Learning kindness: 9-9-09
Why we remember: 9-11-09

What Father Divine taught: 9-10-09

How many of you remember Father Divine (pictured here)?


He's worth remembering, and this is a good day to do it. He died on this date in 1965.

He considered himself God incarnate. Some people thought he was insane. Some thought he was God incarnate. Some thought he was a fascinating man who was right about some things about wrong about others. I put myself in the last category.

What I think we can learn from Father Divine is that we must take great care about to whom we pledge our religious allegiance. In the New Testament, one of the John epistles says we should test the spirits to see whether they are of God.

As you can read in the biography of Divine to which I've linked you, he never wanted to talk much about his earthly existence or history, so we've had to guess that he was born George Baker in the 1880s in Savannah, Ga.

But just because he was right to stress peace, for instance, doesn't mean he was right about everything. And his followers would have done well to be more discerning about that.

* * *


The White House is not the only source of messages to schools and pupils. The Vatican just issued this letter about religious education. It's sort of interesting to compare this to President Obama's speech to students the other day. A fair amount of common ground.

* * *

P.S.: Please plan to join me and my co-author, Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn, at one of the two upcoming (tonight and this Sunday) events described here to launch our new book, They Were Just People: Stories of Rescue in Poland During the Holocaust. Rainy Day Books will be there to help you buy a copy and you'll even get to meet some of the people whose remarkable stories we tell in the book. 


Will Graham

Bill, you say some people thought he was God incarnate?

I thought that guy was in the White House.

Will Graham

Bill, perhaps you missed KCF's 7:31 am post yesterday. but, if not, I am wondering why you think his talking about "cutting our skulls open" and "performing abortions in his basement" contributes to the "discussion" but Adam using a four letter word or two does not?

Dolores Lear

"..we must take great care about to whom we pledge our religious allegiance. In the New Testament, one of the John epistles says we should test the spirits to see whether they are of God."

How do Humans test the Spirits or Spirit 'Beings', that walk and talk like Humans? How many different God 'Beings' and God Spirit 'Beings' are there?

1 Corinthians 3:16. KJV. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

This Temple of GOD/LIFE is called our Body and Soul. The Body is made from Atoms and the Soul from the ElectroMagnetic Force. All LIFE Elements are made by GOD, not by Humans made from the Elements.

God/Us in Genesis in our Human Image, and Jesus a Human, are not the GOD of the LIFE Universes, in whom we move and have our 'Being'.

How do we test the Spirits to see if they are of God? By High Tech Science? Natural Born Humans without High Tech Knowledge, do not Know about GODs LIFE Elements that make Visible/Body and Invisible/Spirit LIFE.

With our High Tech today, we do 'Know' Humans can Reproduce Humans in a Science Lab. Humans do not have that High Tech perfected.

It is Time, to Translate All Supernatural Religious Scriptures and Myths, to reveal the Truth of 'Eternal Peace Physical Human Life After Birth', on Planets and in Spaceships.

GOD nor God/Us Kill. Unbalanced Elements Kill.
Body Birth Humans Kill, and will make the Planetary Earth Judgment Day Hell Fire, with their Hate of Each other with their Nuclear Bombs and Nuclear Waste.

All LIFE on Earth will return to GOD/LIFEs Unseen Spirit Atom and ElectroMagnetic Elements to be used again.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Christian trolls write>>>>>>>>> Bill, perhaps you missed KCF's 7:31 am post yesterday. but, if not, I am wondering why you think his talking about "cutting our skulls open" and "performing abortions in his basement" contributes to the "discussion" but Adam using a four letter word or two does not?

Looks like Bill is not going to answer as he normally doesn't answer to personal pleadings on this Blog. 2 years ago when I brought the truth of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his Messiah Hannibal Lector (not to be confused with Hannibal Lecter, the infamous thug and serial killer - a fictional movie character) and the Holy Noodly Appendage as the Holy Trinity - the blog has accepted the reality of the Holy Trinity and I think that Bill understood the creative Universal power behind them.

