An interfaith encounter: 7-21-09
Why no church-state questions? 7-23-09

The Episcopal Church leads: 7-22-09

Last week the Episcopal Church gave its bishops permission to bless same-sex unions.

Episcopalshield

It was the right thing to do, and from what a friend of mine who attended the General Convention says, it was done well and with a sense of mutual respect for all views on this difficult subject.

Here's what he said in an e-mail: "I was intrigued by the differences between this debate and the other sexuality debates that I have participated in during past Conventions. By the time that we arrived at this our last day of Convention, it was abundantly clear to everyone that this resolution was going to pass. There was a great amount of respect for the work that the House of Bishops had done. For better or worse, the Church gathered in Anaheim had already discerned that the Holy Spirit was leading us in the direction of same-sex blessings."

The Episcopal Church is leading us toward the proper solution to this matter, which is this: All people wanting to be married should first go to the state and be married under civil law. That would give everyone equal protection under the law and access to the benefits and responsibilities such marriage requires. Then, if the now-married couple wants to have the marriage blessed by a faith community, they can ask that group to bless the union. The faith community then has complete freedom to decide to bless it or to refuse to bless it.

Under this scenario, people's civil rights are protected and religious communities are free to make their own decisions based on their own theology. Why can't we do it this way?

* * *

MUSLIMS DENOUNCING TERRORISM, AGAIN

I tire of people telling me that they never hear about Muslims denouncing terrorism. Here's another example: The Kingdom of Saudia Arabia denouncing the recent terrorism in Indonesia. Yes, it seems like a fairly perfunctory statement, but it's been a pretty consistent public message for quite a while from the rulers of the birthplace of Islam.

* * *

You can follow me now on Twitter. I'm http://twitter.com/BillTammeus.

Comments

Will Graham

Iggy and Cole have announced they have find a bible study to "crash" and that Iggy will appear wearing a Burkha and pretending not to know English. (Nice!)

They have also announced that anyone interested may e mail them and that they will receive directions 30 minutes before the meeting.

Since the directions will be by phone, since we can't sit at our computers and wait (as it may take more than 30 minutes to get there) and since Iggy will not respond to our e mails, we are PUBLICALLY ANNOUNCING that the Master Debater can be reached at 816-517-1428. He will be standing by to receive directions.

This way, Iggy and Cole can't claim they can't get in touch with us. (Anyone of course can verify this for themselves) IF THERE IS NOT CALL WITH DIRECTIONS, THIS WILL SERVE AS PROOF THAT THERE IS NO STUDY. This is just another stunt like they pulled last year.

Will Graham

Bill, can you refer us to any LOCAL Muslim group that will UNEQUIVOCALLY and WITHOUT RESERVATION denounce terrorism in any and all circumstances?

For that matter, can anyone show me an ATHEIST who is unreservedly PRO LIFE in that they will DENOUNCE KILLING AS A MEANS OF ACHIEVING GOALS!

NOTE TO RED BIDDY! I am amused that the faith columnists don't rise to standards suitable to meet your discerning tastes! I suppose you are of course including the columns by atheists. Of course, the swill offered up on a daily basis by Cole and IGGY seems to meet your high standards of scholarship and insight! Hahahahaaaaaaaa!!!

Most amusingly, you even tell the Star they should SILENCE THE COLUMNISTS VOICES by dropping them or the whole religon page entirely.

How atheist of you, "Red Biddy".

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

I applaud Episcopalians for being so progressive with "blessing" gay marriages. It's been a long time coming.

It is now high time for them to start "implanting" into the "psyche" of their parishioners "other" "rational" notions - BELIEVE/ACCEPT THINGS SEEN, NOT UNSEEN as faith is defined now.

It is pretty clear accepting gays is a "major departure" from the religious dogma. I'd equate it with "the Earth is not flat" and "god is not sending his wrath by earthquakes" and "The sun is the center of the solar system, not Earth".

