Reconciling science, religion: 9-26/27-09

Sometimes I'm really slow to find good articles in print. An example is the piece I want to share with you this weekend. It's from the November 2008 issue of Scientific American, one of the millions of magazines I don't take but that I enjoy reading now and then.

A friend from church handed me this piece recently, and it made enough good science-religion points that I wanted you to be able to read it.

It's called "The Christian Man's Evolution," and is about Francisco J. Ayala, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California-Irvine. He was ordained a Catholic priest in 1960, but then elected to go into science full time.

What I especially like about the piece is its explanation of Ayala's view "that scientists who attack religion and ridicule the faithful -- most notably, Richard Dawkins of the University of Oxford -- are making a mistake." Ayala, the piece says, believes that "is destructive and gives fodder to the preachers who insist followers must choose either Darwin or God."

Ayala would like people of faith to reconcile their faith with science.

I've said before here that one of the more articulate books about this subject is God After Darwin: A Theology of Evolution, by John F. Haught. In it, Haught describes a biblical vision of God and how God works that is not in conflict with evolutionary theory.

There's really no need for contentious controversy between science and religion if scientists and people of faith will both acknowledge that there are some things each area cannot answer. The problem comes when religionists make claims about the physical world that are in conflict with what science can prove and when scientists dismiss religion as foolish superstition.

* * *

DEATH OF A GIFTED MAN

About a year and a half ago in this blog entry, I wrote about a wonderful clergyman/author who was facing his own death from cancer. He's a man I had gotten to know a bit in recent years and one I admired a great deal. The Rev. Forrest Church died Thursday. A sad, sad day, and yet I'm sure he would have us spend our grieving time celebrating his remarkable life. Before I knew Forrest, I had met his late father a time or two, Sen. Frank Church of Idaho, who gained much fame in the 1970s for investigating abuses by the CIA. The Church family has contributed a lot to this country. To read more about Forrest Church on his congregation's Web site, click here.

Comments

[Will Graham]

The problem with reconciling religion with science is that all scientific theories are PROVISIONAL and subject to change; i.e. the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know at all.

For example, scientists long held that the universe was eternal, but toward the beginning of the last century the view developed that the universe thad a beginning...i.e., the "Big Bang"...and now there are suggestions it is swinging the other way.

So the rush to "reconcile" a particular religious view with a particular scientific theory is pointless; even if you ignore the many cases of scientific mistake and fraud.

The real problem is for ATHEISM...which lacks a key component of the Scientific Method, Falsifiability.

If you accept the view that all existence can be explained by chance interacting with "scientific law"...whatever they are in a given era...as KC"FREE"THINKER asserts, then there is NOTHING that could EVER, even in principle, falsify atheism.

Hencie, atheism is not scientific in any sense.

Diaagree? Give me an example of something that could, in theory at least, falsify your atheism.

I will show you wrong, and hence not being scientific or rational.

[Will Graham]

In his last post yesterday, KC"FREE"THINKER cries, "Its my life and I demand to end it when I want."

So?

Who is stopping you?

But that is his business. The real problem with this guy is that he goes around demanding that OTHERS "crawl under a rock and DIE".

That of course he has no right to do.

[Dolores Lear]

Bill:
"There's really no need for contentious controversy between science and religion if scientists and people of faith will both acknowledge that there are some things each area cannot answer."

Today, Humans Know how to Colonize a Planet, Reproduce a Human 'fetus', Clone Animals, and Regenerate the Body Supernaturally, with High Tech Science. Humans, 100 years ago, could not do this.

Genesis 1:26,27. KJV. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the.. Fish, Fowl Cattle, and over all the Earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

God/Us were High Tech Science Humans. Earth was Colonized. Evolution did not happen on Earth. But Life as we Know it, could have Evolved on the Planet God/Us came from.

Whenever LIFE in the Universe began, from Seen and UnSeen Elements, how can Humans made from these Elements Know how LIFE began?

Who or What made the Elements that make Universes? The Big Bang or GOD? No Human, made from Elements can Know this, as yet, if ever.

After Humans 'Sinned', and began reproducing Children by Body Birth, they lost their High Tech, and it was handed down, and translated, in writings of Scripture and Myth as 'Supernatural'.

As Bill stated: "There's really no need for contentious controversy between science and religion if scientists and people of faith will both acknowledge that there are some things each area cannot answer."

