses. Communism is an ideology, far more than an economic system.

The first and fatal mistake of modern Communist ideology is that it denies the right of free worship. God commands that we worship him, and that we have no other Gods before him, including Communist Emporers or Dictators. Modern Communism competes for the allegiance that we owe only to God. So it is fatally flawed and will inevitably perish.

The second fatal flaw of Communist ideology is that it denies the right of private ownership. If you're a farmer in China working the land, and the government wants your property, then they don't pay you for it--they tell you to leave. "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not covet" are commands from God which guarantee the right to private ownership. If you deny those rights, then you work against God. God instituted the right to worship Him through His Commandments, and He instituted the right to private ownership.

Communist leaders are more afraid of Truth than they are of anything else on the planet. The free exchange of information is a real threat to them. Why? Because they know people will not choose modern Communism if (a) they know about other ways of living and (b) they know what Communism leaders are doing to their *own* people. Totalitarian ideologies perish when people learn about how others live in this world.

The Pharaoh denied the Jews the right to go into the desert and worship God. Look what God did. Evil Communist Empires create slave systems which God will destroy as well.

[Just Thinking]

Free systems are destroyed when people say to themselves, "I live a in free country -- I can do what I want." Freedoms are perverted when people begin to mistake the freedom to do what is right for the freedom to pursue hedonism and selfish indulgence.

When "What can I get away with?" replaces "What should I do?", then a free nation is already in serious decline. When greedy people ask, "How much can I grab for myself?" instead of asking, "How should I help others?", then a free nation is already in decline. God's freedom is the freedom to do what is right.

The Apostle Paul tells us about the last days where people turn to hedonism, and use their freedom to pursue self-indulgent pleasures instead of pursuing Truth and what ought to be done. "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them."

[Will Graham]

Bill, your mention of the Pope's message in the Czech Republic about the Communist's adopting an antagonism toward religion that is more that antaganism but Downright Hatred is illustrated to us daily by the poster here who is a product of that system.

And I am amazed that after two years of this the hatred seems to be getting more and more blatant.

[Will Graham]

AS to interfaith work, I don't think that getting to know the other side always helps. (Except in the sense that it is better to be warned than not know.)

For example, a couple of years ago I didn't give much thought to atheism as anything other than another philosophical system. But after going to some of the meetings, and being confronted with blatant hostility and vicious remarks AFTER I was ASKED to say something about what I beleived I realized that it is much more, and much worse than that.

And, with all due respect, if you listen to their local radio show and pay any attention to what is said here and on their local blogs it is getting worse; they have been encouraged to "take the gloves off" by the New Atheists and other propagandists.

These people DO NOT want dicussion, Bill. They are not kidding when they tell us to SHUT UP and do you know what.

And, although it is unpleasant, I think you need to keep letting them spew, because it will help prevent their any acheiving and postion of political power over us.

[Will Graham]

Interesting New Atheist book on Evolution, Economics, and Evil.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=111232

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

I suppose interfaith dialogue is a good thing. I think it will help to morph the religions to be more fair. After all, they all can’t be correct. Young people around the world, I believe, see this. Otherwise, why does the number of nonreligious grow among the 18-29 yr old?

The Pope is only fishing in Europe. Not too many, percentage wise, will bite the bible baited hook. Europe has gotten over it a long time ago.

Just Thinking wrote>>>>>>>>>And if you attempt suicide, then we can lock you up in order to protect your life from *you*.

I talked with a man last night after bible study. He said the law we have in the USA is the bible. I told him if he abided by the bible and this broke secular law he would be punished by secular law. He replied, “No”.

What kind of thinking is this? What part of reality is he missing? We talked for 10-15 minutes and bottom line is that he wanted the power to make me follow biblical law. As I think you do JT> Continued

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

continued
Just thinking posted, “The jails and prisons are full of people who refused to submit to God-ordained authority, but they fell under it anyway. Authority is from God. People can abuse that authority, but the authority itself is from God.”

AND “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”

Authority is important to you. Several of you talk like attorneys. Would you like the authority to force me to go to church and or follow only the bible as a constitution? I really want to know.

JT said, “should likewise punish disobedient children; otherwise they don't learn,”

Please define punishment. Is this it?: Hitting a child?

