New interfaith partners: 8-24-09
The role of religious art: 8-26-09

Baptists, Baptists everywhere: 8-25-09

QUITMAN, Ark. -- So we're driving through this little town in northern Arkansas on Sunday morning and I am noticing churches.


Mostly Baptist churches.

The first is Howard General Baptist Church. And I'm thinking, there sure are lots of Baptist branches. Which is true. In fact, today I'm going to give you an incomplete list of Baptist branches. I'm not sure anyone can compile a complete list, given how many independent Baptist churches there are and how often others change affiliations with this or that group.

But what connects all these Baptists is that they are Protestant Christians who hold that only believers (which means someone old enough to make an informed and free commitment) should be baptized and then only by immersion (as pictured here). In other words, they oppose infant baptism and baptism that requires just the sprinkling or dabbing of water on the person's head.

But because of the Quitman church, let's begin with the General Association of General Baptists. General Baptists were one of two groups to emerge in England during the Puritan reform movement of the 17th century. As Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions reports: "While sharing the view that only believers should be baptized, the two groups differed with respect to the nature of the atonement of Jesus. Those who regarded the atonement as general (i.e., for all persons) came to be called General Baptists. Those who interpreted it as applying only to the particular body of the elect acquired the name Particular Baptists."

Roger Williams, the great religious freedom advocate, is given credit for helping to found Baptist churches in what became the United States. The first national body of Baptists, however, did not come together until 1814, and a few decades later the Southern Baptist Convention set itself up as a separate body, while the Northern Baptist Convention (now the American Baptist Church) was established in 1907.

At any rate, today the Southern Baptist Convention represents the largest group of Baptists in the United States, reporting it has some 16 million members in 42,000 churches. But recent reports suggest the Southern Baptists also face declining numbers, as do many Protestant churches in the U.S.

But you also have:

* The National Baptist Convention, founded in 1886, a historically black denomination.

* The Primitive Baptist Church. (You can surf around on this site and see how you would classify this church. Most would say fundamentalist or quite theologically conservative.)

* Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. (This is the group that includes Jimmy Carter and his church. These folks moved away from the Southern Baptist Convention over various issues.)

* The National Association of Free Will Baptists. This group traces its history back to the early 1700s.

* There's even an Independent Baptist Network, which sort of connects Baptist churches that don't want to be connected in any formal way.

Well, there is much, much more to know about Baptists in this country. If you want a good rundown that places Baptists in context with other religions in this country, I recommend the third edition of the book America's Religions by Peter W. Williams.

* * *


A city council candidate in a town in Michigan says if city workers don't agree to work for $1 a year they are going against the "holy will of God." Is he saying God is a cheapskate employer? What exactly is the message here? 


Traplock said, “Is the atheist plan to demean and insult people into dis-belief?”

One can only be insulted if you allow yourself to be insulted. My goal is to move away from superstition. It does no one any good. I voice my opinion. Voice yours. I live in the real world. Where do you live? Disbelief. I’m not certain what you mean by that. I get nonreligious, but not disbelief. Please explain.

Yesterday Susan posted, “I guess I need to repeat what Cole keeps saying: Iggy and I don't share the same brain. I realize that's hard for you and Will to grasp: I, thus far, have never known the two of you to have a difference of opinion on anything. But in my world, friends can disagree and still be friends.”

Amen, Susan. How is the book by Dennett, going…?

Adam, you just keep on saying that atheists are for abortions. You need to wake up. Lynne posted a very good response to this a few days ago. If we all lived in the real world perhaps we could come up with a solution. Because we are so divided with superstition, politicians have to divide their time to get re-elcted or elected. Get it? Lets find a solution, a rational solution, to abortion. Denying sex won’t work. It’s in us. It’s natural. Sex that is…There are solutions if you can leave god out of it. It is called sciences…

Yesterday Wiil said, “Fnu, you are only judging adam by your rules, are you not?”

Judging seems to come from your god and you seem to think it is your duty to inflict it upon others.

I am only saying, lets do away with bronze age superstition and live in the real world. The burden of proof of any kind of god is upon the one who says it exists. You can’t prove anything, because your god is not there…If it were, you could prove it.

Lets move forward in the natural world and solve issues rationally.

