Confusing religion, patriotism: 8-12-09
The nature of salvation: 8-14-09

A bit of Quaker history: 8-13-09

Over the years I've never written much about the Quakers, formally known as the Society of Friends. For one reason or another they've sort of slipped under my radar, though I've known Quakers and have long admired their approach both to spirituality and to peacemaking.


Today I want to talk a little about the Quakers because it was on this date in 1682 -- the year after King Charles II issued a charter to William Penn for the colony of Pennsylvania -- that the first Welsh immigrants to the American colonies arrived in Pennsylvania. And they were Quakers. They settled just north of today's Philadelphia. (By the way, the photo here today, which I took in 2007, shows a statue of Penn atop Philadelphia's city hall.) 

The Society of Friends started in mid-17th Century England. Miriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions says the group was "dedicated to living in accordance with the 'Inward Light,' or direct inward apprehension of God, without creeds, clergy, or other ecclesiastical forms."

George Fox is the name primarily associated with the founding of the Quakers. But the English -- especially the Puritans -- fought against the Quakers in many ways.

Quakers began coming to the American colonies by the middle of the 17th Century, but there, too, ran into fierce persecution, including death. But the Quakers, nonetheless, gained followers in Massachusetts, Rhode Island and elsewhere. Finally, Quakers began to collect in Pennsylvania, still a center of the faith today.

Like the Mennonites, the Society of Friends is known today as a peace church. Indeed, the American Friends Service Committee won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1947, along with its British counterpart.

I've often wondered what the Quakers thought of Richard M. Nixon, who was raised a Quaker but who conducted the Vietnam War (which he inherited) with brutality.

At any rate, today the Quakers remain a dedicated spiritual people who call all of us to the ways of peace.

* * *


In my Ghost Ranch class last month, I tried to suggest to people that social networking tools such as Twitter and Facebook can be used as a channel for having their prophetic voices heard, despite all the trivial junk that gets posted on them. Now I see I have some support for that view from a former Hindu monk writing on the Washington Post's religion blog site. Yes, even high-tech tools that the culture sometimes runs into the ground can be at least partly redeemed. By the way, you can follow me on Twitter at


Dolores Lear

Susan: last night.
"I see it as totally-relevant in discussions about faith matters, to talk about how beliefs shape people's attitudes toward children -- and specifically how beliefs about human nature affect how we treat our children."

Adamh: last night.
"I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but its very Freudian; you seem angry, just as Dolores is about body birth, but in a different way."

Children was the Result of Body Birth 'in the beginning'. People never taught about Adam and Eve being Reproduced by High Tech, because it was not available after the Planetary Flood.

But the record of it is still in Genesis 1, and 2. When Eve was made from Adam's Rib, they were not Children. Today we call that Cloning.

Cloning Humans in a High Tech Womb, makes Males and the Clone Females Equal Helpmeets, not Mates with Children. So No Children Problem. And the Group they put on Earth, not just 2 people, had Free Will to Follow Celibacy or not.

It was After Adam and Eve Sinned and Reproduced Body Birth Children, Death began and the problem of who should Take Care of the Children continues today.

Down through History the Monk and Nun Humans did stay Celibate, so it is possible for Humans to live that Way. Only Celibate Male and Female Clone Helpmeets with Agape Love, is the Best Way for Humans to have Eternal Purebred Equal Life After Birth.

Children, Marriage, Divorce, Fornication, Killing, and all the destructive Lifestyles on Earth cannot be allowed in Spaceship travel.

So enjoy, or not to enjoy, Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth until the End Comes, or until we start Reproducing Purebred Male and Female Helpmeets, not Children.

Eternal Physical Celibate Human Life is for High Tech Born, Living Equal Male and Female Clone Humans, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Will Graham

Bill, you can't pin Nixon on the Quakers. Nixon plainly stated in his authobiography that he did not believer in Christ's resurrection.

He was no more a Christian than most of the posters here.

Iggy wonders why there are fewer Christians posting here than last year, and thinks its because they have started to agree with him.

What arrogance!

First, I am not sure it is true; seconed, wasn't he always telling people to SHUT UP and keep their beliefs to themselves?

And I know of many who read Bill's blog but who don't bother with the comments.