Jt continued, “"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." Children won't die if you enforce reasonable obedience, but they might if you don't!”

He who loves his children will talk and reason with them. I know that is a strange concept for those who follow such a murderous, conniving biblical god, but give it some thought.

I find it weird how some here want to take rights from people like, end of life issues, yet hitting children is okay. Now, I know for a fact that is against the law. Any takers on that?

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Will Graham]

Cole Morgan, going to a study with the purpose of making fun of people is not "bible study".

Thats as stupid as you always signing off "Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole".

IGGY, in your opening post you pretend not to see Bill's point that the Communists HATED RELGION, as you do and as you exhibit daily.

We know you are a product of that system, but what you don't seem to understand is that the tactics of the government you were raised under FAILED and destroyed your homeland...sending you scurrying to the safety of Overland Park, Kansas as fast as you could! Hahahaha!!!

Your pretense that your BIRD BRAINS view of the world is more FAIR is HILARIOUS!

You can pretend to ingnore this like the coward you are and not respond...we know how you were pooping your pants when you were talking to the Master Debater and hung up (just like Cole Morgan did after calling him a name) but haven't you learned by now that you CAN'T shut us up? LOL!

[Will Graham]

By the way, if you want to have some guts and debate him, he will be available at 816-353-1102 this morning.

[Dolores Lear]

Yesterday.
Me:
"So if God appointed the Authorities, as we are taught in Religion, then God OKed Jesus' death."

And if Jesus is God, then God is Dead as German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, and the movement in the 1960s proclaimed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead

Do Religious Humans accept God OKs all Death by Humans in War, Inequality, Starvation, Greed, and all Religious and Governmental Authorities Killing, or only for the Country they belong to?

Is that why Christians or any Religious Humans in more than One Country, Kill Each Other, even if they have the same Religion? Government is a Higher Influence than God?.

There is No Place for Conscientious Objectors to Live in Peace for GOD or God, so have to go along with their Government Killing, or go to Jail.

Religious Objection is not a valid reason not to go to War, and Kill our Brothers/Sisters of Life.

Today, Killer Religious Humans, 'under God appointed Governmental Authorities', made High Tech Nuclear Bombs and Nuclear Waste in their High Tech Labs.

Can Religion Save the Planet?

http://us.mc326.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.gx=0&.tm=1254233862&.rand=52s1s7l8qtj40#_pg=showMessage&sMid=0&&filterBy=&.rand=129100068&midIndex=0&mid=1_5466_AOrPjkQAAFdkSsFyfA7a%2BHOvGOA&f=1&m=1_5466_AOrPjkQAAFdkSsFyfA7a%2BHOvGOA,1_159_AOnPjkQAAVErSrqlDgGrBUAgbzU,1_666_AOvPjkQAAGGFSrO2ZgmXB0Jn2jg,1_1203_AObPjkQAADqRSrJYqQpikX%2BrLps,1_1811_AOvPjkQAAFpfSqvF8QMZ9EqA6jQ,&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&pSize=25&hash=66d2e5126bd78018c629d64355fc4849&.jsrand=5437380

Is the End Times of Life on Earth, a Human Made Judgment Day Fire? Or our Home Planet destroyed, by the Religious God Appointed Authorities?

[Dolores Lear]

Bill: Interfaith Dialog.
"..the purpose is to know and to be known -- so that we reduce ignorance, which in turn reduces fear."

Humans cannot reduce ignorance and fear, until Humans Translate All Supernatural Scriptures and Myth, with High Tech Science, that were Carefully handed down by Natural Born Humans.

Generation after Generation of Body Birth, Death, and Rebirth, the Fear of God viewpoints resulted in the many Religions. How many Protestant Religions have been made, from the Catholic Religion, since the 1600s and are still dividing?

The Evolution Theory as the Way Life began on Earth, is because the Noah/Atlantis Yearlong Planetary Flood is not accepted, as when the Fossil and Megalithic record was set down on Earth's new Strata.

Humans have Returned to the High Tech Science of Humans flying up in the air, and out into Space, 'supernaturally'. Humans do Know how to Colonize Life on a Planet. Humans do Reproduce Human Fetus' and Clone Animals in the Lab. All considered God's Work.

Our Scriptures and Myths, with these High Tech Events, are still being Translated, like Humans without High Tech Science, as Supernatural.

