Are we all Hindus? 8-31-09
Holy Land 'narratives': 9-2-09

A date living in infamy: 9-1-09

Germany-Poland

Seventy years ago today, German troops invaded Poland, marking the start of World War II.

The eventual result was the destruction of much of Europe (to say nothing of Japan and elsewhere), the murder at the instigation of Hitler's Nazi government of two-thirds of Europe's 9 million Jews and the systematic death of millions more.

That number included perhaps 3 million of the intelligentsia and leadership of Poland, the wounded land on which my co-author and I have focused in our new book, They Were Just People: Stories of Rescue in Poland During the Holocaust.

No one -- not even Hitler -- knew on Sept. 1, 1939, that so many Jews and so many others would perish. But, as usual, a poet had at least a clue of the trauma to come, even if neither he nor anyone else could imagine the scope and the detail.

W.H. Auden, in his breath-taking poem, "Sept. 1, 1939," wrote this:

I sit in one of the dives

On Fifty-Second Street

Uncertain and afraid

As the clever hopes expire

Of a low dishonest decade. . .

The unmentionable odour of death

Offends the September night. . .

The habit-forming pain,

Mismanagement and grief:

We must suffer them all again.

At the break of that awful day, Hitler's fierce machines swept into Poland from the Baltic in the north to the Slovakian border in the south. They smashed the brave but inadequate Polish resistance. As Leni Yahil reports in the book The Holocaust: The Fate of European Jewry, "The Polish army fought valiantly but never had a chance."

So 70 years later, what have we learned? Well, we've learned how to murder each other with more efficient weapons. We've learned to say "never again" to genocide but we haven't learned how to stop it. Witness Darfur today. But we've also learned -- at least some of us -- that if we don't teach history to our children they will neither know nor care about what went before them.

But what I hope we also have learned is a lesson the great religions teach, a lesson Auden captured so poignantly in his poem:

There is no such thing as the State

And no one exists alone;

Hunger allows no choice

To the citizen or the police:

We must love one another or die.

Every prophetic voice today must speak this message -- or 70 years from now, if not much sooner, we will send the armies fierce dictators across weak borders again, and yet again the unmentionable odor of death will offend the air.

(The photo here today of the German invasion of Poland can be found at http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/05/82305-004-9B11B5D2.jpg)

* * *

OBAMACARE FOR FAITH?

Faith communities, it turns out, are having a larger-than-expected voice in the Obama administration, this report suggests. Well, everyone in America should have a voice in government. The question is whether constitutional lines are being crossed. That was my worry when former President George W. Bush created his faith-based initiative and it remains a concern under President Obama. It's an area Americans should watch closely.

* * *

P.S.: Please plan to join me and my co-author, Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn, at one of the two upcoming (Sept. 10 and Sept. 13) events described here to launch our new book, They Were Just People: Stories of Rescue in Poland During the Holocaust. Rainy Day Books will be there to help you buy a copy and you'll even get to meet some of the people whose remarkable stories we tell in the book.

Comments

Will Graham

Bill, some great points in that post. YOu asked, "what have we learned?"

We have learned how to murder people with more efficient weapons; and modern scientists continue to provide better and better ones, and even better methods of "tracking" people so they can't get away...the methods of keeping tabs on people were unimaginable to the dictators and SECULAR governments of the past.

And you say we've learned to say "never again" to genocide? Well, we say it, but now we call it something else even as genocide is being committed against the black unborn.

You also say that we have learned to teach history to our childre so they will know and care what went before...but you add "AT LEAST SOME OF US".

Face it, there are regular posters here who think "old stuff" should be forgotten, reminding me of the saying that "history is bunk". Of course, they have their own reasons for wanting that history forgotten.

Those who keep trying to tell us that we are getting better and better have to be either Willfully Ignorant or, frankly, lying to serve some other agenda.

The New Atheists have learned nothing from this.

http://hitlerandchristianity.com/tag/exterminate-christians

Will Graham

By the way, I see that Iggy laments that the Sunday night Bible Study was cancelled and he can't imagine why.

Well, who knows? NAYBE someone found out where it was and simply pointed out to the pastor the type of things that were being said on THIS blog about the PURPOSE of their "Bible bashes"...as they call them on their webisite...and the Pastor decided that they were not really interested in discussion.