Bill gets the point - it is pointless to argue against tasting each other brains, when Jesus says the same about tasting his body and drinking his blood. As a matter of fact, Jesus is a "messenger/prophet" of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and has been preaching "New Testament" while Hannibal Lector is the "Newer and the Final Testament."

I am glad that Bill understands it and has been generous with his blog to allow the world to know that "tasting each other brains" and opening each other skulls is what needs to be done more and more and "cloning" of "crazy Christian brains" is a mandate from god - the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all of us - including moderate Christian.

Bill is a righteous man and the Flying Spaghetti Monster thanks him for it.
Preacher says God wanted him to hijack Mexican jet.

Jose Flores, a 44-year-old Bolivian preacher who lives in Mexico, had gotten the word from God that he had to warn Mexicans of an impending disaster - an earthquake "like none there has ever been," he told reporters after being hustled off the plane by police without anyone being injured. Read More at> http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/1434473.html


Bill said, “In the New Testament, one of the John epistles says we should test the spirits to see whether they are of God.”
I tested some spirits last night and I didn’t get one answer from god.

Several months ago a woman told us her husband had a formula to tell if a message was truly from god. After a few emails back and forth, he wouldn’t meet with us, it all came down to we had to open our hearts to jesus to know the formula. It always turns out this way. No PROOF. Just talk.

We should live in the real world and promote science.

God belongs in the heads of the believers not in school. In school we should learn facts. Studying myths is fun, but studying myth to be fact is too funny.

It is strange the notions some people get attached to.

A theist posted, “If we show up, would this be the kind of well reasoned 'brain tasting' we would experience? Again Cole I cannot fully express my contempt for you and iggy because Bill won't post it, but suffice it to say that NO rational person would attend to be abused by you two.
Oh and what did you think of the letter I emailed you??

I think you have our meetups wrong. You and others show up sometime and find out. While you are there you guys can count how many show up.

I find the word contempt, so lawyer like. I have no contempt for you. Why do you feel that way about me?

I never received an email from you. Maybe you got my address wrong. Or it went to spam. I delete everything that goes to spam. Try again: colemorgankc@yahoo.com

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Christian trolls wrote>>>>>>
Its so great, I am going to use in on dozens and dozens of sites as an example of the state of atheism in Kansas City.

Please, do. I cannot wait to see it. It looks like with you Christian trolls it is all talk and no walk. "Dozens and dozens" of sites? - please, post some where you post later so we can check it out and muse at your tenacity :o) I think you trolls have been "trolling" and saying this for months - you have not provided any proof of posting anything to other sites and even if you did, who cares? - the folks on other sites have their own problems, you think that Kansas City is the center of the "intergallactic" battle between "crazy Christians" and "rationality?" - far from it; just a "sliver".

Either way, cannot wait to see you post to any sites - don't forget to post the links here. "Dozens and Dozens?" - OK, so this assumes at least "two dozen" for the first "dozens" and "two dozen" for the "second" "dozens" - 48 web sites minimum where you'd post. I will settle for you to show regularly (at least once a week or a month) that you post updates on KC Atheism on "one dozen" of web sites :o) - 12. So, every month, you will provide us with links to these 12 sites :o)

Christian trolls wrote>>>>>>I am sure that if he has a wife and kids they would also be proud!

My wife doesn't care, she is an atheist too. She doesn't care about "BSing about BS" - your god and an egg in yoru brain he has laid. She is an "ap-atheist", she doesn't come to any Meetups, to her religion is "crazy", she knows about our Bible studies and me posting on this blog - she really doesn't care, it's not important to her. She doesn't read this blog, she doesn't talk to me about the blog, god or religion, this is not a concern for her at all.

As to my kids? - they are 17 and 16 they can care less about what their parents do. They got their friends, their texting, XBox 360, going out, their own interests, so them being proud of my position on religion is not something they think about - I am irrelevant to them when it comes to religion.

We talked about religion a few times way back seriously; they are "closet Christians" because of their friends, but it looks like young people today don't care to "be serious" about their religion, so they live their life as if god is not there - just like everyone else. They "never" read the Bible, never will from what I can tell, they don't go to church with any of their friends, they think it's stupid, but they do hold some "deistic" view of god, they don't even know too much about Jesus, maybe that he is "the god?"