But with a High Tech Science Explanation, most of the Supernatural Writings about LIFE on Earth can be answered, by High Tech Science.

Where Life 'in our image' came from, that could Colonize a Planet, is still a Mystery to be Solved Together, with the High Tech Knowledge of Science, Religion, and Myth.

[adam harrison]

I find that last post by the Freethinker disturbing. He has been telling people to die, and now HE is talking about dying/

Whats going on? Is he ill? Does he need some help/

I think I am going to quit replying to him, this is getting out of hand.

Bill, if you know this guy, maybe you can encourage him to get some help. Maybe something is really wrong.

[Dolores Lear]

Thursday, Nigthline started a new program "10 Commandments", that Bill posted about. The first: 6th Commandment, Adultery.

http://abcnews.go.com/nightline/faceoff

It was a very good discussion. When they mentioned Jesus, they did not bring up Celibacy, which Jesus taught about as the Kingdom of God in Heaven, where there is no marriage/sex, or giving in marriage for reproduction.

Once Humans loose their Virginity, and get a taste of the Reproduction sex act, it leads to Unsatisfied Pleasure sex, and all the rest of the problems in marriage. With results in Misbred Children, whether Heterosexual, Pedophiles and GLBTs.

God/Us did not instituted the marriage ceremony. God/Us our High Tech Ancestors, made the Female from the Male Rib, and Humans Know close relationship should not have sex with Children, or for Pleasure that causes reproduction.

High Tech Clones should not marry, have sex, or children. Clones are joined as One, with the same Genetics and Physical Characteristics. Body Birth Misbred Defective Human Genetics, are inherited from Father and Mother.

Human Sex for pleasure, the past 100 years, did result in our Population Explosion, from 1 billion to 7 billion today.

Body Birth Humans really are Born to Cheat, in more Ways than Sex or Marriage. The Original Sin of Adam and Eve was Reproducing Children.

All the 'lesser' sins resulted, from this Unforgivable Sin of High Tech Purebred Birth Humans, who began reproducing Misbred Body Birth Children.

So Yes, Humans are born to Cheat. And to 'Sin' against GOD/Life, God/Us Our Ancestors, Each Other, and Our Home Planet.

Eternal Human Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and In Spaceships, is Possible on High Tech Planets, with Equal High Tech Male and Female Clone Reproduction.

[STL]

Scientists agree upon the fundamental laws which govern the universe. Has there ever been a law where there is no law giver? Why then do so many scientists deny any supernatural intervention could take place yet they agree there are laws governing matter, space and time? Aren't they limiting exploration of the truth by making a priori assumptions which exclude some very important possibilities? Isn't this approach fundamentally unscientific?

Much current scientific investigation is undermining prior assumptions and confusing past prognostications about what is and what should be expected. Read about it daily at:

http://www.creationsafaris.com/crevnews.htm

[Dolores Lear]

Will:
"..scientists long held that the universe was eternal, but toward the beginning of the last century the view developed that the universe had a beginning...i.e., the "Big Bang"...and now there are suggestions it is swinging the other way."

Science the last 100 years, can Prove that there is more than One Universe today, And Prove Universes do Collapse into a Black Hole. And they are starting to see new Universes being born again.

This is the Key to High Tech Eternal Physical Life After Birth, for High Tech Purebred Clone Humans. High Tech Humans Know when to leave their Planet, Solar System, Galaxy or Universe, and Travel to a New Universe.

Body Birth Humans carry this Universe Dying Black Hole Information in Scripture, as the Everburning Hell.

The High Tech Information I was 'given' to understand, is that Human Life as we Know it is Eternal on Planets and in Spaceships.

As long as Humans keep to the High Tech Rules of High Tech Celibate Male and Female Clone Reproduction, and Humans as the Peace Caretakers Species of Life, on a Home Planet, they can have Eternal Physical Clone Life After Birth.

But what happened to make High Tech Clone Humans start Reproducing by Body Birth. I think it would be something very traumatic to them, to cause the downfall of Eternal Life After Birth on our Earth. More than the Snake/Lucifer/Satan/Lust.

High Tech Humans today, can Translate the High Tech of Genesis, Why The Equal Clones, decided to Reproduce by Body Birth Generation, Birth, Death, and Rebirth, is not revealed so far, or translated today.