I mean, that COULD be what happened, but who knows? (chuckle)

PreacherDJ

Susan,

I'm finding it hard to be on this site enough to have good dialog. I apologize. I had asked you a question before with the intention of following up, and never did.

Regarding your post yesterday about theistic evolution, I think there are two crucial questions to ask - if literal Biblical creationism is not true and macro-evolution is true, where did sin come from and where did death come from? According to evolution, death is a necessary component - survival of the fittest and all the rest die out. If death did not come from the sin of Adam and Eve, then it had to come from God Himself. And that is a very different God than the one of the Bible.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

PreacherDJ wrote>>>>>>>if literal Biblical creationism is not true and macro-evolution is true, where did sin come from and where did death come from?

Preacher, If creationism ala Bible is not a fact (I am not even using the word "true" as it is not "factual"), there is "no sin" and "death" doesn't come - it just "is". What the hell are they teaching you Christians in America today and before? What planet are you Christians spending most of your time? Have you ever seen "no death"? - No, nobody has - besides the comic book named "Bible" which should be discounted for "rationality" purposes

PreacherDJ wrote>>>>> According to evolution, death is a necessary component - survival of the fittest and all the rest die out.

Death is "part" of evolution, but NOT a necessary part. There are species like these that are "living fossills" http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=living%20fossil&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi - they are "perfectly" (more or less) adapted to their environment and they don't need to "change/evolve" too much. Make no mistake, they evolve, but extremely slowly as there is no "natural selection" pressure and "death still" place, only on a "different scale" of evolution. I don't have a formula but rest assured that "death" is "part of their evolutionary" ladder. They may have differnt reproductive cycles, longer/shorter life span, etc.

PreacherDJ>>>>>>>>>If death did not come from the sin of Adam and Eve, then it had to come from God Himself. And that is a very different God than the one of the Bible.

PreacherDJ,

Do you have imaginaation for anything else besides "god?" Could there be an answer "just is"? You "crazy" Christians suprise me with your non sequitors and false dichotamies all the time.

E.g. "Who created the Universe?" Try "What is the cause of the Universe?"

"Who created death and sin?" Try "Let's undersand the biological and chemical changes that lead to death".

You "create" your own sin, Preacher. It is a "sin" not to understand it. To blame it on some Adam and Eve is "sin" and "abomination" which requires a new brain cloned for you and the rest of the "theist"

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Adam said, “So, Cole Morgan, I see now THERE WAS NO BIBLE STUDY last night!
AND I understand now why you don't give notice of more than an hour...you realize the study may be cancelled but you want us all to show up out there anyway!
With only fouty five minutes or an hour there won't be time for us to call the church and see if the study is STILL ON!
Because the answering machines will be on!
And you KNOW THAT!
NOW WE GET IT! Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...you sniveler.

And I thought I was a skeptic. I never knew we would be asked not to come back. You are such a conniving individual. You think this way. Well, seeing how your god is, I suppose it doesn’t surprise me after all.
Yesterday Susan said, “And, of course, not liking our current prison system in no way means that there's some "better" system from the past that I'd like to revert back to. I still agree with Lynne and Cole that things are better today (at least in the democratic world) than they've ever been before -- but of course there will always be room for improvement. So let's just keep moving forward.

That’s what I’m talking about. Lets keep moving forward.

I would like to say this, the entire world is moving forward, some faster some not. I think the group who is moving faster is keeping the other in check more than ever. Even though there is bad happening in the world it is by far better because we are aware because of modern technology in media coverage. Technology equals science. More science the better we are- Continued

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Continued
I still like what my friend, Julie says about Iggy John, I and others who are handing out fliers and going to bible studies: “we are planting little seeds.”

I have seen it first hand. You can’t do this by sitting around criticizing what others are doing. You have to be out there. Outside the box.

Great bible study last night with the Lutherans. Mostly women lead by Anthony, from Africa, who has dismissed evil demons, the devil, from poor souls in Africa. I will have something to say about this later.

Preacher DJ you are in denial of the real world. You can never have enough evidence about evolution yet you choose words written in a book by broonze age people about another myth god. Amazing.

Bill, people have been sneaking in religion into our government since the beginning. People always think their make believe god is going to help us. And it always takes away civil liberties. What does this say about humans?