Them "being proud" about me when it comes to religion? - they really don't give a hoot. Typical of their generation - the way it should be.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Will wrote:
>Bill, perhaps you missed KCF's 7:31 am post yesterday. but, if not, I am wondering why you think his talking about "cutting our skulls open" and "performing abortions in his basement" contributes to the "discussion" but Adam using a four letter word or two does not?

Based on what Adam has written in the past, my guess is that Adam was not using those four letter words in the light-hearted silly way that Iggy talks about cannibalism, but rather in a red-faced, angry ranting way. Typical of some fundamentalists and all authoritarians you and Adam are far too easily provoked to anger. It's to the point where you don't even have any control over your own emotions - you are allowing yourselves to be completely controlled by someone who is NOT getting angry like you are, but rather is having fun with the fact that you are so easily provoked. I'm sure you imagine that Iggy is just as seething with anger as you are, but I would bet money that he's merely laughing at you. (A sucker's bet if there ever was one!) You're not important enough to be an enemy - you're merely a form of entertainment. If you two were smart, you'd lighten up and not give others so much power over you.

Dolores Lear

"We should live in the real world and promote science. - It is strange the notions some people get attached to."

I live in the real world, and promote High Tech Science Human Eternal Physical Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships. But everyone thinks it is strange the notions I get attached to.

Why is God/Us, High Tech Science Humans, in our Image, Colonizing Planets and traveling in Spaceships, strange notions for Humans in the past, and for Humans in the present?

We Reproduce a Human Fetus in the lab, why not finish the job in a High Tech Womb? Impossible? God/Us in Genesis made Human Females, supernaturally from the Male Rib. Were they Physical Human 'Beings' or Spirit 'Beings', in our Human Image?

Were the Adam and Eve Clones, Real People or Spirits? Are Humans on Earth descendant from Spirit 'Beings' or Human 'Beings?

Are Religious Scriptures and Myth about Spirit 'Beings', and was their Science Fiction in that Civilization, like we have Science Fiction about Space Humans today?

Or is Religious Scriptures and Myth about real Human Beings, that Supernaturally Colonized Earth in Spaceships?

Was Scripture and Myth Human Fiction Writings, and Life on Earth Evolved the last 100 years, up to our High Tech Science today Real Truth Writings?

It 'is' strange the notions some people get attached to.


If Jesus , as a man, existed he was a hippy of his time spreading the word…

And the word? It’s different with each of us…

Iggy, I think it is great your kids don’t give a hoot. Religion is morphing as it should. As it can only do if it is to survive.

Chimps Pack Specialized Tool Kits

Why 09/09/09 Is So Special


Best Multitaskers Are the Worst

For the Sake of Goodness Cole

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Cole wrote>>>>>>>>>.Several months ago a woman told us her husband had a formula to tell if a message was truly from god. After a few emails back and forth, he wouldn’t meet with us, it all came down to we had to open our hearts to jesus to know the formula. It always turns out this way. No PROOF. Just talk.

Cole, it is actually getting pretty "self evident" that there is nothing but "faith" involved - period, end of story. This woman was so excited about the proof her husband had that she did not "know herself" what it was! :o) - she admitted in the Bible study when she gave us her husband's e-mail address. It was interesting... She was the one who actually thanked us profusely for coming to the Bible study and "strengthening" her faith with us asking questions, pointing out "inconsistencies" in the Bible and "logical constradictions" - pretty much her words and not necessarily in teh same order.

Having exchanged a couple of e-mails with her husband it was pretty clear to me and then you pretty much sealed it - all there was is "faith" and "it will be given to you" - dog chasing its tale.
Check out this about William Lane Craig, a renown Christian apologist - The Craigening (Refuting WLC's Proofs Of God, Part I) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veB1uUOv6Vg

However you dice it, it is faith, opening your heart to Jesus and "playing with your brain like poo as if you were a baby" the way I see it - Craig's comments are parsed one by one - it makes it pretty clear.

