Abortion common ground?: 6-20/21-09
June 20, 2009
What seems to me like a hundred years ago -- back in the late 1970s or early 1980s -- I wrote a column for The Kansas City Star describing my anguish about the failure of people who disagree on abortion to have civil discussions.
This grew out of a conference on abortion I attended. There I found rigidly convinced people -- on both ends of the abortion-position spectrum -- arguing past one another. Nobody was listening.
I can't tell that much has changed in 30 years.
But I am encouraged that some people continue to try to find some common ground on this matter. The latest effort I've learned about is a new Web site called "On Common Ground" found on the RH (for reproductive health) RealityCheck.org site.
Here you will find news and views that amount to a forum for discussing abortion without resorting to murder, such as happened to Dr. George Tiller of Wichita recently.
It would be wildly out of bounds to include in such discussion people such as Tiller's accused killer. But it would not be out of bounds to include people with strongly anti-abortion positions. I haven't read through all the offerings on the new "On Commond Ground" site, but my first impression is that such people aren't well represented.
Still, I would hope that people from all abortion perspectives -- save the ones who advocate turning to violence against those with whom they disagree -- would be welcome to add their voices to the discussions on this new site.
One of the problems with the abortion issue (I believe now in hindsight) is that the U.S. Supreme Court acted in 1973 before anything like a social consensus on the subject had developed. That polarized society and we've been dealing with the painful aftermath of that ever since. What I don't know is whether any social consensus ever would have developed without a court decision. Without such a judicial remedy, of course, it's possible that the old and destructive system of illegal abortions would have continued.
My position is that abortion should be seen as the least evil of a series of evil choices -- and thus must remain legal. But the decision should be left up to the pregnant woman (one would hope in consultation with the father of the baby in question) and that woman's physician. As others have said, that would make abortion legal, safe and rare. I respect people who in good faith hold other positions, as long as they don't want to impose their views on society through violence.
At any rate, surf around on this new site and tell us what you think.
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THE ROLE OF FAITH AMONG IRAN'S PROTESTERS
Steve Waldman of Beliefnet.com asks readers there a pertinent question: Is Islam inspiring the freedom fighters in Iran, and, if so, what about the people who insist (wrongly) that Islam is inherently violent and anti-democratic? I agree with Waldman's implication that Islam (and other faiths) can be used to inspire both freedom and tyranny, depending on who is using the religion for what ends. Will this weekend be remembered as Iran's Tiananmen Square?
* * *
P.S.: In honor of Father's Day this weekend, here's a release from the White House about a national conversation on fatherhood. (AND: For a good Associated Press story about Obama and fatherhood, click here.) So are there examples of fathers in sacred writ that we can hold up as models? Like Adam, one of whose sons killed his brother? Like David, who impregnated the wife of one of his soldiers? Well, OK, not them, maybe. But who? For Some answers from my book-writing colleague, Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn, and other religious leaders in the Kansas City area, read Helen Gray's piece in Saturday's Faith section of The Kansas City Star. AND: For an interesting piece about the importance of fatherhood from an Australian perspective, click here.
Here is some Truth, some common ground when it comes to abortion:
You know you've done something WRONG if your actions result in the creation of an unwanted child.
Posted by: Just Thinking | June 20, 2009 at 12:30 AM
Bill, you are asking for trouble with your examples of the sacred writ and fatherhood.
******YOUR NONSENSICAL BIBLICAL QUOTS ABOUT FATHERHOOD******
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead."
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."
Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it.
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first?
If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both.
God punishes the children for the failings of their great-great grandfathers.
If you mock your father or disobey your mother, the ravens will pick out your eyeballs and the eagles will eat them.
God will slaughter children "for the iniquity of their fathers."
God will cause the fathers to eat their sons and the sons to eat their fathers.
Posted by: IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org | June 20, 2009 at 01:26 AM
Bill, you seem quite concerned with violence.
Lets look at the death toll since Roe v Wade,
Abortion doctors killed: 4
Unborn killed: 45,000,000.
I will concede common ground on abortion when you concede common ground on Holocaust Denial.
Posted by: Will Graham | June 20, 2009 at 03:28 AM
Hey, KCFreeThinkers.org, this sounds like a veiled threat aimed at Bill: "Bill, you are asking for trouble with your examples of the sacred writ and fatherhood." Up to the old games again?
