Christianity's global reach: 9-22-09
Faith WITH works: 9-24-09

Faithful care of the Earth: 9-23-09

Several years ago, when I was still a full-time staffer at The Kansas City Star, I wrote a longish piece about how people who would identify themselves as conservative or evangelical Christians have become much more interested in environmental concerns, which they often called "care for the Earth" or "care for the creation."

Globe

The subject has gained considerable traction since then, as groups such as the Au Sable Institute of Environmental Studies, led then by Calvin DeWitt, have found ways to connect scientists and people of faith who have an interest in environmental matters.

Yes, you still find some people of faith who say this whole area doesn't deserve much attention because, after all, the world is coming to an end soon, so why bother?

But generally the ecological concern among evangelical Christians is real and growing -- and for good reasons.

The most recent academic look at this subject has come from the University of New Hampshire, where researchers have found that a the green movement is creating common ground on which evangelicals and secular environmentalists can stand.

In the end, that common ground is our home planet, and it must be cared for no matter how long we have left to live on it.

* * *

NO, GOD DOESN'T WANT YOU TO DO THIS

OK, look. I have said this before but apparently it needs to be said again and again: If you think God has told you to go harm someone or stalk someone, chances are really, really, really good that the message isn't really from God and that you need mental help. Get it. Don't go to Jewel's ranch in Texas and stalk her. Just don't. If God needs to speak harshly to Jewel about something, God will find another way.

Comments

Will Graham

Bill, I have a serious question, but I suppose it will be ignored.

You say the stalker you mention should get mental help?

Well, on this MODERATED blog believers keep getting told to SHUT UP and DIE. As Susan has pointed out, these posters seem to mean it, and have said it repeatedly.

Do you think somone who does this needs mental help?

And what benefit does it do to keep posting their messages? After all, since you moderate the blog and keep letting them go up you must see some value in this.

But, for the life of me, I can't figure out what that is.

(And if you say free speech, then why moderate at all?)

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

>You say the stalker you mention should get mental help?

Wow, Will actually defended a stalker. That's low even for you, Will.

Yes, stalkers by definition need mental help. I can't believe someone would even argue with that. You have some serious issues, Will.

Dolores Lear

Bill:
"Faithful care of the Earth?" - "Yes, you still find some people of faith who say this whole area doesn't deserve much attention because, after all, the world is coming to an end soon, so why bother?"

Genesis 1:26: KJV. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Luther's Small Catechism. "The Fifth Commandment" 'Human Life And Well-Being'. "Thou shalt not kill" What does this mean? We should fear and love God that we may not hurt nor harm our neighbor in his body, but help and befriend him in every bodily need."

I add, 'nor Kill their Home Planet with Pollution and Nuclear Wast'. Humans lost their High Tech Knowledge, with Body Birth and the Return to the Natural Body Birth Human Lifestyle, of Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth.

With a Population Explosion in the last 100 years, from 1 Billion Humans to 7 Billion, who is taking Faithful Care of our Earth Home, and the Life on it? Religious Humans?

Is there any Land or Ocean area, that is not Polluted with Toxic and Nuclear Waste, and oil leaks?

Even cleaning up oil leaks, the oil goes somewhere, it does not disappear. This oil is setting up the Planetary Last Days Judgment Day Fire, along with all our other Waste Dumps on land and sea.

How much oil, from our cooking goes down the drain, and from Fast Food Stores into our trash? How many sewer drains get clogged? Where does that Waste go? Into the River, that ends up in the Oceans?

Where does all the House Trash go? Into Dumps?
The Nuclear Waste does not recycle, back to Dirt, like Human Bodies do, when buried in wooden boxes, or Cremated.

Continued.

Dolores Lear

Continue.

Where does all the House Trash go? Into Dumps? Does it all go back to dirt? The Nuclear Waste does not recycle back to Dirt, like Human Bodies do, when buried in wooden boxes, or Cremated.

Body Birth Humans are not the Highest Form of Physical Life on Home Planets. Genesis records that God/Us Higher Human Species, did make Perfect Humans, in their Image, and Females from the Male Rib, 'in the beginning', in the Higher Nature of Human Reproduction.