Peace For the sake of Goodness Cole

A theist posted last night, “All that notwithstanding, why don't you just post the address of the church a few days before the study?”

Because, I believe, you want to disrupt it before we all get there. Your track record shows this.

My goal is to meet there and simply discuss with the Xs. You only pretend to know what all of us are thinking, as you do with your personal god. When will you understand this? Even if we did tell you where we will be, you won’t show. You made it clear a long time ago. You don’t want anything to do with some one ‘old ‘ like me.

Who supports Xs going to countries who want to kill them because they are Xs?

Funny how I get very little response to this question. Come on, an 80 yr old man had the balls, do you?

I suppose the Baptists are striving to help fulfill the 33,000 sects of Xs. This shows just how unorganized a belief can be. Which one is correct. Every time we bring up another X Belief in our bible studies, they always point out the ones who disagree with them are not REAL Xs. Say what?


Glen Moon is a nut. God help us.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Will Graham

Just so KCF can't lie about it later, I told him last night that if he would post the address of the study I would show up and bring at least two others to his study.

WE will give him an additional opportunity, so he will have no excuse; if he posts the address before NOON today; we will be able to arrange transportation and bring everybody, Will, Adam, the Master, Clarissa, Julie and a couple of others.

But this James Bond dodge of posting the address just 45 minutes ahead of time won't work. We can't have people on stand by, and putting aside other plans, for something he may not post or that may be bogus.



The video of the city council candidate is beyond any words The guy is "crazy"! The god and Jesus must be turning over in their graves! I would love to come to his Bible study though.

Bill, I don't think god needs any money. It is the "religion" and "infrustrcuture" that needs money. I recall a study somewhere where 90-95% of all the church income was going to cover salaries, A/C, pay rent/mortgage, etc. This sucks compared to overhead of many charitable organziations. However, it the bible tithing is promoted, so apparently the "inspired word of god" was - god needs money, he also needed fat pieces of meat burnt as offering to him, he then needed foreskins (what would he do with the left over foreskins or smooth penisis?)
The History Channel had a two part documentary yesterday "Out of Egypt" - first 1 hour was dealing with human relics of different cultures and second one about pyramids all over the world. I've Tivoed both and if anyone is interested let me know, I'll burn a DVD for you - e-mail

Dolores Lear

What is baptism for? To wash away your sins? What sins?

In the Bhagavad Gita in India, there is a war and the men fly up in the air and have battles. After the battle they go into the river and wash. Is this where baptism in the river came from? To wash away sin?

Our Scientists that worked on the atom bombs in the 1930s and 40s, had to wash completely to be sure their contamination from their work, was not taken from the laboratory.

I accept the Noah/Atlantis Society before the Planetary Flood also had atom and nuclear bombs and fighters up in the air in battle. Two atom bombs were dropped on Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ritual washing in the river, was in religion at John the Baptist and Jesus' time, How did sprinkling also become Baptism?

There are still disputes as to what is a proper baptism ceremony in the Christian Religion. Do Baptists have it right?

Some of the same rituals of the High Tech Human Gods, in our Image, are all from that former High Tech Killer Society.

All Scripture and Myth has information about the World before the Planetary Flood. The Writings Saved, were separated after the Flood.

The Noah/Atlantis Atom and Nuclear High Tech destroyed the Earth with a Planetary Flood, and Humans today with our High Tech will destroy Earth with a Planetary Fire.

This Planet Life Knowledge is in All Scripture and Myth, when translated with our High Tech Knowledge today.

Lynne -

I followed the link and watched the video. That city council guy is both batshi! crazy AND has some SERIOUS anger management problems. Why is it God only talks to the crazy people? Why don't we ever hear people say, "God spoke to me and told me to eliminate poverty. Sign this petition to increase the minimum wage and bring back manufacturing jobs!" Or even "God told me to protect animals from abuse. I'm starting a no-kill animal rescue shelter!"

In the Bible, why didn't God choose to test Abraham's faith by asking him to adopt an abandoned child as his own?

Dolores Lear

"Denying sex won’t work. It’s in us. It’s natural. Sex that is…There are solutions if you can leave god out of it. It is called sciences…- I am only saying, lets do away with bronze age superstition and live in the real world."