Overall our world has never been better. When religion leaves the natural world alone it will even be better.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

PreacherDJ

KCFreeThinkers.org and memberofKCFreeThinkers.org,

My question was addressed to Susan, who self-identifies as a Christian. The question would not make sense to either of you because the basis of the question has not been established. So your response to it is irrelevant.

Dolores Lear

Bill.
Best wishes on your book tour.
Hope your book will help Humans see where Human Life is today, with Nuclear Bombs on land and sea, 70 years, after a War to End All Wars.

Ever since Purebred Adam and Eve Humans Reproduced Misbred Humans, they have been Killing Each Other and their Home Planet.

Society today does reproduce a Human Fetus in the Lab. So it is not impossible to reproduce Human Life on a Planet by High Tech, as did God/Us in Genesis 1, 2., in their Human Image.

So what have Christians and Religious Children of a Religious God, and GOD/LIFE, learned from Wars and Rumors of Wars?

Allegiance to Country before their Religious God and GOD/LIFE? Does being a Conscientious Objector to War mean standing up for a Religious God or GOD/LIFE?

Or going to jail for your God belief, like Cassius Clay/Mohammad Ali did in the Vietnam War?

What do Atheists of GOD/LIFE do when it comes to War?
Are there Atheist Conscientious Objectors also?
Were Atheists Some of the USA Citizens that fled to Canada in the Vietnam War?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=11581.0

What does Serving a Religious God, or GOD/LIFE mean?

It is Time to Translate Religious Scripture and Myth to Accept High Tech Peace Humans, in our Image, did Colonize Earth, and Reproduce Peace Prebred Caretaker Human Clones.

They fell to the Lower Nature of Natural Reproduction, and Reproduced Killer Humans with Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth.

Defective Humans began Killing Each Other and our Home Planet Base. What do Fallen Humans do now?

Call upon the Name of the Lord God in Genesis? Or Which Name? GOD/LIFE?

Susan

http://www.theistic-evolution.com/

PreacherDJ, I thought I'd start off my response by giving you the above link, to a site created by Carl Drews, a Christian who also has a good grasp of evolutionary theory. On his site he discusses the whole death issue.

I believe the death that entered in was not physical death (which has always been a part of our world) -- but rather a sense of our being separate from God.

As to where did sin come from, I feel like I'm on a lifelong journey in trying to understand that better. I've been interested to learn through reading Daniel Quinn that at the projected time of The Fall recorded in Genesis, archeologists have also discovered the beginnings of an entirely new form of agriculture -- a very aggressive form of agriculture which tipped the Earth's balance EXTREMELY in favor of human survival over other species' survival.

It seems to me that The Fall began when a group of people began to get an inkling of how they could have greater control of the food supply, which would ultimately give them power over other people. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I think The Fall had to do with us realizing our power to manipulate and control our environment, including controlling other people.

I believe we moved into a sense of really being aware of ourselves as separate beings -- kind of like the way a toddler starts realizing he can go his own way. Toddlers definitely seem to be in that phase of learning about their autonomy. Erickson labels this phase "Autonomy versus Shame and Guilt." It's exciting to feel so completely on-our-own -- but it's also scary because there's so much unknown out there, and also so much we can do to mess up our lives.

And yet -- the toddler's sense of aloneness isn't really a reflection of the truth. His mother is still there caring for him, available when he looks for her. And God is ever and always with us, too.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

PreacherDJ wrote>>>>>>>>.. The question would not make sense to either of you because the basis of the question has not been established.

Preacher, what planet are you spending most of your time on. You "have" established teh basis for the question - "If death did not come from the sin of Adam and Eve, then it had to come from God Himself. And that is a very different God than the one of the Bible."

You are 'ESTABLISHING" god - not the Biblical god but "a" god or "the" god. The rest is just details - or "sin". Anything denying/conflicting "any god" in any monotheistic faith is a "sin" in one shape or another. Just don't try to pin it on others who have nothing to do with your "god".
____________________
RE: Faith based initiatives in Obama's administration...