100 years ago, there was only 1 Billion Humans, and few had multiple houses, cars, boats, diamonds, etc., and few were in Concrete Tombs or Boxes for caskets, to tie up Living Elements.

The more Elements we tie up in 7 Billion Humans and counting, and their excessive 'things', the more Elements we use from our Ozone Canopy, and the Life Elements of Earth.

Are Elements from the Sun, added to our Planet's Eco System? IF all Populated Planets pull Extra Elements from the Sun, that could cause the Death of a Solar System.

IF Elements are interchangeable in a Universe, that could cause a Universe to collapse into a Black Hole.

Humans Should Know, the Correct High Tech Use of Earth's Elements on the Tree of Life, for Good and Evil.

Humans should Know Not to Tie up Living Elements, in Extra Material Human 'Things'. They Are Not Necessary for Eternal Physical Life After Birth, and are the Wages of Sin of Body Birth Humans.

Literal Eternal Life is True, for High Tech Peace Human Clones, with Equal Sharing of the Resources, and Perfect Human Genetic and Physical Bodies After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

I'm glad that there is some common ground on at least one issue - environmentalism. That's good news.
===
I just bought the game Playing Gods! I got it here: http://www.worldatplaygames.com/playing-gods-boe001.html but there are some excellent reviews on the Amazon.com website. A bit pricier there, though.

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Exodus:
32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Exodus:
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

There is a lot more in the bible….

We vistited the alpha class last night.

When we divided into groups there was 3 nonreligious people and 7 Xs. Nice people. The leader did a fine job with beginning introductions.

The leader included us by asking us direct questions. They got to know us nonreligious. I was impressed by the techniques. I believe most everybody accepts us, so far. It always goes sour. Maybe not this time.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Will/adam I’m not sure why you shove abortion issues at me. I am not for abortions. For god’s sake. Jesus, you two seem so dense sometimes. Perhaps your comprehension level in reading is not good. If not, it may be to your advantage to work on this.

I ‘am’ for pro choice. As I am for more science. More solutions to create less need for abortions, more education and higher pay, as Lynne has mentioned. I am glad some churches help women when they choose to keep a child out of wedlock or help with an adoption.

I have been thru, with my family, a long and disappointing adoption. There are disappointments in life. That’s life.

There are many ways to curb the need for abortions. Perhaps more scientific and sociological research. The two, both being scientific, I suppose.

Until we know more about “how and why” we think the way we do will we understand how to get along better in a civilized society.

Even though we are not perfect, we do live in the best of times. And a hundred years from now, when I am dead, it will be, then, the best of times.

We are slowly moving away from the superstitious mode. Too bad, thru history, religion has slowed this process down. And it has always protested against science. That is only too obvious. If religion hadn’t slowed it down, perhaps I wouldn’t be dead in 100 yrs. That is simply not fair. But religion has hardly ever been fair until recently. And it is still not enough. That is why all religions are morphing. Even rigid Islam. Interfaith works are helping. If we can just get over superstition altogether we would move faster down that road. Continued

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Continued Bible study was fun Monday night. We are meeting afterwards next week to discuss some of my questions in Luke. This saves more time during the actual bible study since it is only 45 minutes.

I was wondering this myself when I first learned of their discussion on Luke.

One of them loves to give his reborn X comments, which are lengthy, during discussion. He and I both agree how it will be possible get thru Luke with such limited time. Monday we only got thru Luke 1 and only 12 weeks to finish Luke.

Actually last night this person questioned how much time Xs give to god. 85% 90% 100% to god. He compared it to giving his wife 95% of his love. The remaining 5% to another woman would not fly with his wife.

My view on this is how do you give 100% to anything. It’s impossible. We have to live so life is divided to what is important. Eating, shelter transportation, family time. This all depends on our jobs. If we don’t make money all the rest is gone. We all know simply praying does not get us all this.

Give god 100% and see what happens.

Try it some time. Just do nothing for a couple of months and see what happens. Only praying will not fend off those bill collectors or put food on the table. We have to be responsible. This has nothing to do with praying or god. Try it. We have to live in the real world. And we all do. Xs who think prayers work are in denial. Even those Xs who want a roof over their head and a few meals a day know that’s right, ‘they’, have to do it on their own.