I also know of one at least who simply followed the teaching of Matthew 10:14

Will Graham

The Quakers did not beleive in war as an instrument of foreign policy.

Atheists, of course, have frequently promoted killing as a means of solving problems, from abortion to eliminating believers.

From "anti body birthers" crying about "too many people" to unbalanced nuts saying Christianity MUST die.

The most famouw atheist of the last two centuries on war:

"You say a good cause santifieth even war? Nay, I say unto you, a good war sanctifieth any cause!"

Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra

Will Graham

Nietzsche on Women's rights, that has been a hot topic around here:

"Goest thou to woman? Takest thou thy whip!"

Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra

As opposed to Paul, the Apostle:

"Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church."


a.theist wrote>>>>>>>
Maybe the religious people just got tired of reading tripe from atheist fools.
Matthew 5:22 Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire

Matthew 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Paul calls people fools, thus making himself worthy of "hell fire."

Matthew 23:13-36 "Fools, hypocrites, blind guides, serpents, vipers!" - Jesus calls his critics fools (among other things like hypocrites and vipers), thus making himself eligible for "hell fire." (Mt.5:22)

The behavioral modification techniques applied to Christians in my opinion have been working well on this blog, making it a good test case for other religous blogs, attending Bible studies, visiting with religious people at their sermons, homes and all over Kansas City - small steps, small steps...

Behavioral modification of Christians is taking place not just on this blog, but by every day experiences in medicine, politics, literature, technolgoy, news, anectodal evidence of prayer working and harsh reality of cosmos saying that the Universe really doens't care about you. You have not been created to glorify god, you glorify yourself in this harsh and senseless Universe. You live on this rock and all you do is live and survive anohter day - this is the "bird's eye view" of the world. How you go about it is up to you, a.theist.

I'd like to see you sterilized if you fell on hard times and wanted to get welfare as you advocated on KC Crimes blog a few weeks ago. A.THEIST - WOULD YOU PREFER CHEMICAL CASTRATION OR SURGICAL? OR CAN WE JUST DO VIVISECTION ON YOU? - IT'S REVERSABLE YOU KNOW, WELL SOME OF THE TIME?

I can offer my basement for this procedure, let me know. I'll sharpen one of my sharpest knives.

I look forward to visiting with you - I hope you will be the sharpest knife in the drawer :o) at some time. Let's meet face to face and explore your sterilization options. For a religous person, you have a remarkably "dull" perspective on this issue.

Christians, Think!

Dolores Lear

"...the photo here today, which I took in 2007, shows a statue of Penn atop Philadelphia's city hall"

And this steeple/tower, looks like a bomb, or, as Patricia posted in past times, the male penis.

And I also post, many steeples look like missiles. So why do Humans make these steeples on Government buildings, and on Religious Churches? Today we also build circular church buildings, memories of flying saucers? Or just coincidence?

Are steeples a reminder of the Male Original Sin of Body Birth, or the High Tech Killer missiles and bombs of the Noah/Atlantis Society before the Planetary Flood?

Did the Society before the Flood have steeples on their Religious and Civil buildings also. Are our bombs and missiles the same shape, as the ones used in the Noah/Atlantis Society? Do any steeples remain on the megalithic buildings, we dig up from our new Strata?

So what are the countries of the world doing while waiting for the Nuclear War?


PreacherDJ wrote>>>>>>>
You sure spent a lot of time and space writing about who I might be only to conclude that it is irrelevant. For those who are curious, I am a supply preacher, and my initials are DJ (and I was a DJ for a year many many years ago).
Congratulations, Preacher!

Now you know how I feel about all the time and paper wasted on the Bible production around the world over the past 2,000 years plus the time people are wasting on "implementing" irrelevant concepts into their daily lives.

You are coming the full circle and I hope this little bit of "rationality"/"truth" shall set you free. Or rather your mind free and gives you a "bird's eye view of the world".

Are you in Kansas City? Would love to visit with you face to face one day? Maybe you can come to one of our breakfasts or we can meet with you separately. It would be great to pick your brain?
This Sunday 6 p.m. is Bible Study on "Revelation". For info e-mail [email protected]

If any Christians would like to invite local KC atheists to their Bible study or a chat session outside their church - please, e-mail [email protected]

For all FreeThinking activities in KC check out

adam harrison

Iggy likes to pretend that his "behavoioral modification tecniques"...i.e., insults and intimidation tactics...have reduced the number of "religious" people posting here.