This issue is not discussed too much recently. He has not abandoned the office I think, so some programs are still going on. I don't hear too much about fedral dollars going to "secular" and "atheistic" organizations, but I think they are "more intellectually" honest than demand special treatment under the law, though I don't think they will not get the funds if they went for it. I think it is by "default" meant that only "faith based" organizations can apply. Have not heard of any Muslim or Scientology asking for any money either.

He is still looking for a church to "call home" - a smart move, keep the crazies and moderate Christians guessing and attend as many church denominations as you can to "spread the risk" and also "build up connections." I would not be suprised if he'll attend a church open for gays and gay clergy, but again, I maybe wrong.

He did not attend any events on the "National Day of Prayer" - it was pretty quiet around White House on that day. Good, keep it this way, Obama.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Today's topic of the blog - World War II - "day living in infamy" will be forgotten in about 100-500 years and very few people will be talking about it per se as a "lesson" or a "historical marker". In 1,000-5,000 years there will be "no" memorials and services to remember D-Day, end of WWII - it will be "a blur" in the societal/world consciosness.

War will be already so "deeply" implanted as a "no no" in our understanding of how we can live together than it will be on par with us "not even thinking" about "theory of gravity", "why we breathe", "why we pee and poop" - "we just do".

WWII and all atrocities will be forgotten like all the past wars and will be all blended together.

Who remembers today the conquests of Alexander the Great from Middle East to India? Who remembers today the 30 Year War? The Civil War is remembered and it is now "blended" with the "civil rights" issue and the war by itself was just a "means" to correct the wrongs. It's been just recently, but it will too go into oblivion.

People will build up their own "zeitgeist" of history with "wars" becoming "absolute abomination" and they will be "thrown out of our collective minds".

Just like "great music" of the past, Biddy :o) Attention span of today's folks in Western society is rather narrow, it will happen. It is happening already.

When you are under a rock :o) and not taking a "bird's eye view" :o) it is tough to see. And this is where Hannibal Lector comes in for atheists and others - nobody is immune.

SilverSmith

Dont Forget,

Though not his sole aim, Hitler did invade Poland to protect the ethnic Germans who were being persecuted. As a reprisal for the German aggression, (egged on by the Poles and Allies), non-Germans slaughtered thousands of ethnic Germans. Right or wrong, I think if this happened to Americans, quite a few of us would be clamoring for war. Heck, we are willing to bomb a country in the Middle East that poses absolutely no direct threat to us. Who is worse?

Susan

Bill, I forgot to mention how much I love that last line of Auden's poem -- "We must love one another or die."

That's it in a nutshell -- and, PreacherDJ, I think that's a huge component of the death that entered in with The Fall. When our ancestors evolved to the place where they became self-aware, this awareness also included the power to choose. We reached the mental state of being able to choose whether or not to develop our empathy for others.

And that's essentially the battle we see being waged through the millenia -- a battle between our urge to look out for ourselves and our group -- and our urge to learn, to connect with those outside our comfortable "box," and to expand our definition of "us" until there is no "them" to be against.

Will, when I say these are the best of times -- again, I am not saying there's no need for improvement, because there is and I think there always will be. And I am definitely not in favor of forgetting history. I think there's a reason why we're all born with a natural love for hearing stories -- stories give us a sense of where we came from and where we can go.

It's important to know about the choices that led to hate as a means of defending one particular group -- such as the hate Hitler worked so hard to propogate.

Iggy, thanks for the new links about whale evolution and transitional fossils! I'm hoping to watch these with my family sometime today.

Dolores Lear

SilverSmith:
"Dont Forget, Though not his sole aim, Hitler did invade Poland to protect the ethnic Germans who were being persecuted. - Heck, we are willing to bomb a country in the Middle East that poses absolutely no direct threat to us. Who is worse?"

And all these Humans that were fighting then, all Claim the God of Genesis, that 'Said' "Thou Shalt Not Kill". So what does this Killing mean?

God is a Figurehead to try to control Body Birth Humans? Why did the High Tech Humans God made, also not follow the God/Us in Genesis' Rules, that made these Humans 'in their Perfect Asexual Male and Female Clone Image'?

Why did the High Tech Born Human Clones, not Reproduced by Body Birth, return to being Evolutionary Humans that Reproduce by Natural Heterosexual Body Birth?

Today we do Reproduce in a High Tech Lab, but only Human fetus', and Clone same sex Animals.