The real world today is High Tech Science. The world of Natural Man of the Bronze Age is past, since 1900. Science today offers many ways to protect the Human Sex Act from Reproducing Children. Jesus used Male Celibacy.

What has Pleasure Sex to do with God? Today's Humans Know the Natural Human Sex Reproduction Act, is not necessary to reproduce a Child.

We have done away with Bronze Age Reproduction, and have Reproduced many Children, by the Immaculate Conception of a Human Fetus in the Lab, and then put it into the female.

Even with this High Tech, we had a Natural Sex Act Population Explosion from 1 Billion to 7 Billion in 100 years of pleasure sex, without contraception or religious control.

What are we going to do with this many Humans? Keep Starving them, and Killing them in Wars and other Human Killings?

Why? When the God of many religions today, said to Human Beings, Thou Shalt Not Kill?, and Turn The Other Cheek. What does this mean to Believers?

What exactly Does God Worship involve? Mouth Worship in Temples Built by Human Hands for Sunday? And Killing Each Other and our Home Planet the rest of the week?

Only Killing does not stop on Sunday, or any other Holy Day for any Religion. So what is any different in Society today, than happened in the Bronze Age Religion?

Reproducing Fetus' in the Lab without the sex act to the Female. And making Nuclear Bombs?

Was this the meaning of having a God on Planet Earth?


Bill, the church I grew up in (well, from age 13 to early 20's) was American Baptist, but pretty conservative with regards to women's roles in the church and family, and homosexuality, and so on. In my 20's, I recall hearing some people discussing how our church was identifying less and less with the American Baptists, because of how liberal the American Baptists were getting. I recently learned that as of a few years ago, my old church is now affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

Yesterday adamh wrote, "By the way, when you refer to abortion to 'save a life' you are arbitrarily assuming that the mothers life is more valuable than the childs." Not exactly, adamh. I am assuming that the mother will be more sorely missed by the people she leaves behind, especially any children who are still dependant on her. Maybe it's something you just can't understand until you are a parent yourself.

Maybe this analogy would help: When I was in highschool, I heard about how a small fire broke out in a restaurant where First Lady Nancy Reagan was dining. Everyone else had to remain seated until Mrs. Reagan had been escorted to safety.

It wasn't that the other diners had less human value than Mrs. Reagan did -- just that if something happened to the First Lady, this could distract her husband and affect his ability to lead the country. And it's really about the value of the office, not the person in it.

This is why our Presidents go everywhere surrounded by security people -- but not once they're no longer in office. Once they return to being a "regular citizen," their death is devastating to their loved ones, but it's no longer a huge big deal to the well-being of the country.


Cole, yes I am still enjoying the Dennett book -- but I'm ashamed to say that I'm only about 1/3 of the way through it. Just let me know if you need it back pretty soon; I often have to return books to the library before finishing them.

I am now reading the chapter, "Religion, the Early Days." It's been interesting learning about the universality of divination as a means of making decisions when you're not clear on the best course of action, but need to make some sort of a decision quickly so you can move on with your life.

Reminds me of the mother of a friend of mine. As a young woman, she was dating two men and couldn't make up her mind which one she liked better. So she decided that, all things being equal as they seemed to be, she'd just settle on the one who seemed likely to make the most money. So she married my friend's dad and some twenty-five years later they seemed quite happy and prosperous.

But then, I'm not sure if that was exactly divination. I guess divination would be where you think some unseen forces (whether gods or ancestors) are guiding your choice. Whereas this woman seemed to be using pragmatic, rather than spiritual or romantic, methods for choosing her mate. Not exactly as random as flipping a coin.

adam harrison

Susan, your defense of the mother over the child is, of course, still arbitrary.

After all, the mother has lived a portion of her life, you are suggesting depriving the unborn of their ENTIRE life.

More over, as a Moral Relativist, who admits she can never know the truth, it seems rather precarious of you to decide when murder is acceptable and when it isn't. After all, YOU COULD BE WRONG!

And if you are, you have accomodated something very wrong indeed.