First, I see no actual evidence of that.

Second, if there was a change, it came when the KC STAR dropped Bills column from the Saturday religion page.

Iggy's "techniques" had nothing to do with it.

After all, about a year ago he was promising:

1. A Billboard that would bring in hundreds of new members; but ended up not even paying for itself

2. Applying techniques to a major local church that would bring it down in six months.

3. A postcard campaign that would close down the churches in a small town.

4. An atheist relief fund.

5. Etc.

He failed.

He is still failing; although as one person at the Community of Reason said to the Master Debater, Iggy is doing for atheists what Phelps is doing for Christians. Bahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, the little threats on the 8:43 a.m. post are PRICELESS.

They shall be preserved for posterity.

adam harrison

By the wsy, A Theist, KCFreethinkers "bible studies" are a delusion in his own mind.

Try e mailing him or calluing him; he will never tell you where they are, just give you convulted directions that always involve ONE MORE STEP...if you are getting close, he will then text you and say he is runing late so "let's reschedule".

Try it! Its fun! Like a computer game!

He tried to get a female friend of ours to meet in a parking lot with her blinkers on, from which he would "text" her MORE directions.

He actually called her once, and she told him he was a freak.

He didn't take it well! Bahahahaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

Anyone who wants to email us can; [email protected]


No, I don't understand how you feel about the production of one of the best preserved set of writings in antiquity.

No, I don't understand how you feel about the concepts of the Bible, some of which have been lauded by non-Christians that the world has considered great.

No, I don't understand how you feel about moving away from the Bible as a move toward truth. What is the basis of your truth? How do you know it is truth? Because science says so? Science can't make up its mind whether eggs are good for you or not.

I do understand that all that exists could not exist if there were no God. I do understand that everywhere I look, including inwardly, there is evil that offends a holy God. I do understand that there was a preacher named Jesus who said a lot of good things, and claimed to be God, and claimed that He would prove it by rising from the dead, and was crucified. I do understand that either this Jesus had to be a liar, or a lunatic (both of which would indeed make Him irrelevant), or the Lord He said He was. I do understand that almost every one of His closest disciples was put to death because they would not recant their claim that Jesus was the resurrected Lord. I do understand that many people will die for all sorts of things they are mistaken about, but no one will die for something they know to be a lie. Therefore, these disciples were not lying about Jesus being alive, and they could hardly be mistaken about it, since Rome could have shut the whole upstart religion down with the simple production of a body. So it is illogical to conclude anything but that Jesus is resurrected based on witnesses who would not recant even under duress (a greater testimony than most stories you read in the news and believe), and that therefore His other claims must be true as well. It is on that logic that I have hope in this life and the next.


Dolores, it's possible that architectural structures are sometimes modeled after phallic symbols, for the same reason that a lot of pottery is molded into an hourglass shape. Many find a sense of satisfaction in gazing at the lines of the female form, as molded into jars, vases, and bases of lamps around the home. And I think it's similarly satisfying to see those towers or steeples. I guess it's our way of adding our humanity to our landscape.

As far as the "problem" of who is going to care for children -- while I understand that it's challenging to raise a family, I honestly don't see children as the problem. Nor do I see it as a "problem" to take time out from other responsibilities and pursuits to focus in on our kids.

The problem is when options seem so narrow that it feels like an either/or situation for many families. But I'm seeing a whole lot of creativity now being exercised by many families, who are starting cottage industries and finding other ways to be economically-viable while still having a parent full-time with the kids. Maybe one postitive result of this economic crisis, will be that more of us learn to be innovative and craft our lives to be however we want them to be.