Will:
"So the rush to "reconcile" a particular religious view with a particular scientific theory is pointless; even if you ignore the many cases of scientific mistake and fraud."

[PreacherDJ]

Something interesting I saw today:

"Atheism: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

The article I posted yesterday about 'assisted' suicide and end of life issues got me thinking about how I wanted to have my life ended when my health deteriorates to the point of no return and/or I have pain, discomfort and just basically say "time to go".

I've decided to actually "stream live" my last hours of life on Internet and the whole process of my death. It's pretty easy technically and surely in 30-40 years technology will be even easier. You can stream now from your cell phone if you want. At any time I have 3 laptops running on my desk (2 with video cams recording video and audio all the time). I always take one laptop with me in the car or wherever I go. It has wireless broadband and it continues to video record and also can video stream online easily.

When the time for me to die comes, depending, I can just expire on my own or chose assisted suicide. My brain/body will be cryonically suspended and I'd like this whole procedure to be streamed live online. Most likely by then there will be laws concerning assisted suicide/end of life on the books in most states, if not, then I'll move to the state that is the most friendly. It's also possible to be on a ship somewhere in neutral international sea waters where laws don't aplly to take care of it. Through an Anatomical Gift letter to the cryonics facility - http://www.alcor.org everything is pretty easily arranged. (Continued)

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

(Continue) This "video vouyer" and "hip" approach to "death" will be kind of interesting in my opinion to many people. In 20-40 years religion will lose its grip on society dramatically, more and more people will be "apathetic" towards religion, and there will always be a segment of the population "on the fence". These are the ones that have to be reached through "rational" exploration of the world and in "death" case of "natural" process of death.

I am actually looking forward to the last seconds of my life and see what it feels like to be dying and describe it to people all over the world in my last words. I'd like my brain to be hooked up to fMRI machine at that time and maybe someone comment about the processes taking place in my body and brain at that time - do I expreience pain, what medications are being administerd and why, what do they do to my organs, brain and feelings. I think this would be an interesting approach of "de-demonizing" death and further promoting "rational" and "scientific" approach to life and death. A video blog can be maintained with regular "near death" video contributions.

Video streaming can be done on "many" sites simultaneously - last I counted there are hundreds of sites that allow free streaming. One can set up independent web sites that cannot be shut down by anyone at short notice. It's easy to have 100-1,000 sites set up all over the world with a link to a video streaming account at each service seperately. These sites are kept anonymous and only revealed at the video streaming time by e-mail to those interested one at a time. No matter what authorities will try to do to shut them down out of hundreds of sites a huge number of them still will be running. An e-mail database of people interested to see the cast can be collected and e-mails sent out to them when the "assisted suicide" show begins.

If one site is shut down remotely and you are disconnected, a link to another site automatically pops up in your e-mail in seconds and then you can continue to watch the whole process unobstructed. Videos of actual death/assisted suicide and further cryonics suspension can be later uploaded all over the world.

Crazy theists will surely get their feathers ruffled, will be just another nail in the coffin for them.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Yesterday I posted:
Holocaust denial? I don’t even understand how anyone can think that.

What I meant by that is this: The holocaust happened. Why would anybody say it didn’t…

I do not hate Jews. Why would I hate anyone. Delusion seems to run rampant here.

Here is something funny:
http://www.jesusbelievesinevolution.com/

Robin Ince on Creationism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdocQHsPCNM

Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 22)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNGK3y5Ypg

Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY&feature=related

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Just Thinking]

Truth is what Scientists must seek. Truth is what everyone should seek. But you're not going to seek Truth unless you have faith that there is Truth. Distilling Truth leads us to its essence found in ideals. It is in those ideals where people believe they've found truth. People fight for ideals. Ideals become real.

Those who are not receptive to the Truth are not receptive to the Spirit of God, also known as the Spirit of Truth. The essence of the law, the spirit of the law are things that we often hear discussed. What is the spirit of the law in a particular case? Finding the spirit or essence of the Truth leads us toward ideals. We can never really find or achieve ideals because ideals don't exist in this life, but we search. Those who have tried to codify ideals into laws of justice know that eventually codified systems dictate verdicts and process which directly contradict our original ideals. Our own legal system constantly violates ideals.