Getting really boring hearing the same testimonials about Holy Spirit or "it all boils down to who do you think Jesus is/was" - Whoever the hell you want him to be! - is my answer.
Bill Maher - Biblically Incorrect - Faith Based Humor and Christian conversation (8 parts of 10 min each) - hilarious!



I agree with Lynne's assessment of the situation between Iggy and the conservative Christians here. And about the freethinking events: the ones I've attended have always had well over 3 or 4 people. So Iggy and Cole are telling the truth when they say that more people are showing up than are responding at the site. But I imagine everyone here knows this -- some people are just being willfully ignorant.

And regarding someone's allegations a couple of days ago that it's a "reflection on my integrity" that I didn't see any reason to jump into the polygamy debate -- everyone can read the Bible for themselves and make their own assessment, as to whether the Bible approves of polygamy or not. From my perspective (a woman's perspective), it's a really bum deal for women and children -- it's also a bum deal when women get stoned for not being virgins and when women with a message for the Church are told they need to be silent in the Churches.

This is why I talk about whether "the Bible" approves, and don't say God. As I keep saying, I think portions of Scripture reflect sexist male biases against women. And as I've gotten increasingly-specific about this, the conservative Christians have simply dropped out of that particular discussion ... remember 1 Timothy 2:11-14? When I added verses 13 and 14 in which Paul gives HIS ACTUAL RATIONALE for limiting women, the conservatives realized it wouldn't work to keep going on about "historical context," so they dropped it like a hot potato.

What does that say about their integrity?


Iggy, we've started watching that video you linked to about the origin of life. Thank you, it's all very interesting, and I hope to finish it today. Of course it doesn't prove or disprove anything about God, to learn the CHON formula that says carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen are the building blocks of life. It's just exciting to think about how it all may have happened.

It actually kind of goes in line with what Pope Paul II taught through his Theology of the Body: that every spiritual reality has a physical/corporeal manifestation. And the more we learn about the corporeal manifestation, the more we learn about the spiritual reality. So studying and grappling with the actual chemical combination that results in life, can be a spiritual exprience for those of us who experience it that way.

Bill, I didn't see much similarity between the Vatican's letter and our President's speech; for some reason I just found it a lot harder to attend to the letter than I did to the speech. I guess I just really like our President's speaking--style -- it's easy to connect with him and identify with what he's saying.

Though I am thinking that I really do need to take the time to read through the whole health care proposal. What I'd initially understood was that the home visits would be an OPTIONAL service.

Now another homeschooling parent (a very intelligent one who scrutinizes everything) is quite sure that if the funding is provided, the home visits will become a mandatory thing, and not something parents can opt out of. I'll have to let everyone know what I think after I read the whole document.

adam harrison

Lynne, your remarks about Iggy's "light hearted" remarks about cannibalism just shows, if you really think that is funny, that you are ill willed as he is.

But if you think he has power over us, you are as delusional as he has become.

He wants us to SHUT UP and DIE!

The fact that he CAN NOT shut us up is proof of his impotence.

And Iggy, you say you want us to tell you what sites we post on?

What the Hell!?

You have been saying for months that we have been posting "all over the internet day and night for years"!

You mean you were LYING about that too?

adam harrison

Lynne, regarding you 8:58 am post about Iggy, you are dead wrong.

He was seething with anger when he called the Master Debater about someone texting him and calling him gay, etc.

He even threatened to call the police, as he has threatened before.

Sounds to me like he got pretty angry! LOL!

adam harrison

Susan, you are certainly aware that in Matthew 19:4-8 Jesus explained the polygamy situation.

But being aware of it, you ignore it.

That is what raised questions about your integrity; that, and the fact that no matter WHAT the atheists say, you always excuse it and pass it off as a joke, but make a big deal about any joke we might make.

Its your double standard showing again, Susan.

In fact, I can't think of many example where you have defended Christianty against Iggy's misrpresentations.

adam harrison

By the way, Susan, we never dropped the "historical context" argument. We continue to stand by it.

But Matthew 19:4-8 is the view of Jesus himself. Two separate issues.