Will, I've expressed a great deal of concern here about what Paul has said about women's issues -- not so much concern that Paul, a product of his time and culture, thought women should keep silent in the churches and be subject to their husbands -- but rather my concern is that many Christians TODAY are upholding these thoughts as God-breathed. When you bring up the "husbands love your wives"-verse, I'm sorry but it just seems like another band-aid attmept to say Well, why would you complain about subjugating your will to someone who loves you so completely that they are willing to die for you? (Continued)


(Continued) I mean, suppose that "Big Brother" (aka government) could persuade you that he really loves you and totally has your best interests at heart? Here Iggy is talking about "behavior modification" for Christians, and you know there are lots of loving parents who think this is the best way to raise kids. I disagree, but I seriously don't dispute the fact that the parents who are using behavior modification to "train" their kids, certainly do love their kids and want what's best for them.

But I still think behavior modification for humans is NOT doing the best we can do, with all the really good information that is now available, such as you can find in Alfie Kohn's book "Unconditional Parenting," where he cites a wealth of research to support his claims.

But, back to my original question, just supposing that someone (not God, just another human or organization) could persuade you that they really truly loved you enough to die for you -- would you see this as sufficient reason to surrender your will to them -- or would you maybe still prefer to make your own decisions?

If you were married to this person, of course this would mean that your decisions affected her and vice-versa ... but it still seems likely to me that rather than letting her have "final say" on all decisions because she loves you so much, you would probably still like to have at least an EQUAL say -- wouldn't you? At least if the issue really mattered to you?

Yes, many old-time Atheists and/or scientists (Darwin comes to mind) had some negative views of women. I am less concerned about this -- because as someone (I can't remember if it was Harris or who) has pointed out, in the scientific world having respect for Darwin or Einstein or whoever, DOESN'T mean all their opinions are treated as holy writ, and as the "final word" on whatever issues we are dealing with today.

I have no doubt that there've been Atheists who were more anti-woman than Paul ever was: So I'm not demonizing Paul here: I'm saying the problem is that we're upholding what Paul said as God's holy Word, totally applicable to how we should live today.

adam harrison

Susan, if you look at the context in which Paul advised women to keep silent in the churches, remember that the churches existed in the Roman totalitarian state...Christians were being harassed and worse.

Like totalitarian states of our own time, the Romans used spies and double agents...the wolves in sheeps find out who the Christians were to keep tabs on them.

Anyone who spoke was in danger, and Paul himself was imprisoned on several occassions, tortured, and finally executed. The silence of women in the church, which could be infiltrated, was a definite means of protection.

You talk about what Paul said as not applicable today. Sure, like we live so much better, 50 per cent (or more) divorce rate, abortions that have murdered 45 million, infanticide for the "unfit", you name it.

So your going on and on about the "keep silent" thing is simply a form of quote mining and spamming. Paul wrote a lot of other stuff, like "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church", and the 13th chapter of the First Letter to the Corinthians.

By the way, what do you think of KCFreethinkers remarks about sterilization in the 8:43 a.m. post?

Do you find them humorous?

adam harrison

Lets see, KCFreethinker has previously let us know about the guns he owns.

Now, as he calls for face to face meetings, he lets us know about the Sharp knives he has.

Do any of you find that humorous?

(At the very least, I think is shows a serious imbalance at some level.)


Correction of my previous post: Where I said the problem is that "we" are upholding Paul's words as God's Word, totally applicable to situations today -- I should have said that the problem is that "many people" are upholding Paul's words in this way. I've said enough times that I no longer accept the dogma that every jot and tittle is God-breathed, so the "we" was just a hasty typo.

I wanted to respond to what PreacherDJ said about how science can't make up its mind if eggs are good for you. It's true that if what people are wanting is for someone to definitively state, "THIS is what's good for you" and "THIS is what will make you happy, save your marriage, and so on" -- indoctination with religious dogma is bound to be seen as waaay superior to the study of scientific research.

Personally, I'm so glad they keep continuing with the studies on coffee, because it's nice to have some research saying coffee is good for me, to balance all the doom and gloom stuff. But of course I don't want to silence the findings of ANY of the researchers -- it's good to gain a balanced perspective about whatever we are trying to make a decision about. As it is, I enjoy drinking my coffee in moderation.

But back to Paul's words, specifically on women: I'm glad to hear that not all the conservative Christians here are followers of the Coalition on Revival -- but it still concerns me that there seem to be many conservative organizations aligned with this movement to implement a Biblical Christian World View in every sphere of life.