When the earth rotates tomorrow and gives the illusion of a sunrise, will we realize we are on our own?

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

adam harrison

Lynne, where did Will defend the stalker?

He asked is someone who told people to SHUT UP AND DIE also needed mental help.

You know that, so the question is, Why are YOU defending someone who tells people to SHUT UP AND DIE?

adam harrison

Cole Morgan, maybe the studies go sour when people find out what you and Iggy are really saying about them on the blog.

You are not going to the studies to learn anything, you are going in an attempt to derail them.

Your litte buddy has confesssed as much.

You still haven't figured out why the other study got cancelled, have you?

Stay tuned, sport!

Lynne, it is for those and other reasons that I no longer think there can be common ground with your side.

You defend those who subtly threaten and try to intimidate.

There can be no common ground. One side or the other will prevail in the 21st century.

I have faced that. You need to also.

adam harrison

Cole Morgan, why do you deny you are for abortion?

You are Pro Choice, which allows abortion for any reason if someone chooses.

Therefore, "choice" is a higher value that "life" to atheists like yourself.

Which means you are FOR abortion. Have the guts to admit it!

Don't be a "wishy washy atheist"! LOL!

Susan

Bill, I've been very glad to learn that conservatives/Evangelicals are getting more concerned about environmental issues. This goes to show that I shouldn't be so quick to pigeonhole anyone -- not even groups I've come out of, groups I think I know really well. People are always full of surprises. There's always possibility for change.

While we can't control "how" people may change their thinking, we can sometims have an influence if we're willing to find enough common ground to talk with them.

And even if they don't change, of course they are still worthy of life. No matter how much I disagree with an individual, and no matter how unlikely it looks that someone will ever choose love and tolerance over hate and bigotry, I still value that person's life and I still don't wish for their death.

That said, while I hate reading mean comments that others have made on message-boards, I wouldn't exactly put this on the same level as stalking, since stalkers are putting themselves in close physical proximity to someone, and into a position where they could do someone actual harm. This is much more threatening than reading a comment from someone who doesn't even know my surname, what I look like, or how to find me.

I think Bill has been very nice and hospitable to let us all keep having these discussions. And I don't think any 2 people are going to monitor a message board in the same way. Bill's a very busy person and I don't think he should have to monitor this blog any more intensively than he is already doing.

Susan

adamh, it's very intrusive and disrespectful to tell someone they are "for" abortion when they keep saying they are not.

I think Cole's and my views on this issue seem pretty similar, though of course we are different people and probably reason it out differently.

As I already shared the other day, we live in a political climate where there seems to be a great effort to reach "consensus" about what's best for children, in terms of education, upbringing, and health care. I.e. some people strongly feel that there should be uniformity of education, at least to some degree.

While I understand the sentiment behind this effort -- namely that there are always going to be some extremely rare situations where parents will use homeschooling as a cover for abuse and neglect -- it's creating an uneasy feeling in many parents whose research and study has led them to diverge from majority opinions regarding how children learn, and regarding the best ways to nurture children's growth and development.

In this climate, I am glad that at least while children are in the womb, mothers still have ultimate say regarding what kind of prenatal care they want, and where and how they wish to give birth. Because in this climate where there's such a strong move to enforce majority opinion regarding education and childrearing, I think there's a strong likelihood that making the womb public domain would give a boost to the current efforts to criminalize homebirth, as well as possibly criminalizing some mothers' practice of choosing non-medical prenatal care.

adam harrison

Susan, as expected, you defend those who call for believers to SHUT UP and DIE.

And the posters who make those comments DO know some of us, what we look like, and how to find us.

Should we be concerned?

I have to assume so.

Susan

I realize a staunch pro-life person might say I'm being really selfish not to be willing to sacrifice the freedom to give birth at home and to care for my pregancies in the way I feel is best, if illegalizing abortion really IS likely (as I believe) to result in increased government control of pregnant women.

But of course at 45, I'm not likely to ever be pregnant again or deal with these issues firsthand. I'm thinking more of the freedoms of my daughters and granddaughters, and other women to come, than I am of me personally.