Quite shattering changes. It looks to me that Episcopalians are way ahead of many other denominations. One has to assume that those who agree with this premise will "vote" on gay issues in the "progressive" way when it comes to them being behind a curtain in a booth?

This means most likely that the floodgates of "secularization" and "deCristianization" of Christianity by Christians is well underway, reforms have been going on and for the religious fundies this is the threat they'll be fighitng tooth and nail.

You see, Hannibal Lector works in mysterious ways by Grace of His Holiness the Flying Spagheti Monster - new brains are being cloned every day.

Dolores Lear

Red Biddie: (yesterday, 5:45 PM.)
"One thing is for sure, and Dolores hasn't answered this question yet - did Adam have nipples ? If he did then Eve came first and not Him and He was probably created out of HER rib and not the other way round !

Me:
This is nothing that is recorded in the Bible. If it is in Mythology I did not read it that closely. Except for Atlantis that I connect with the Noah Planetary Flood, I just skimmed over Mythology, and other Trinity Religions of Father, Mother, and Son.

I do not know what you mean, if Adam had nipples then Eve came first and not Him.

With High Tech they could have Cloned Eve's breasts, and they had to change Eve to female sex organs and a womb. I accept Adam came first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilical_cord

I heard Adam and Eve did not have Belly Buttons. But even in a High Tech Womb I image the cord would be necessary. Or at least I say this, until we get to this High Tech.

Do you have a reference for me on Adam's nipples?

A cousin gave me "Great Religions of the World", by the National Geographic Society, 1971. I bought "The Flood" by Alfred M. Rehwinkel, and it describes the Planetary Flood destruction.

And except for paperback books on Gods in Flying Chariots during the 1970s, I used library books to read most all other research, that happened to me.

Some people I talked to would recommend books, that I ordered from the library. The librarian would suggest books, and get some from libraries from out of our system.

This Blog is so much fun for me. At least the Atheists are making comments I have not heard from Religious people. Thank you All for your comments.

adam harrison

The Myth of the Flat Earth teaching:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

adam harrison

For some real entertainment, please note that YESTERDAY Iggy said he is going to a Bible Study tonight wearing a Burka pretending to be a woman unable to speak English!

Nice!

I can't wait! Iggy, please e mail the directions you promised at Jeremy7@nycmail.com

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

RE: Bible Study with Atheist at a Church tonight, Wed 6 p.m.

If anyone is interested to attend, please, RSVP to KCFreeThinkers@gmail.com.

You will be given further instructions on how to proceed and where to be at 5:30 p.m. - 30 min before the Bible study. Please, provide your cell phone - directions will be texted to your cell phone at 5:30 p.m. This should give you plenty of time to make it to the church.

Susan

LOL, Dolores, I found myself wondering what might pop up if I did a quick google of "Adam's nipples" -- but I don't have time to go there now, plus even when I have time I'm not so sure I'd want one of my girls viewing whatever might pop up. Of course, they already know about their dad's nipples ... I'm just not sure they're ready to see other men's lactating paraphernalia yet. :)

Last night, when adamh or Will accused Dolores of leaving her family for her beliefs, I was first shocked because Dolores has often shared how she and her husband continued to be there for one another and for their children and grandchildren. She just changed one behavior -- she didn't abandon her family. This reminded me of what Cole and Iggy pointed out about married men just leaving everything to follow Jesus -- and I also thought of all the modern-day men who've gotten a call that involved them needing to travel.

I'm certainly not criticizing this -- after all, since it's recorded that women and I think children also traveled with Jesus, for all we know the men's wives and families were still with them. But did they have a say? Or was it "pack up the kids and take to the road if you want to be with me"??? What do you conservative Christian males think of THAT arrangement -- the idea that women should just adapt to whatever life God is telling their husbands to lead?

If you're going to blast Dolores for becoming celibate (even though she stayed with her family, and was still a help to her husband in many ways) -- what about all the ways Christian wives are expected to adapt?