Are Humans ready to Wake Up and see, what Worship in Temples made by Human Hands have done to GODs Temple Planet Earth. and the Life on it?

High Tech Humans, with their Fear, made the Nuclear Bombs and Waste, and are faced with the Prophesied Nuclear 'Arm'ageddon, and a Planetary Fire Destruction of Life on Earth, and the Collapse of our Ozone Canopy.

After the Judgment Day Planetary Fire, Earth will be a Planet without an Atmosphere, and will resemble our Moon and Mars.

[adam harrison]

Dolores, its amusing to see you quoting the Nietzsche, the philosopher who said, "Elimination of the weak and defective, the first principle of our philosphy. And we should help them to do it!"

(Nietzche, The AntiChrist, sec. 2)

Hitler loved him!

But if God is dead, Dolores, then who exactly are you blaming when you go on and on about things going wrong?

You see, this is your hypocrisy; you praise High Tech Science, and yet excuse all the atrocities it is used to commit.

And yet you continue to go on and on about a God you claim not to believe in.

What do you think is going to happen if God does not exist, Dolores? That some High Tech Aliens, like your fellow anti Christian Iggy is always talking about, are going to wish you away to eternal life in a space ship?

Ask Iggy and Cole if they think that is what will happen, but I can tell you now that what they will tell you is that when the time comes you will simply cease to exist and that will be it.

If you really were a Christian once Dolores, you should return to the Truth.

[Just Thinking]

You can always spot when someone has evil on their mind. Someone with the intent to do good asks, "What is the right thing to do?" Someone with evil on their mind asks, "How far south can I go without crossing a line?"

Understanding that difference is critical. The first question, "What is the right thing to do?" presupposes that you want to do what is right. When you replace that question with "How far south can you go without crossing a line?", then you are no longer asking in order to obey God. Now you are asking to justify wrong with loopholes.

"Please define punishment. Is this it?: Hitting a child?" That's a question of Cole's. Let's replace that question with "What is the right thing to do?" The right thing in raising children is to make sure that they respect authority, and that they learn to obey parents, country, and God. If children don't learn to obey parents, country and God, but instead are set on the path of "What can I get away with?", then they're heading down a path where they want to find ways to escape the country's laws and God's laws. That sets a child on a path to prison and/or Hell. "What is the right way to raise a child?" ANS: To be respectful of parents, Country, God and others. That is the *right* way.

The seeds of lawlessness start with the question, "How far south can I go without crossing a line?" There is no desire to do what is right, but rather to get away with something. And the more people converted to that way of thinking, the more people that will join the merry band of the hell-bent rebels. The process is clear.

[Dolores Lear]

adamh:
"But if God is dead, Dolores, then who exactly are you blaming when you go on and on about things going wrong?"

What is Truth? I blame Body Birth Humans, that do not Know better. I also want to show that when Humans say Jesus is God, then God died when Jesus did if Jesus is God. That is the impression I get from the 'God is Dead' message.

I say God/Us in Genesis, our High Tech Clone Ancestors and Jesus a Male Celibate, are Humans, who are Alive in Spaceships, and on a Home Planet. They are not GOD, and should not be worshiped in Temples Made By Human Hands.

The only Word 'GOD' I can accept, is, the Source that made the Elements and the Universes, not a Human. If GOD is Dead there would be no Universe or Life on Earth.

Humans were to be the Caretakers of the Planet, not the Owners and Killers of GODs Planet.

JT:
"The second fatal flaw of Communist ideology is that it denies the right of private ownership"

God/Us, High Tech Humans in Genesis, did not give Ownership to the Humans they Reproduced, but to be the Caretaker Species of their Home Planet.

Genesis 1:26. KJV. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish..fowl.. cattle, and over all the earth.."

Dominion does not mean Capitalism. Land should Not Be Owned by Humans, but to be the Caretaker Species in Commonism like Jesus taught, of All Life on Earth.

Humans should not buy and sell GODs Resources to each other, but Share All Things Equally. And not Reproduce more Humans, than the Society can feed, house and clothe.

What does it Gain a Human, to own the whole Planet and Die? Why not Share Equally with All Life, and Have High Tech Equal Peace and Good Will?