I realize that when abortion was illegal prior to Roe versus Wade, there wasn't all this interference if pregnant women didn't see a doctor or gave birth at home. Heck, back in the 60's and 70's there were tons of girls giving birth in communes (and at Woodstock) ... The Farm in Tennessee was I think a big catalyst in the whole homebirth movement, because women who gave birth there had such better outcomes than many women giving birth in hospitals.

And government pretty much stayed out of it, as far as I know. But things are just so different now. On the one hand, I like it that people are focusing on children as individuals with their own rights -- and not just extensions of (and property of) their parents. On the other hand, this focus makes it tough if the majority of people are thinking, "If that unborn baby could speak, HE'D wamt to be born in hospital."

Because you see, how do you defend the rights of pre-verbal children? I guess by seeing what the majority of people think they'd want if they were that child in that circumstance. So if the majority think you're doing your child a disservice if you homebirth, breastfeed beyond age 1 or 2, co-sleep, or let them set the pace for their own learning -- then you can end up with a situation where parental rights get stripped away as a means of defending the child's right to whatever is seen by the majority as a normal, healthy start in life. (Continued)

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Adam your response to me on abortion is expected, football.

Your mind must look like the Kansas Speedway. Going in circles. A doggy chasing his tale/tail. You and Will twist it however you want to tell it.

I don’t care why the bible study was canceled, Adam. Plenty more to go to. Are you insinuating you know something about it? Well, then have the nerve to say so. Chicken?

You don’t know what happens in our groups or at our bible studies because none of you ever show.

We are going to a dinner and movie tonight in Kansas City North. Anyone want to go just ask for info.

Want to see a couple of funny videos? Check it out below. Don’t miss the lady’s video below Kirk’s. It’s a riot!

Kirk Cameron says that he and like-minded activists plan to deliver 50,000 copies of an altered version of Darwin's book to students at dozens of U.S. universities.

Amazing how misinformed and mislead Kirk Cameron has become. What a banana head.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/22/kirk-camerons-origin-of-s_n_294349.html

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Susan

(Continued) The interesting thing to me is that it's generally conservatives who want to defend parental rights and the privacy of the home, who are so opposed to women having the power to be self-determining about their pregancies -- at least with regards to abortion: I've met both liberals and conservatives who support the right to homebirth, and I imagine there are some on each side who think it should be illegal.

And it's generally liberals who want to defend the privacy of the womb, who would like to see more government involvement in families, particularly in homeschooling families. But of course there are all kinds of people in-between.

I see myself as primarily liberal, except that I think it's healthier for government to leave families alone, and respect parental rights and the privacy of the home, except where there's evidence that parents are abusing or neglecting their children. The tough thing is finding evidence without the government getting involved -- which means that the only way to protect EVERY child is to increase surveilance for EVERY family.

Because there are always going to be those few families that look normal and healthy to neighbors, etcetera, but are really cesspoos of abuse that would never get detected, because people in casual contact with the family would never see cause to suspect anything amiss, or a reason to make a report.

Similarly, I'm sure there are some mothers who opt for abortion because it's legal and relatively safe -- so outlawing abortion might result in those mothers deciding to carry to term, and either placing their babies for adoption or getting assistance to raise them themselves. But of course as Lynne says, others would end up dying in back-alley abortions.

And, as I will now say for the third time, I think outlawing abortion would also result in increased governmental control over ALL pregnant women, becuase there are just too many people these days who want to enforce their opinions regarding what is the best start in life for other people's kids.

Susan

adamh, in what way do you think I'm defending "those who call for believers to SHUT UP and DIE"? I've made it quite clear that I don't approve of anyone making comments like this.

It is not "defending" to say that I see a distinction between saying something mean on a blog, and actually physically stalking someone.

I understand that it's tempting to want to simplify the complexity of life, to the point where everything is black and white, and people are either 100% good or 100% bad. But when you are so quick to see everyone who doesn't think 100% like you as your enemy (i.e. I don't define Iggy and Cole as stalkers, so to you this means I'm "defending" them telling you to crawl under a rock and die) -- it's like you are just refusing to find enough common ground to discuss anything with anyone.

And here is probably where you'll say "Well what about Iggy and Cole? THEY'RE not finding common ground!" -- and you may be right. But this right now is about you. It's a challenge to examine yourself. Why does so much of what you say have to be a reaction to how others have offended you? Wouldn't it be more interesting and educational to discuss the actual issues?