So what is the High Tech Human next step? Make an Artificial Womb, and Reproduce Human Clones?

Or have a High Tech Nuclear War and Kill All Life on Earth, and, also our Eco System and our Ozone Canopy with our Misused High Tech Science? Is this the Fallen Human Destiny, to Wipe Out this Killer Species?

God/Us in Genesis, were Humans that Colonized Earth, and made Human Male and Female Clones in their Image. What went Wrong? A Human Defect, OR ,,,?

Will Humans today Know this Earth Human Life Reproduction Mystery, of the Fall of Perfect Human Male and Female Clone Helpmeets?

Before we Blow up our Earth Home Space Base, with Nuclear Bombs made from our High Tech, to show our Hate of our Misbred Brothers/Sisters Species of LIFE?

Susan

I think I should clarify that of course I don't see our urge to protect ourselves and our group as a bad thing. It's often very necessary to survival.

I just think the godly direction for humanity to take, is for the confines of "our" group to get wider and wider, until everyone is "us."

Of course we will always have our own families, and our own children who look to us personally, and to whom we have a personal responsibility to nurture and protect. That's only natural and right.

But I just think the circle of our "tribe" should be widening. To re-quote Auden, "We must love one another or die."

Red Biddy

We may very well have forgotten WWII in 100 - 500 years as KCF (in prophetic vein !) wrote to-day but we now have the means to keep our history very much alive, with movies, books, television etc... things we never had in the past. Remember that stunning series by Ken Burns on the Civil War. Wonderful !
As for me I'll never forget September 1 (or it may have been the 3rd, when Britain declared war on Germany) as it was the only time I ever saw my mother cry. I didn't understand why at the time, I was only 5, but within a few days when the bombs started dropping and we had to spend most of our days in an air raid shelter, (basically a hole in the ground with corregated iron over the top, which my father dug in the back yard), I sure did !
Funny thing was, that after the war when the boys came home and we were still on ration cards etc... people of my parents generation thought it was the best time they'd ever had ! I think the feeling of "we're all in this together, was very uplifting for a lot of people. That "band of brothers" stuff in shakespearian terms...really works.

Susan

Will/adamh, are you, or are you not, in favor of our secular government?

Please note: "in favor of" doesn't signify agreement with everything the government does. It doesn't mean "glorifying" our secular government or our secular society, and it doesn't mean pretending that our government is perfect.

You can be in favor of our secular government, and still recognize its flaws and speak out against the injustices that are still occurring.

To say that things are better now (in the democratic world) than they've ever been before, ISN'T tantamount to saying things are perfect.

With this in mind -- is there some other form of government that you guys think would be preferable to our nation's secular government? I know you say you're unfamiliar with the Coalition on Revival, and you say you're not in favor of a Christian theocracy (you feel the question of theocracy was totally-resolved when Jesus said Render to Caesar what's Caesar and to God what's God's) --

So, if you don't want a Christian theocracy what do you want? If those of us who think things are improving here in the democratic world are, according to Will, Willfully Ignorant or lying -- then WHAT particular society and legal system and WHAT particular time do you see as superior to what we have today?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Susan,

you are right, the crazy Christian troll wants theocracy - this is what our own blog derived Christian crazy "Will Graham/Adamh" wrote as "Goldstein" see e-mail below - http://exchristian.net/2/2006/08/disowning-conservative-politics.html.

Also do search on this blog for "Goldy, Andrew, Blair, Stauffenberg" - you will see he has been using a wide array of names - more than this on this blog an others - you will come across the same dude with irrational statements like this left and right.

You will see again and again that this person is the same individual (s). There are references on this blog I think or others that the troll is in Kansas City - as his IP addresses have been identified and blocked many times. The language he uses on that blog is identical to the language he uses here - "Q.E.D" and quotes from Sam Harris and Dawkins on "notorious jewish lobby" and "killing for believing" - slam dunk this is our Christian troll.

An interesting thing, the same "trollish" behavior and vitriol of equating science with atheism and pushing anti religoius agenda banned James Christensen (the Master Debater and Glorious Leader) from Kansas Citizens for Science blog several years ago. His name came up for years on other scientific blogs too.

Here is his post below...