PreacherDJ

I wonder how the same "Holy Spirit" who led the Episcopal Church "in the direction of same-sex blessings" could also lead the vast majority of the worldwide Anglican Church to condemn homosexuality? The answer must obviously be that it is not the same spirit. To determine which is the Holy Spirit and which is a false spirit, it is a matter of comparing to what God has already said on the subject in His Word, that homosexuality is wrong.

adam harrison

The Copernicus myth and other scientific myths about religion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_mythology#Myths_regarding_Copernicus

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

******YOUR NON SENSICAL BIBLICAL QUOTE OF THE DAY*********

(John 9:6) "He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle."
Jesus spits on the ground, mixes his spit with the dirt, and rubs the muddy spit on (or in?) a blind man's eyes.
______________
Me: What would you Christians say if TODAY someone was known to cure diseases this way? Would you go to this person to be cured? Or would you rather go see a doctor?

Or would you rather Jesus spit onto your eyes? like in
Mark 8:22-25
And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Think... It makes your brain and the world better...

Dolores Lear

Bill:
"Last week the Episcopal Church gave its permission to bless same-sex unions."
Bill's Friend: "For better or worse, the Church gathered in Anaheim had already discerned that the Holy Spirit was leading us in the direction of same-sex blessings."

Me:
The Perfect Adam and Eve Clones, 'supernaturally' Reproduced, were Equal Male and Female Helpmeets. They should not Reproduce by Heterosexual Body Birth.

The Original Sin of these Purebred Human Clones was, they Reproduced Genetic and Physical Misbred Children, by Heterosexual Mates.

God/Us in Genesis did not Reproduce Children. The Clones did. Why?

Marriage began, the Ten Commandments were set up, to Control Sexual Disease, and Family Incest. Celibacy began with Monks and Nuns.

These Misbred Body Birth Humans became Killers, Pedophiles, GLBTs, with all types of Genetic and Physical defects. And Children were Reproduced without Wedlock. I like that word. :) GLBTs that live together, do not Reproduce Children.

The High Tech Science and Sexual Revolutions for the past 100 years, has Changed the Lifestyle of the Human Species.

GLBTs want Equality in Marriage, even though they do not Reproduce Children. They can have artificial insemination, or do the Heterosexual Act to get a child. Why not marriage?

We are up to the High Tech Science 'in the beginning', of the Colonization and Cloning Knowledge of the God/Us in Genesis. But, not up to the Cloning of a Female from the Male Rib, or physically going to another Planet.

Most of our Resources are for Pollution and Nuclear Waste and Bombs, on our Home Planet, by a Heterosexual Male Run Planet.

adam harrison

Iggy, as requested, you may text our cell phone...816-517-1428. (I post this here because you are NOT RESPONDING TO E MAILS)

We look forward to the study.

PREDICTION: There is no study.

adam harrison

Deaths from medical malpractice...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_malpractice

One solution is to make malpractice a CRIMINAL OFFENSE, not just CIVIL.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

AdamH, please, check your e-mail - response with instructions about the Bible Study was sent to you at 10:11 a.m. below is header of the e-mail.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: KCFreeThinkers.org
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:11 AM
Subject: Bible Study tonight 6 p.m.
To: Jeremy7@nycmail.com

Susan

adamh, it is interesting to learn that Church didn't actually teach that the earth was flat. I guess the real conflict between Church and science was over the Church not liking the idea of the Earth revolving around the sun -- all because, I guess, of the Psalm where the Psalmist writes about the sun rising at one end of the heavens, and setting at the other end.

It's just crazy how Biblical literacy can hang people up, over the silliest of things -- such as a poetic wording.

I think the more recent conflict has been over Evolutionary theory -- and, again, the reason some people feel threatened is because they worry about the implications of even CONSIDERING the possibility that the world wasn't created in 6 days.

Sometimes I think the attachment to Biblical literacy isn't so much a reflection of the actual beliefs of the leaders promoting it -- but rather of their fear that all hell will break loose if people really start thinking all this through for themselves.

As with PreacherDJ's post. It's true that different people feel the Holy Spirit is leading them in different ways. It can be scary to think that sometimes we just need to step out in faith and be willing to risk being wrong about something. It feels safer to rely on Biblical literacy.