Harry

Susan: "I realize that when abortion was illegal prior to Roe versus Wade,....."

I'm not sure if this was true in all cases. As I recall, it was a states issue. It was illegal in some states, but there were 16 or 17 states where it was legal. If Roe v. Wade is overturned it will not make abortions illegal like the "Pro-Lifers" want everyone to believe. It will just return to the states. Some will ban abortions, others will not.

By the way, hang in there. Your well reasoned comments provide a good counterbalance to Will/Adam's paranoia against athiests and other liberal "nonbelievers" such as you and Bill. Their arguments remind me of some of the high schoolers I have run across in my years of teaching.

adam harrison

Susan, you think it is disrespectful for me to tell someone they are for abortion when they keep saying they are not?

People who tell people to Shut Up and Die deserve no respect.

Cole Morgan is for abortion. Thats what pro choice means. It puts "choice" above "life".

Cole, quit being a Wishy Washy atheist and just come out with it, sport!

And Susan, common ground would be great, but there isn't any with them.

And discussing actual issues would be great, too, but they won't discuss...Iggy made that clear months before you got here.

GOT IT, SUSAN?

They don't WANT TO DISCUSS!

THEY WANT US TO SHUT UP AND DIE!

Where is the discussion, SUSAN?

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Wow, Adam you got your feathers all in a ruffle. Stress is one of the top killers in America.

Adam, I am pro choice. I said I was pro chose. What I am saying ‘is’ there are other ways to minimize abortions. I have been listing some of these. Do you read my posts? Doubtful. Sounds like you just pick out what you want to comment on and are blind to the rest. Like cherry picking the bible, huh, baseball? I would like to see no abortions, too.

And I never said “and die”. You should pay attention Columbo. I said I agree with Iggy with: “shut up and crawl under a rock…” Never said die.

Ever hear the old saying a certain generation needs to die out. It’s not talking about murder but the evolution of a cancerous plague simply fades away, dies out. I can’t speak for Iggy, but perhaps that is what he means. You need to ask him for yourself. I never said it, ping pong.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Dolores Lear

All these abortion discussions and disagreements, are not necessary on a High Tech Equal Male and Female made from the Male Rib. They are Equal Helpmeets, not Mates.

There are No Children to Abort, because there are No Planet Problems with: No Husbands/Wives, Parents/Children, Male/Female Inlaw Families, Governments, Religions, etc.

Natural Human Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth Reproduction, is not used on a High Tech Peace Planet. When Perfect Clones descend to the sex act, their Planet ends up like Our Unequal Killing Body Birth Home Planet.

Male and Female Clones have Evolved up to High Tech Clone Helpmeets that Do have a High Tech Beautiful Planet Lifestyle, with the Same Equal Shaaring Lifestyle in their Spaceships.

There is No Killing and War, No Divided Governments to give their Allegiance to, there is only One Equal Government on One Equal Planet.

Groups of Clones make up a Spaceship Crew, with the same Lifestyle as on their Home Planet. They do have High Tech Science Regeneration, to Keep their Bodies Young forever.

High Tech Regeneration is the Fountain of Youth, that Humans keep looking for on a Fallen Human Planet. Humans on Earth use High Tech to keep their Faces and bodies younger looking, but they cannot Regenerate the Aging of their Bodies as yet.

With our High Tech, Humans can explain Adam and Eve Asexual Celibate Males, and their Female Clones. And Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

This is not Science Fiction today, even with our Baby type of High Tech, used for Evil more than Good.

And the Equality and Peace that exists on a Equal Peace Planet, passes all expectations of Religious Heaven and Paradise, After Death, for Fallen Body Birth Religious Humans.

Red Biddy

Susan,
You seem very concerned about possible government interference in families, home birthing, etc.. but did you know that the United States are way down on the list of Western nations in regard to infant survival ? We are listed as 29th worst according to an article in NY Times. (Center of Disease Control) Why do you think this is ?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/health/16infant.html

One view in the article was that it was due to the quality of private care here - we spend more than other countries but the quality is not as good. Think on it.

Just Thinking

If someone loves their neighbor, then they will want to preserve and protect the planet for them. Money and greed are driving the opposite approach.

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