Boyd is trying to accomodate the left, in his own way.
And it will do no good to try and accomodate and respect you people [atheists]. As most of the posts show, you will still spit on us [Christians] and despise us.
That is why we need to go for theocracy!
The whole enchilada!
No compromise.
EVER!

adam harrison

Igor's 10:22 am post is a statement of Nihilism, not just atheism.

And of course he wants to dismiss the past; atheist death camps...gulags...are such an unpleasantness, and they disrupt the free flow of his inane propaganda rants.

LOL!

My of My, Igor, you must have really been picked on when you were a kid in school! Bahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

adam harrison

Susan, to answer your question, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is Gods."

I can't improve on that. If thats not good enough for you, too bad.

adam harrison

Susan, to say things are better now than they have ever been before is, frankly, uninformed.

Never before has mankind had the capacity to not only destroy itself, but poison the planet for millenia.

I am starting to think that you don't understand what wmds are, or else you believe the official line that the use of nuclear weapons is not longer a real threat. In fact, it may be closer than we think if Iran gets its way.

And I believe life is being devalued more and more in this secular society; Pope Paul II called it a Culture of Death.

You keep saying that "we live in the best of times", and if you mean in a TECHNOLOGICAL sense, that may be true, but in a moral sense life is devalued as never before. After all, our society accepts, with some grumbling here and there, the murder of a THIRD of the unborn.

Did you realize that, for example, the mass murder of civilians in war as an instrument of policy really only became popularly accepted with the events of World War Two. Oh, civilians were certainly killed in the past, but they weren't usually deliberately targeted.

The twentieth century gave birth to methods of war that would have made Napoleon ill.

So, no, I don't think things are getting better.

In fact, before our lifetimes are passed, we, or our children or nephews or neices, may be victims of Secular Science.

Red Biddy

All these posts about whether we are living in the best or worst of times has had the memorable opening paragraph of Tale of Two Cities buzzing around in my head for days ! Here it is :-

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the age of incredulity, it was the season of Light it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only."
'bout sums it all up doesn't it ?

Susan

Yes, Red Biddy, that about sums it all up. It is definitely true that there is now the ability to do really horrendous stuff, faster than you can blink an eye. So maybe the "worst" always increases with the best???

adamh, the best to me is not "just" technology -- it's the growth in empathy such that there are fewer and fewer people with the "us versus them" mentality. I think in many ways technological advances, such as television and the internet, have exponentially-helped people all over the world to communicate and reach understandings that previously could never have happened on so wide a scale.

I agree that while our potential for empathy is exponentially increasing, so is our potential to do harm. So Red Biddy is right in bringing up that opening paragraph of Tale of Two Cities.

Now, adamh, what I still haven't heard you answer is -- if you don't like our nation's secular government, what form of government do you think would be better?
________________________________________________
While most of the Catholic Church seems very much in favor of the President's healthcare reform proposal, Kansas City's Bishops are expressing concern. The commenters, though, all seem to think KC's bishops are cow-towing to conservative supporters. Here's the link to the article in the National Catholic Reporter --

http://ncronline.org/news/kc-bishops-sound-alarm-about-%E2%80%98socialization%E2%80%99-health-care

Red Biddy

I read something rather alarming to-day. In the latest Washington Spectator there is an item about how the lies about the Health Reform Bill are being circulated.
Apparently it's all coming from a memo posted on the website of the Liberty Counsel, a Christian law firm and advocacy group related to Jerry Falwell's Liberty University in Virginia ! Yup ! Wouldn't you know it and some of you guys want a theocracy. Are you nuts ?
I'll try and find a web site for this information to post here so you can read it all for yourselves. Unbelievable.

God is a conservative, but his Son is a liberal. I think this may be the problem with the American version of Christianity !

Bill recommended a book called The Family - it's all in there - the right wing using a version of Christianity (not one I recognize) to further their business, political interests. It's funny but scary at the same time.

a.theist

Cole wrote -

"And I thought I was a skeptic. I never knew we would be asked not to come back. You are such a conniving individual. You think this way. Well, seeing how your god is, I suppose it doesn’t surprise me after all."

At least I think Cole wrote it - maybe he's quoting someone else.

If Cole wrote this, what does it say?

Red Biddy wrote -

"God is a conservative, but his Son is a liberal."

Not exactly.

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