By the way, your analogy to Mrs. Reagan is a false analogy as it confuses categories, and as an anecdotal report, I would need actual verification...not just something you "heard" in high school.

adam harrison

Susan, when you get to the part in Dennet's book where he claims even liberal Christians being responsible for what every Christian does, give me your opinion.

If he is going to argue that, then I am holding atheists responsible for what every atheist has done.


Well, adamh, a quick google hasn't brought up the event I heard about in highschool -- but since you think I'm "confusing categories" anyway, it doesn't seem important enough for me to devote any substantial time to digging it up. It's okay with me if you want to assume that the event never happened.

By the way, I wasn't dictating whether or not an abortion SHOULD be performed any time the mother's life is in danger. And you're right: I'm human and I can be wrong in my judgments. It therefore makes sense to me that the people dealing with the actual crisis, should be the ones with the power to decide what to do.

Are you honestly saying that if it were your wife in this situation, you'd choose her death and tell her, "Well, YOU'RE the one who had sex, and you've already lived a portion of your life"??? (Maybe you'd even reassure her that she'll be easy enough to replace, and that even if you don't remarry right away, "the village" can take over her role in helping to raise this baby and any other children she'll be leaving behind? -- it was you or Will who previously said that if the mother died, "the village" could just take over).

Don't get me wrong, I do think the village is a lot more helpful toward single parents than it was in the past. And things are also much better for children who've been completely orphaned. Whereas it wasn't so long ago that many people would "adopt" orphans as a means of acquiring cheap labor. Orphans were expected to always "be grateful" and never complain.

It's better now, and I think in the future we can make it better still -- but there's seriously no replacement for a child's own parents. True, children who lose their parents young enough can often bond completely with a new family. But this is a heart-wrenching situation for the ones who've already closely-bonded with their own biological mothers.

adam harrison

Susan, I never said anything about "the Village". Neither did Will.

And as to who should live and die, all I said was that your position is arbitrary; which it is... after all, you have repeatedly said that you could be wrong about EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING.

And that if you are wrong, you have done a terrible thing.

By the way, if your little anecdotal story is not important enough to dig up, why would you use it as an argument? Aren't you even concerned about whether or not what you heard is true?

Anyway, you have ignored the most important question from yesterday.

Are you saying that the only legitmate reason for abortion is to save a life?

You do know that is not the reason for the vast majority of abortions, don't you.


adamh, I haven't got to that place in Dennett's book yet. I will try to remember to let you know what I think whenever I read what you are talking about (if Dennett does indeed say this).

But as far as your threat that "If he is going to argue that, then I am holding atheists responsible for what every atheist has done" -- haven't you and Will already been doing that for quite some time, adamh?

If one Atheist does indeed say that he holds all Christians responsible for whatever one Christian has done (I guess that would mean holding all Christians responsible for Dr. George Tiller's murder?) -- I would strongly disagree with this. And I would ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to lower myself to that person's intolerant level, by playing tit-for-tat.

I'm sorry, adamh, that you are such a MORAL RELATIVIST that you're willing to let the people you don't like have so much power over your life. Their moral code (for how to treat others) becomes your moral code. Only it's not really "their" moral code -- since Atheists are a diverse group just as Christians are. What you're really doing is taking the moral code (as you understand it) of the Atheists you find most objectionable, and conforming yourself to that.

This is why you or Will were able to readily sense, a while back, that another poster was being sarcastic when he said something along the lines of "You are such a great example of Christ's love." You guys know that you're really just an example of tit-for-tat. Only lots of times you jump the gun and give your "tat," ignorantly-assuming that "tit" is forthcoming.

Programmed as you are to see "tit," you see "tit" where there is none. Dennett says something about this disorder: it's called the hyperactive agent detection device -- it's what makes a dog jump up and growl at a noise that startles him from sleep. While it's good to be prepared to defend youself, HADD is kind of overkill.

adam harrison

And Cole, what is your lie about us disrupting Bible studies supposed to show?

Other than how big a liar you are?

And stupid one at that; YOU guys are the ones going to Bible studies disrupting things, according to the stunts your buddy claims to have pulled.

You all seem to specialize is picking on old people and women; I got a kick out of him taking on the assistants ministers wife about "wearing pants".

She sure put him down easily.

You lie about believers, you lie about Christians of all kinds, you lie an you lie and you act like you are doing some kind of service.