It also concerns me that there are some Atheists who'd like to implement "behavioral modification" for Christians. But just from my very rough knowledge of our nation's demographics, I must say that I'm MORE concerned about the conservative Christian theocrats than I am about the militant Atheists, because organizations like "The Family' and the Coalition on Revival seem much more likely to gain a foothold.

Will Graham

Susan, you obviously had a lot of problems with your family growing up, and I was sorry to hear that. And you said you don't speak to your mom much, and your sister called Family Serices on you.
Your husband of course has his own problems, having been looked at strangely coming out of a washroom, wanting to grow breasts so he could breastfeed, and so forth.

I treat this respectfully, and don't blame you for any of it of course.

But I found a Wikipedia article that might be helpful.



John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John - and Jesus NEVER CAME!

Christians, Think!
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew16:28
"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luke 9:27
"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matthew 24:34
"Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Matthew 26:64
"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mark 9:1
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30
"And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Mark 14:62
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32

adam harrison

Iggy, when the Master Debater called you, and even offered to meet with you or visit a bible study, why did you say you didn't want to talk to him about anything?

Is it because you know he could answer all your objections? Prove you wrong?

Prove that your bible "quotes" are just guote mining and cherry picking.

Are you afraid? Why? YOU are the one who brags about guns and knives, he doesn't have any of those things.

Whats wrong with you, man?

Are you just that full of hate?

Do you need medications?

What is it?

Call him. He feels sorry for you. (I don't but he does.) He wants to help you.

Dolores Lear

"As far as the "problem" of who is going to care for children -- while I understand that it's challenging to raise a family, I honestly don't see children as the problem."

Children have been the problem ever since Adam and Eve reproduced by Body Birth. Their first child Killed their second child.

Body Birth Brothers/Sisters, have Killed ever since. Society today cannot build jails and prisons fast enough; they are overcrowded.

Why are there so many dysfunctional families whose children are taken away from them? Why are the Orphanages full? Why are so many Children out on the streets?

Because of the Original Sin of Adam and Eve Reproducing Defective Genetic and Physical Children by Body Birth. And no one responsible for them?

Many Body Birth Humans do not Take Care of their Children. All Body Birth Humans do not Take Care of their Home Planet.

"'s possible that architectural structures are sometimes modeled after phallic symbols, for the same reason that a lot of pottery is molded into an hourglass shape."


Many church steeples have phallic symbols. Is that by accident or a suppressed memory of Original Sin. Why has there always been Celibate Monks and Nuns?

Why was Jesus Celibate, and said the Male had to be Celibate to be His Follower? The Female does not reproduce Misbred Children if the Male is Celibate.

If the Males follow Jesus, to be Celibate, the Female will be Celibate also. Christians are still a majority on Earth.

Why not start a Jesus Celibate Movement today? Maybe then we will use that Energy to Take Care of our Planet, and the Life on it.


Dolores wrote>>>>>>>>>>And this steeple/tower, looks like a bomb, or, as Patricia posted in past times, the male penis.

And I also post, many steeples look like missiles. So why do Humans make these steeples on Government buildings, and on Religious Churches? Today we also build circular church buildings, memories of flying saucers? Or just coincidence?
Dolores,You outdid yourself on this one, dear!

The construction of aesthetically accomplished and technically demanding true domes began in the Roman Architectural Revolution, when they were frequently used by the Romans to shape large interior spaces of temples and public buildings, such as the Pantheon. This tradition continued unabated after the adoption of Christianity in the Byzantine.
Steeples generally serve as bell or clock towers. Towers were not a part of Christian churches until about AD 600, when they were adapted from military watchtowers.

Dolores, it's not "conincidence" it is history and "borrowing" from other cultures and applications what works. The dome appears to be the "only" mathematically possible volume that has the most inner space with the smallest outside surface. Laws of math and aesthetics of the Romans that spread all over the world through Western Culture (just like religion did) contributed to this.

Also, by building a dome, you can actually completely avoid any sort of cement as the structure will be self supporting (corbel technique) through gravity and shape of the pieces fitting snuggly as pieces of a puzzle, provided you have a solid and heavy enough foundation to hold up everyhting in place. Also, there were "arches" that used the same principle as well - Roman aquiducks are built this way and some are still operating carring water.