The other day an old friend emailed me saying she'd heard a rumor and wanted to make sure that I was okay. I had an inkling what the rumor might be, so I shared some about the theological changes I'd been going through. I said I'd been wanting to talk about it, but had felt hesitant, not wanting to shock and alarm people.

My friend said she wasn't shocked or alarmed, because she knew I knew God. And finished off by talking about how God's Word is the bottomline. I hadn't yet gotten into how I no longer see the Bible as inerrant -- but was impressed to see she didn't do a doubletake when I shared about Christian Universalism. So maybe she has been changing to -- she's always had lots of respect for Billy Graham, so maybe she's been following his changes.

Susan

My old friend also didn't seem shocked over my changing views on homosexuality. And this was the same friend who several years back, didn't feel I should be too open (with Christians) about some volunteer work I was doing with AIDS patients.

She felt it was such a controversial/divisive issue in the church, because of many people feeling AIDS was a curse from God ... there was even a saying going around at this time that it was wrong to say "God bless you" to people who weren't Christian. Of course, now I wouldn't say it because I realize how offensive it is to some who don't believe. But the reason some Christians thought it was wrong back then, wasn't because of concern over offending unbelievers -- but because you'd be speaking God's blessing on evildoers.

But I'm not sure if this proscription was even Scripturally-sound. I mean, the Bible talks about God sending His blessings on all kinds of people. So I'm not sure where that reasoning was coming from. Who knows, maybe it was the Holy Spirit's way of getting some believers to shut up and stop saying "God bless you" to people who didn't want to hear it?!

Oh, and about my friend's concern that it could be divisive for me to talk about AIDS: this whole worry about preserving unity and not being divisive, I think it has caused a lot of people to shut their mouths about things they really needed to speak up about. This motto of "unity at all costs" may be at the root of many injustices that are still going on in many churches.

adam harrison

KCF there are no directions on how to get to the bible study.

Just some jive about being in the Parking Lot at Peter's Clothiers at 5:30 with blinkers on!! Hahahahaha

Would you like me to post the e mail?

I told everybody you were bluffing and would not give directions; you seem to forget that you tried this before on Clarissa and it didn't work!

Do you remember what she called you when you talked on the phone?

Red Biddy

"Incredibly President George W Bush told French President Jacques Chirac in early 2003 that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog the Bible's satanic agents of the Apocalypse." (James A Haught, Free Inquiry August/September 2009 edition)

This isn't a joke folks ! Here's another link (there are more) to the same story:
http://www.alternet.org/politics/140221/bush's_shocking_biblical_prophecy_emerges:_god_wants_to_%22erase%22_mid-east_enemies_%22before_a_new_age_begins%22/

No wonder the French wouldn't join America in the Crusade to Iraq - Chirac must have thought Bush quite crazy ! Don Rumsfeld too.
Apparently DR attached warlike bible verses to his war reports - here's one of them "Put on the full armour of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground."

Thing is we have never had a clear reason for attacking and occupying Iraq, I think we have now in view of this recent "revelation."

Red Biddy

So according to DJPreacher it's not the same Holy Spirit that has led to the split between the Anglican/Episcopalian churches. Satan at work again ?
If God so disapproves of homosexuality how come He created so many GLBT people or two different sex hormones testosterone and estrogen which are both present in every human being male or female ?

Which brings us back to the Adam's nipples, Delores ! Which came first - the chicken or the egg ? Genesis has "creation" all backwards, you know !
Also Delores, your comment about Bill's lovely picture of the mountains behind ghost Ranch was not the product of Noah's flood but more likely earthquake or tectonic plate activity. A world wide flood could only cover the world if it was flat. As we now know it is definitely round it's doubtful Noah's flood would have reached Anerica !

Susan

Wow, Red Biddy! I wonder why so many of us never heard what President Bush said to the French President about his rationale for invading Iraq ...