Keep up the good work. Atheism is action, with its sycophant collaborators drooling for approval, blissfully unaware that you would turn on them in a moment.


adamh, on May 5 at 8:55 PM you wrote, "But as to the child being what? Society will take care of it. After all, as the liberals tell us, IT TAKES A VILLAGE!"

And where is the importance in digging up my anecdotal story about Nancy Reagan, when you've already called it a "false analogy" and said it "confuses categories" anyway? Would my "digging it up" suddenly make it "count" for you? I don't think so, so why bother? I'll just scrap the analogy, and say that I think the suffering that would be caused by the mother's death should be a consideration.

In case you're wondering why I didn't find it important enough to dig up the Nancy Reagan story, but DID care enough to dig up your old quote: the latter was important because I KNEW one of you HAD made the comment whether you remembered it or not -- so I felt it was on me to either dig it up, or else retract what I had said. If it's not important enough I retract, but if I care to prove my point I dig it up. Got it?

I guess that's my little bout with hyperactive agent detection (HAD) for the day. :)

And I guess you missed my response to your question from yesterday: I responded in my 3:48 PM post.

By the way, what I got from reading Iggy's post about the woman deciding to wear pants regardless of the man's opinion, was not that she was putting Iggy down for asking the question, but rather that she was just answering him. Interesting how some people see insults where there are none. We all need to keep our HADDs under control, I think -- or we'll just stay in attack-mode and be stressed all the time.

Dolores Lear

adamh to Susan:
"Are you saying that the only legitmate reason for abortion is to save a life? You do know that is not the reason for the vast majority of abortions, don't you."

What is the legitimate reason for the male to make a baby? He wants to be a father? Or he wants to continue his family line?

One main reason for abortion is that, the male that made the female pregnant, does not claim any responsibility for the Child or the Mother.

What would we do with all the Humans that were aborted? The Male could care less. Our Planet and orphanages are overrun with Humans reproduced from the male lust.

Most abortions were not to make a child by the male or female, which is the function of sex. But Pleasure sex changed the Reproduction Rules, ever since Adam and Eve made Children. God/Us in Genesis did not make Children.

The main responsibility was put on the Male in the past, whether the child was with his wife or mistress. The female gets all the blame for Children, like Eve was also blamed.

Getting rid of a fetus, is not saving a life, it could abort or be born dead, and take both the mother and child. Or have Physical and Mental defects.

You do know that is not the reason for the vast majority of abortions, don't you.

It is getting rid of the result of the Male Flesh Lust, the Original Sin.

Why do Male Christians not follow Jesus, and be Celibate to be like him? That was his reason for Living.

Why call Jesus a God? Because some Humans 300 years after Jesus, made him a Man-Made God?

Is there a God on Earth that is not Man-made? If so Who or What is God? A High Tech Purebred Human Male and Female Clone like Adam and Eve, and God/Us?

Red Biddy

Sam Harris appeared on Real Time with Bill Maher last Friday. You can watch a video of this at this link:

Harris had some interesting things to say about the possibility that people can transform themselves and that that possibility should be studied scientifically....

Bill's cause of encouraging interfaith dialogue is an almost impossible one to achieve. When we have "Baptists, Baptists Everywhere" all believing something different, they are obviously not having much "dialogue" among themselves or they wouldn't keep splitting off into so many different churches.

Don't the Fred Phelps clan of the Westboro Church call themselves Baptists also ?

It's not surprising that there are declining numbers of church goers when you have a complete nut case like the Michigan city council candidate going on line with a video of himself spouting such religious BS.

I bet Bill Maher will pick up that news item for his show !


Creationists, now they’re coming for your children

People who reject the theory of evolution should be placed on a level with Holocaust deniers, argues author Richard Dawkins in his controversial new book

adam harrison

Susan, my remark about taking a village was sarcastic, not advocating turning kids over to the village as you tried to say I did.

As you remember, it was Hillary Clinton who coined the phrase, "It takes a village."

Red Biddy, I love Sam Harris's work; he exposed atheism as the anti human death dealing philosophy it is:

"Some propositions are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them". Harris, TEOF, pages 52-53.