I think you are looking for patterns in the wrong places - interpreting the Scriptures of Christianity - Romans did not give a hoot about Christian scriptures, to them that was annoyance. They surely did not use domes to somehow allow you 2,000+ years after come up with your wacko ideas :o)

You gotta love them though, Dolores! You created another version of a religion that can be tracked and verified.

Society of friends has a nice ring to it. I’m for peace. Too bad they are still superstitious. I think with some of their philosophy they can do a lot of good in the world. Why is it so difficult for people to shake off superstition?

Preacherdj’s post today at 10:23 sounds like a dog chasing his tale. I ‘understand’ you can’t get outside the box. There is another world out there, preacher. The real one. You should try it and see how it compares with bronze age superstition. It’s a world of choices.

Will, said, “Atheists, of course, have frequently promoted killing as a means of solving problems, from abortion to eliminating believers”

Xs have killed nonbelievers and other religions as well. It’s time to move onto the real world, the natural one.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
Friedrich Nietzsche

To learn and move ahead, I think, we take the good from past people, and leave the bad along with superstition in the past. It’s time to make our own way in the natural world. People only pretend to know of the supernatural. It’s like wishing.

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Leviticus 20
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Fred Phelps, along with others, hatred stems from here. From the words of the bronze age people.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Dolores Lear

"Romans did not give a hoot about Christian scriptures, to them that was annoyance. -
Dolores! You created another version of a religion that can be tracked and verified."

The High Tech wreckage of Rome and Greece was from the High Tech Noah/Atlantis Flood, as well as the megalithic wreckage around the Planet.

Some of our big sports stadiums are built like the Ancient Greek and Roman ruins. And we have tigers and lions in them also. :)

Edgar Cayce said the Atlanteans, who were a High Tech Country before Atlantis sank, were being born into the USA in the 1900s, and we were the Country to come up with many of the High Tech inventions, buildings, and atom and nuclear bombs. All like Atlantis had.

So using all kinds of information in the 1900s, Proved for me, Planet Earth was Colonized according to Genesis 1, and those High Tech Humans did Reproduce Human in their Male and Female Clone Helpmeet form.

And did come to Earth from Space in Spaceships. And do keep track of Earth with their High Tech Equipment, and come to check up on us once in awhile.

But they Know the pattern of Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth, and let Fallen Humans go through their Life Learning Experience. They do not Kill, and do not off the Humans they start on another Planet, when they start reproducing Children.

The Misbred Killer Humans do it to themselves, and their Home Planet.

Our Ancestors, God/Us, will return to take another Group to another Planet they are Colonizing now. They are very Patient, and Know and Practice Eternal Physical Celibate Life, After High Tech Male and Female Clone Reproduction.

And only Willing Humans will make it to the Eternal Physical Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships, called Heaven in Religion.


To: adamh and Will Graham

I have a question for you both.
Would you be happy if god sent you both to hell, just to see if I would stop being a atheist for .0002 of a god second?

Please do try to answer in your own words! (so to speak)

What I am has all ways been here, and will always be around John.


Darnit, Iggy, I was kind of enjoying believing Dolores's theory about the domes! Oh, well, at least now I don't have to be consumed with envy, if I ever do get to visit the Dome of the Rock.

adamh, I think Iggy's comments about sterilization were in reference to a post he came across someplace else, in which someone calling themselves "a theist" advocated sterilization for welfare recipients. I think it was yesterday that Iggy posted a link to this comment.

And, adamh, the "women keep silent" verse is followed by Paul's explanation that it's disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. Your theory would hold more water if the "women keep silent" verse was followed with the sort of explanatory note that you were mentally tacking onto it (were you spamming? -- I'm just wondering because I imagine you have probably read the verses right after the verse I was talking about -- yet you willfully pretend not to know about them).

Additionally, in Paul's letter to Timothy where he says he doesn't permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, his explanation is that man was made first, not woman, and man didn't sin but rather woman was deceived and fell into sin.

Yes, Paul wrote some other stuff that was really good. This doesn't mean that every word that flowed from his pen was the Word of God. I have no problem with respecting Paul and reading his letters with an open heart for what God may be saying through them -- my problem is with people assuming that ALL of it is God's instruction to women today.



That is a threat.

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