Ideals don't exist in this world and yet we are driven to find ideals. So why are we driven to find that which does not exist in this world, but which we feel so strongly must exist? We are fish looking for air, that have only known water. There is nothing ideal in this world. So why do people strive to find ideals? C.S. Lewis believed that it was because we retain a memory of the ideal in which humans once existed before the fall from grace which destroyed all perfection and which now separates us from the ideal. He reasoned that the ideal exists, but just not here. We are drawn to the ideal, like a moth to the light, but we are cut off from the ideal. Why?

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

PreacherDj, “Something interesting I saw today:
"Atheism: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."

Where did your god come from?

Let me quess. From your head.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[STL]

What do you believe in?
Supernatural Chance or a Supernatural Creator?

http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/index.html

Most people have been led to believe that the fossil record is the most compelling evidence for universal common descent, i.e. Darwinism.

While fossils provide excellent evidence for the appearance of endless variations within “kinds” of organisms (speciation), paleontologists line up similar looking fossils that create an illusion that variation produces unlimited change.

However, it is now clear that creating lineages and family trees (morphology) based on similar features (homology) has been proven to contradict empirical evidence:

http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/fossil_evidence.html

[STL]

What do you believe in?

Supernatural Chance or a Supernatural Creator?

“my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.” Hosea 4:6

http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/index.html

Most people have been led to believe that the fossil record is the most compelling evidence for universal common descent, i.e. Darwinism.

While fossils provide excellent evidence for the appearance of endless variations within “kinds” of organisms (speciation), paleontologists line up similar looking fossils that create an illusion that variation produces unlimited change.

However, it is now clear that creating lineages and family trees (morphology) based on similar features (homology) has been proven to contradict empirical evidence:

http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/fossil_evidence.html

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

The Human Spark - Running and Big Brains?

Alan Alda talks to scientist Dan Lieberman about why the human ability to run could be an important prerequisite for the evolution of our bigger brains -- and the emergence of our human spark. "The Human Spark," Alan Alda visits dozens of scientists on three continents -- and even undergoes an examination of his own brain -- to find the answer to one question: What makes us human? Coming to PBS in January 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICNaSah5bAs

And on the same subject...

Absolutely Fricking Amazing "Persistence" Hunt! This is a "Persistence Hunt" of a Male Kudu, by tribesman of the San on the Kalahari Desert of Africa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo

[PreacherDJ]

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org:

My God didn't come from anywhere. He has always been. Everything else has a beginning.

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

India's caste system 'is thousands of years old', DNA shows - by Telegraph.co.uk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/6224560/Indias-caste-system-is-thousands-of-years-old-DNA-shows.html

Researchers analysed the DNA of 132 individuals with wide-ranging backgrounds from 25 diverse groups around India.

They found evidence of strong inbreeding leading to genetic groups that had been isolated from each other for thousands of years.

Most people had a mixture of genes from two ancient populations representing traditionally upper-caste individuals and everyone else.

The first was genetically close to people from the Middle East, Central Asia and Europe, while the second had an 'Ancestral South Indian' lineage confined to the subcontinent.
_________
Feathered dinosaur fossils find has Chinese scientists all aflutter
by Steven Morris - guardian.co.uk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/sep/24/dinosaur-fossil-discovery-china

The discovery of five remarkable new fossils has confirmed that birds evolved from dinosaurs, Chinese scientists said last night.

Because the fossils, unearthed in north-eastern China, are older than previous discoveries of similar creatures, the find adds weight to the theory that birds descended from predatory dinosaurs.

The fossils all have feathers or feather-like structures. The clearest and most striking of the specimens can be seen to have four wings, extensive plumage and profusely feathered feet.

[Red Biddy]

In order for religion to be compatible with science it is going to have to EVOLVE also.

Will G thinks that "scientific theories are PROVISIONAL and subject to change" a position which could equally apply to religious "theories" of which there are many different kinds.

Much of religious thought has come a long way from its origins but has still got a long way to go.

We in the West scoff at the motivation of Moslem suicide bombers who as martyrs to their faith, believe they are going straight to Paradise, while many of us still believe that God sent himself (in the form of a human Son) to commit suicide for the salvation of all mankind !

[Red Biddy]

I think Francisco Ayala is probably right that "scientists who attack religion and ridicule the faithful - most notably Richard Dawkins - are making a mistake." (Likewise "eating Christian brains" comments on this blog !) Such attacks are not very productive and certainly don't produce many converts to freethought, and I'm sure as Ayala said, "gives fodder to preachers who insist followers choose between Darwin and God."