And you keep calling us Conservatives; I for one am not.

But face it, you hate us as much as the atheists do...I mean I can just feel all that "love" you keep talking about flying from your posts. LOL!

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

I wish there was internet and YouTube 2,000 years ago when Jesus was walking around, we'd have things like this to contrast and compare what was said and what kind of a person he was.

It would be actually a great thing if everyone in the country had a video camera running on them all the time and the files were encrypted and uploaded to a secure server where only law enforcement on court order could have access to.

This would eliminate a "huge %" of "false death row cases", "ease" legal system as there would be unequivocal proof that someone did not do what they are accused of doing. All privacy matters aside (to me this is such a minor thing that I would not even worry about it - I'd be more worried about getting a leg broken when I walk around my house), we already can be tracked by our cell phone compnay wherever we go by the cell tower signal. The benefits will by far outweigh the negatives. One thing I can hear coming out of the crazies mouths - 666, government conspiracy to get into our private lives. OK, let's create a "voluntary" system of "tracking" - you already can do that by paying your cell phone company $5-10 a month to have a GPS fix on your kids, iPhone has this feature too, all that needs to be added is a small program on your cell phone that can be activated and record your video or audio all the time. The bandwidth for this already exists in 3 and 4 G spectrum, it's just a matter of "voluntary" sign up. I would not have any problems with it - hell, why not? I'd like to have access to it all the time so I can refresh my memories and post stuff on YouTube, but could not delete it on my own.

Could be "optional", you can do it on your own, can be done state by state or national - whatever. This will also make YouTube a more interesting place, so "stupids" like Pat Robertson and Rick Warren can be caught red handed for their behavior.

Maybe video recording could serve as "god?" - we would not need a Bible to tell us to be moral :o) - it will be all on tape?

Pat Robertson Calls Larry King Viewer a Homo

Rick Warren Says Presidential Candidates Must Believe in God. Warren would vote for a Satan worshiper though as he'd be a person of a "different religion"

Rick Warren - I've never even made a statement about Prop 8 - WTF?

adam harrison

Sounds like Iggy would like to have Big Brother watching our every move.

This, of course, reflects a totalitarian mindset, but, to be fair, you can't really blame him for it since he was raised under an officially atheistic educational system.

Look what he says, "It would actually be a great thing if everyone in the country had a video camera running on them all the time" so that law enforcement could have access to it.

Not being a citizen, he has apparently never read the Constitution, and does not understand the right to privacy.

Of course, as long as a year and a half ago he was bragging about being able to "track" and "photograph" people.

Its ironic that he thinks Americans would be fool enough to trust government with that much power.

By the way, our whole gang will be on hand to support Bills book tonight! Hope to see you there!


adamh, I don't know why you would think I'm "ignoring" any part of the Bible, just because I don't feel compelled to comment on every aspect of the discussions here. In Matthew 19:9, Jesus does indeed say that if a man divorces his (faithful) wife and marries another, he committs adultery. But He doesn't directly condemn a man for KEEPING his current wife and continuing to meet her needs, while taking another.

Of course, as a woman "I" know that it's very hard for one fully-attentive male to meet all my needs, so I simply can not accept the idea that any man is capable of adequately meeting the needs of multiple wives. And I'm sure God knows this, too -- I just don't see polygamy being DEFINITIVELY condemned by Scripture. As a matter of fact, the Biblical view on monogamy seems similar to Paul's view on celibacy: That it's better if you can live in such a way so as not to unnecessarily complicate your life -- but do what you must to keep from sinning.

And now you say you haven't dropped your "historical context" argument regarding 1 Timothy 2:11-14. I'm really curious to hear your rationale for taking Paul's STATED reasoning for limiting women (Woman being created AFTER man, and Woman being the one who got deceived and sinned) -- and transforming it into Paul just wanting to protect women from the persecution.

And when I said you'd dropped the argument, I wasn't assuming that you'd changed your opinion: I just meant that when I got really specific about the discrepancies between what Paul ACTUALLY said and what you SAID he said -- you quit discussing it with me. Which made me think you must not know how to respond.

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