High Tech Science can give Human Clones, Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships, like God/Us in Genesis.

[Susan]

Bill, you are absolutely right than an essential component of interfaith dialog is becoming more rooted in our own faith traditions. I'm starting to see this now. I've been spending a lot of time lately learning about Roman Catholicism, and it's been exciting because it's opened my eyes to stuff I was unaware of coming from my Protestant (Baptist, Assembly of God) background.

For intstance, I have a much better understanding of the reasoning behind the Catholic devotion to Mary. I don't know why it never occurred to me before that when God became human through Mary, Mary's DNA became part of God's DNA. So when Catholics say "To Christ, through Mary" -- it's really an acknowledgement that her DNA makes up the human component of Jesus, and therefore the human component of the triune God. She's an intricate part of our connection to God.

I've been feeling more and more of a need to get involved with a local Body/Church, and am enjoying the fellowship of the dinners at the Catholic Worker house in our neighborhood. I'm also looking into what actual local church would be the best place to foster our growth in the Lord, as well as being the best place for us to serve Him.

I don't want to let go of what I'm learning through the Catholic teachings -- yet I can't reconcile myself to some of the teachings, so couldn't in honesty become a Roman Catholic.

And I am now feeling a strong affinity to the Episcopal Church. There are 2 congregations pretty near us downtown, so we'll see what works out. From what I've learned thus far, Episcopalians don't "all" pray to Mary -- but some do. So there's an openness to those of us who feel more drawn into Maryan devotion (see I'm learning new phrases, LOL).

[Susan]

About communism, I think Iggy has made an interesting point that the developed nations in the free (democratic) world are integrating socialism into their/our political systems. It seems to me that the proper order is to foster freedom and opportunity for all, as well as true freedom of religion,philosophy,discussion, and acquisition of knowledge, so we can grow in wisdom and develop our empathy for others.

When people are free and happy and able to care for their own families, that is when they have room in their hearts to look with compassion on those who are suffering and living without. The freedom of religion, philosophy, discussion, and knowledge acquisition is essential too, though -- because while our own comfort gives us "room" to care for others, without developing our empathy (through growth in knowledge and understanding) we don't have MOTIVE to care for others, and we'll fill that space with selfishness instead.

Reversing the order by starting out with a coercive Communistic (capital C) government with no freedom of religion/philosophy/discussion/knowledge acquisition, doesn't allow much room for development of empathy (in my opinion -- though never having lived under this system I don't really know). Basic needs seem to get met, sort of, though I've heard of Chinese people living in makeshift hovels because the government wanted the land their homes were on for redevelopment, so they were just turned out and not even given a new place to live.

From yesterday, Red Biddy, I can see that from an Atheist standpoint, there is similarity between the Crucifixion and suicide bombings, in that an Atheist sees both deaths as pointless. Of course from a Christian standpoint, I believe the Crucifixion of Jesus accomplished the salvation of the whole world and gave us eternal life -- whereas suicide bombings just cause death.

[adam harrison]

Iggys attempt to equate Communism with Socialism is of course a false analogy, because Communism as a philosophy is based on Dialectical Materialism, which leads, as Bill pointed out, to antagonism and outright hatred of religion.

Socialism mandates no such scenario. Iggy and Susan know this, and the attempt to equate the too is duplicitous.

In fact, the attempt by the Communists to eliminate religion and its failure demonstrate that human beings to in fact have a spiritual component that can not be ignored; to do so leads to self destruction, as happened to the government that Iggy was raised under.

The mere fact that he ran away from that situation shows that his claims are hollow, and, moreover, he knows it...because he has gotten more and more angry over the past months as it has not be ceased to be pointed out to him.

Further, equating the Crucifixion with suicide bombing, and claiming to be able to see the atheist viewpoint in this regard, is further evidence of that Willful Deception...the Crucifixion did not take others with it, while the suicide bombers take as many as they can.

There is no "atheist standpoint" on this...there are only lies, misrepresentations, and Straw Men. And their collaborators know this but like to KTA

[adam harrison]

Revised Statutes of Missouri dealing with those who may harm themselves or threaten to harm themselves:

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C600-699/6320000330.HTM

[Just Thinking]

I believe it was Mark Twain who used to say that he would never be a member of any club that would have him as a member.