So, he advocates killing people for BELIEFS...not just actions, argues for pre-emptive nuclear war, torture, unrestricted abortion (mass murder) and says the Jews brought genocide ON THEMSELVES!

By the way, IGOR, comparing criticism of the theory of evolution to Holocaust Denial is probably a step to outlawing it just like Holocaust Denial is in many European countries.

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT! They could do crap like that in the corrupt country you came from but the CONSTITUTION of the United States protects FREEDOM of Religion whether you LIKE IT OR NOT.

If you had become a CITIZEN you would know that because you would have had to READ THE CONSTITUTION.

The tactics you use failed when they were used in your homeland, in fact the destroyed your homeland.

Which is why you are here.

Are you so STUPID and STUBBORN that you can not at least learn from the ruin of your own country!?!


Crazy Christians going "Crazier"...

One of the Christian Trolls "Jeremy" has responded to me today that he doesn't speak for the whole "team" - which he said was going to show up for tonight's Bible Study - "whole team will show up".
I recommended that as a Christian troll he crawls under a rock and die out and that he needs to speak to himself and not invoke his "whole team" - see e-mail below.

Our "delusional" Christian stated that he is being threatened with "death" ;o) - wow! I love tasting brains of delusional Xians - this is getting to be too much fun!

I still hope to see Jeremy Whoever tonight at 7:30 p.m. at the Bible study - stand by for the emails if you sent a request. Also, the address will be posted at at 6:45 p.m. (in 1 hr 10 min) and simultaneously e-mailed out.
to Jeremy whoever
date Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 1:40 PM
subject Re: from IGGY - new Bible Study Tuesday 7:30 p.m.

Christian troll - crawl under a rock and die out already.

You should not be invoking "whole team will come" if you don't speak for it - this is "delusional"
Jeremy whoever
to ""
date Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 4:26 PM
subject Re: from IGGY - new Bible Study Tuesday 7:30 p.m.

If you threaten me with death again I will file a police report.

Dolores Lear

Iggy: 3:37 post:
Richard Dawkins:
"Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact."

Who Knows with 'sane Intelligence', how the Atom and ElectroMagnetic Force began to make a Universe? The Universe began before Life on Planet Earth.

With High Tech Science, Life as we Know it is made from Elements. Did these Elements Evolve on Earth? Or another Planet? From Who or What?

Evolution usually only tries to proves how Life Species Evolved on Earth, not where Elements came from.

Humans do Know High Tech Humans can Colonize Life on a Planet, and would follow the 6 Days of Creation in Genesis. Life on Earth was Colonized by a Visible God/Us in our Human Image, that walked and talked, not a Spirit.

High Tech Colonization Knowledge today proves Life on Earth did not Evolve. But where did LIFE Evolve up to the Humans with High Tech, who Colonized Earth?

How else did Life begin from Elements than by Evolving? Will Humans ever Know?

Evolution cannot Prove how Life began on Earth. High Tech Science can, by translating Genesis, All Scriptures and Myth with High Tech Science today.

High Tech Colonization is a Fact today. Evolution is still a Theory. Humans made from Elements may never Know how the Elements and LIFE began in the Universe, but they can Prove how Life was Colonized on our Home Planet Earth.

The Bible also proves Humans in our Image, could travel to Earth with High Tech, and Colonize it 'in the beginning'

Otherwise, why were Scripture and Myth handed down, since Life began on Earth? How would Humans without High Tech, write all these Supernatural Writings?

Are Religious and Myth Writings Make Believe, like our Science Fiction is today? What is Truth?


Posted to http:/// at 6:45 p.m. 7/25/2009

45 minutes is enough to get to this church from anywhere in Kansas City Metro area.

2nd Floor, Room 209
Bethany Lutheran Church
9101 Lamar Ave
Overland Park, KS

Here is the link to the map and directions (you can type in your starting address and route yourself to the church) - click here


Cole wrote -

"Because, I believe, you want to disrupt it before we all get there. Your track record shows this."

Pointing out the obvious lie - I have no record as I would not waste the time it would require to disrupt your silly meeting/study.


Anybody notice that Bill used th expression 'inside terrorist brains' rather than 'inside the mind of a terrorist'?

Sound like anybody you know?

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