This reminds me of those hilarious Mr. Deity videos Cole gave us links to recently. I don't have time to find those links right now, but if you google "mr deity" you will find a whole ton of them and they are soooo funny. I know this because after I showed my husband the one of the conversation between President Bush, Mr. Deity and Lucy, he got hooked and found a whole bunch more.

The one with President Bush is a really good tie-in with what Red Biddy has just shared. But if we are ever discussing Christian views on wifely submission, I just saw a video where Mr. Deity and Lucy are discussing the meaning of the world "helpmeet." Lots of great stuff here.

Bill, thanks for reminding us of all the Muslims who are anti-terrorism. Will, I feel sure we can include Asra Nomani and Reza Aslan in this category, and they live in the U.S. Is that local enough for you?

Susan

Red Biddy and Dolores (and anyone else who's interested) have you heard about all the scientific evidence that there was indeed a local flood that covered the entire known world at that time?

It wasn't a flood of the whole earth -- but must have seemed so, based on the knowledge of mankind at that time.

Which brings me back to the subject of getting hung up on Biblical literacy. From a human perspective, the sun rises at one end of the heavens and sets at the other end. And a flood that covers the earth for as far as you're able to travel ... and as far as anyone you've ever known has been able to travel ... is bound to seem like a whole-earth flood.

And to the majority of the population which is sexually-attracted to the opposite sex, same sex attraction can seem "weird" just because it's not something we've personally experienced. Kind of like some people not understanding why others are bookworms, or like eating seaweed (I love seaweed myself!).

We don't all have to like the same things to get along. Why is it so hard to accept that the Bible was written by individuals who were very much influenced by their own limited perspectives about what was right and normal? We don't have to stay so me-centered. It's fine for each of us to prefer whatever we prefer -- but just as it'd be wrong to ignore all the information we now have about the Earth revolving around the sun, so it's wrong to ignore information about differing sexual orientations, etcetera.

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

PreacherDJ. Perhaps it is the Devil on one side. He is a trickster. Perhaps he is on both sides creating this ruckus. Perhaps it’s another JOB bet between God, his side kick, the holy spirit and the devil. Where is Jesus in all this? It is so confusing. I thought your religion was monotheistic?

Such intolerance. The MOB wants to rule. It wants everybody to live by the bible, which has as many interpretations as it does letters. I prefer Alice in Wonderland.

History
Human Stabbed a Neanderthal, Evidence Suggests
http://www.livescience.com/history/090721-neanderthal-murder.html

Culture
Babies Grasp Dogs' Emotions
http://www.livescience.com/culture/090722-babies-understand-dogs.html

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

PreacherDJ>>>>>>>>> I wonder how the same "Holy Spirit" who led the Episcopal Church "in the direction of same-sex blessings" could also lead the vast majority of the worldwide Anglican Church to condemn homosexuality? The answer must obviously be that it is not the same spirit. To determine which is the Holy Spirit and which is a false spirit, it is a matter of comparing to what God has already said on the subject in His Word, that homosexuality is wrong.

PreacherDJ,

May Hannibal Lector clone you a new brain...

What if the Holy Spirit is BS? - have you considered that possibility? And all this is caused by "humans" not the "misreading" of the Holy Spirit.

How about hermophrodites? - is it in the Bible? Is this wrong? - people who are born with both kinds of genatalia? - who are they? Men or women? Surely, god created them? Right?

Do you know at what stage hormones detemine the sex of the child? Do you know that we are all conceived inherently women? And then later when the fetus is actually transformed by proper doze of chemicals at the right stage of development into men? Some don't get enough or get too much, hence the deformities in sex organs and also confusion of children if they are males or females?

Do you know this about human biology? I am sorry to tell you my friend, but your "intelligent designer" surely designed his subject very "unintelligently" and "poorly".

Think... It does your brain and the world a lot of good.

You guys fundies

Will Graham

Susan, I don't know what you are going on about. From what I have heard, you think we are all going to end up in the same place anyway.

So who cares? We are never all going to agree on stuff anyway!

Everyone is saved, so have a ball!

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)