There is irony in someone who cannot find juuuusssstt the right Church because they feel that Churches are too judgmental!!! Who is it that's being too judgmental? Really.

If someone who is so judgmental about Churches finally does find the perfect Church that is incredibly anti-judgmental, then the Church is not going to want that person in the congregation because of how judgmental they were about Churches!!! Strain your brain to see the illogic and contradiction. :)

That's the problem with people being against a negative. It's often self-referencing and logically inconsistent. It's what you're *for* that really counts. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. An athiest does not automatically find comraderie in another atheist. Just because the two have the same enemy does not mean anything. But those who are *for* God have something in common. Those who are seeking good and trying to do the right thing do have automatic comraderie. There is a brotherhood of believers, but not a brother of disbelievers.

I can see how someone who is very critical of Churches can fall in with an atheist crowd. They have a common enemy. But they don't have much else in common.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Well, JT you answered my question, yet you didn’t. I didn’t expect a straight answer. You always go in circles. Do you ever get dizzy? A doggy chasing his tale/tail.

The way I understand you is that your belief in nonbelievers is we are aiming for evil deeds. You are so legalistic I believe it clouds your thoughts. If we question religion, then we are evil. Most religions, like the Abrahamic faiths, grew out of change from some other religion so I suppose that makes these evil, too.

I grew up with “Spare the rod - spoil the child” BS. It doesn’t work. There are much better ways. I think it is sad you endorse such actions. I hope they don’t teach this in your church. This is something I will start bringing up in our bible studies.

It was interesting to see the look on the preacher’s face when we showed for sunrise bible study this morning. In this church we are seeing the herd mentality. It’s like they get together to chant to strengthen their convictions. If enough people get together and think hard enough it must be so. There is no difference between wishing and praying.

They believe because they believe. Like you, JT. You believe in belief.

These bible studies are stimulating. We nonbelievers all have are reasons for attending. That’s the thing with freethinkers, we think independently.

I have had some great conversations. I don’t go to churches for one reason, but several. Mostly I find it psychologically rewarding, and like my friend reminds me, “You are spreading little seeds” I believe this. We are not changing minds, a person has to do that on their own, but we are leaving them thinking, perhaps a little more than before we arrived. I can see it in some…

Another bible study tonight.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[adam harrison]

Cole, you and your "undisclosed location" bible studies! LOL!

Just Thinking is right. You can always tell when someone has evil on their mind. Otherwise, why not be up front about the bible studies rather than hiding what you are doing...like you are doing something dirty?

Could it be, because you are not there to "study" but to disrupt and derail?

Yes, I think it could!

[Just Thinking]

Cole, what is sad is how you speak in platitudes.

"I grew up with “Spare the rod - spoil the child” BS. It doesn’t work. There are much better ways."

Sometimes there may be better ways, but sometimes not. It depends on the child. It depends on the circumstances. It depends. But to decide upfront that you will *never* do something works against the goal of making sure that children learn the proper respect for authority, for God, for Government and for others.

Your thinking is all hypothetical. It's not goal-oriented toward the goal of teaching children respect for Government so that they don't wind up prison, and respect for God so that they don't end up in Hell. I have no idea what your value system is. You seem to have none.

By your way of thinking, we should close the prisons and never put people in prison either, right? That would the natural extension of your flawed thinking. When you start off with constraints instead of goals as you do, then your thinking will always end up in platitudes.

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

Announcing 'Agnostic Salvation Hour' - local Kansas City FreeThinkers podcast and online steaming.

The show can be heard at: http://agnosticsalvation.podomatic.com/ or on iTunes under the name 'Agnostic Salvation Hour'. It can also be heard on http://www.freethoughtradio.com.

New episodes are slowly being uploaded. Here are some examples.

Marshall, Cole and Howard shoot the poop with Darrell Ray author of 'The God Virus' and founder of Recovering From Religion.

Released in Nov 08 this episode starts off as a political commentary about the job awaiting the newly elected President Obama. Feel free to skip over the first 40 minutes if you'd prefer. Towards the end it gets into some pretty harsh bashing of Islam. If my body is ever found in a ditch somewhere,this episode is probably the reason why.

More biblical morality (or lack thereof). Discussion about Gary Habermas' proofs for the resurrection.