But there are other avenues (and writers) of scientific/religious thought to explore who don't use ridicule to make the point that God is no longer .. "an old white guy sitting on a cloud counting sparrows...." (as Carl Sagan put it in one his 1985 Gifford lectures )

Trouble is, there's a culture war going on between people who want to explore the universe in which we find ourselves and those who cling to the old ideas as expressed in the Bible which they believe NOT subject to change and are NOT PROVISIONAL and those like DJ Preacher who posted "He (God) has always been."

Case closed DJ ?....I don't think so....you haven't always BEEN, so how do you think you know "God" has ?

[Dolores Lear]

Preacher D.J.
"My God didn't come from anywhere. He has always been. Everything else has a beginning."

Preacher D.J., Do you accept this as Truth in Genesis 1:26a,27? KJV. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: - So God created man in him own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Do you accept God is a Spirit? Or a Spirit 'Being'? God/Us in Human Form, had to be After, GOD made the Elements, of Visible and Invisible Life, and 'Everything' in the Universe, and the Life Species.

God/Us in human form, our High Tech Ancestors, cannot make the Elements or a Universe, nor can any High Tech Human today.

Some of the things we Humans accepted as Truth in Religion, was expressions made by Body Birth Humans, without High Tech Science.

What is Life after Death in Heaven, with High Tech Knowledge? Living Life decays back to the Elements.

The Ever Living Religious God/Us are our High Tech Human Ancestors in Genesis. These High Tech Humans can use High Tech Science for Eternal Regeneration Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

God/Us were Colonizing a Home Planet for the Adam and Eve Clones, to have another Space Base in our Solar System. Evolution had to happen on another Planet, up to God/Us, who Colonized Earth.

Genesis proves High Tech did Not Evolve on Earth, up to today for the first time, like some Religious and Atheist Humans Accept.

The Bible, Scripture and Myth with a High Tech Translation, will Prove this High Tech Science Truth of High Tech Humans on Planets and in Spaceships before Today.

[Susan]

Bill, I wish there were more stand-in-the-gap people like Francisco Ayala!

I totally think people like Richard Dawkins are feeding right into the agenda of organizations like Discovery Institute -- because when it's presented as a choice between God and Darwin, devout believers tend to dig in their heels and refuse to listen. I know that's what I did for a long time ... I'm so glad I stumbled upon the wonders of Theistic Evolution.

Iggy, as usual, you come up with the coolest videos ... the Persistence Hunt sure looks intriguing and hopefully we'll watch the whole thing this weekend. Of course, this mean some here will say I'm "praising" you -- but I seriously don't think you're God -- I just think you find cool videos. :)

Red Biddy, I'm glad you don't see any use for statments like "Religious crazies need to crawl under a rock and die" -- but I am rather shocked that you'd liken Jesus laying down His life to give others life, with suidide bombers laying down their lives to destroy life.

[Will Graham]

The latest "New Atheist". Victor Stenger, tells us that the universe has always existed.

So he accepts the concept of the eternal.

Which refutes those who try to deny the concept that God has always existed, such as Dawkins as some of the "older" "new athesists".

Its hilarious how they are always trying to have it both ways.

[Will Graham]

True insanity at work;

"I am actually looking forward to the last few seconds of my life and see what it feels like to be dying"

KCF, 11:33 a.m. post

This from the guy who tells believers to "SHUT UP AND DIE".

I tell you one thing, Bill, this is not amusing anymore.

YOUR integrity is on the line here.

[Susan]

Iggy, what a great video about the Kudu persistence hunt!

After watching it we stumbled upon a video titled "Tippi and the Bushmen," depicting a little Caucasian girl seemingly being adopted into a tribe in the African bush. After viewing it we just had to learn more about Tippi ...

And found out she's the daughter of French parents who spent her early years in Africa, and is now a teenager living in Paris who's retained her love and vision for Africa. On the second link, you can scroll down and see the movie trailer for "Tippi -- The Girl Who is Bridging the Gap to Africa."

This seems like a fitting addition to our discussion on bridging gaps, whether between religion and science, or religion and Atheism. Plus just a lot of fun stuff to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFIAcwEUgec

http://freshtopics.blogspot.com/2007/10/tippi-girl-who-is-bridging-gap-to.html