We've seen how time and time again that abortion is a trigger issue for you. It leaves you absolutely livid and crazy. Growing up in Communism would confuse anybody's sensibilities. In China they often FORCE an abortion if you have more than one child--the blood is on the Government's hands. In the former Soviet Union, abortion became a COMMON method of birth control due to Soviet ideology:
"Two influences have worked to keep Russian abortion rates high. First, Soviet ideology hindered the development and spread of effective contraception. ..."
As I mentioned before, you know you've done something WRONG if your actions result in the creation of an unwanted child. But abortion can be forgiven by God. It's not the unforgivable sin. Sin must first be recognized as sin, and the sinner must repent, which means turning away from that sin. There needs to be a real change in heart so that, with God's help and forgiveness, there can be healing and lasting change in behavior. Wanting to turn away from what is WRONG is so critical, and that includes turning away from actions that result in the creation of an unwanted child.
There are legitimate circumstances for abortion, but using it as a sorry substitute for birth control is not one of them. There have been tremendous Scientific advances over the centuries, and we know what causes pregnancy now! And how to prevent it. It's the responsibility of everyone to turn from what will result in the creation of an unwanted child.
Sexual sin is personal, but irresponsibly creating an unwanted child involes another.
Posted by: Just Thinking | June 20, 2009 at 08:59 AM
"You know you've done something WRONG if your actions result in the creation of an unwanted child."
When a Female is raised to submit yourself to your husband, she does not feel she is doing something Wrong, to have Reproductive Sex with her husband.
The Male planets the seed, and should be responsible for the Fruit/Child the seed makes, whether Genetic or Physical Defective Children, or Multi-births, and conjoined births.
Adam and Eve were born Equal Clone Adults, not Children, and were Good Fruit, they started Reproducing Children by Body Birth, Bad Fruit. Why?
Were the Adam and Eve Clone Equal Society, 'Innocent' as to what made Heterosexual Body Birth Evil Fruit, on the Tree of LIFE?
When the Snake/Male Member deceived them, they did begin Evil Fruit on Earth.
Celibacy began, for Monks and Nuns in All Religions. Where did Human Celibacy come from, before Jesus' Celibate Movement?
There is an Asexual Designation for Humans, besides the Heterosexual Designation which makes GLBT Designations.
"My position is that abortion should be seen as the least evil of a series of evil choices -- and thus must remain legal."
Body Birth Humans have Killed Each Other, and All Life and their Eco System ever since, so what is legal in the eyes of God?
The Wages of Body Birth Sin, is Death to a Planet. Body Birth Humans, lost their Virginity 'in the beginning', and have Evolved since the Planetary Flood.
Humans again Reproduced by Body Birth, up to the High Tech Science Fetus and Clone Reproduction, like Adam and Eve Generation.
Eternal Physical Life is for High Tech Purebred Human Male and Female Clones, 'After Birth', on Planets and in Spaceships.
Posted by: Dolores Lear | June 20, 2009 at 09:52 AM
"I agree with Waldman's implication that Islam (and other faiths) can be used to inspire both freedom and tyranny, depending on who is using the religion for what ends."
Freedom of Religion for Christians, was used to come to USA/America. But Tyranny for the Indian, Mexican, and Black Humans resulted. Why?
So what is new, on the Human Species Killing Lifestyle? What was it called when the USA and others went into Iraq? Freedom and Liberty?
Why did the USA spend so much of their Resources, to build the 'Green Zone', with so many Contractors? It is the biggest Embassy we have. Why does the USA build so many Embassies and Military Bases in so many countries?
Does it Depend on Majority Public Opinion, Who is doing the Freedom and Liberty, or the Tyranny? Who are doing the Aggressive Actions? Peace Humans or Killer Humans?
The Evil/Bad Guys, Our Unequal Brothers/Sisters of Life? Or the Good Guys? Who are the Good Guys? The ones with the most Weapons, like the USA?
Who's Opinion is it for Good or Evil Humans? Gods? Does God judge his Fallen Children, the Humans Reproduced by Humans, by their Weapons?
Who is Serving the Peace God of Religion, and Jesus, the Prince of Peace? Christians in most Nations on Earth?
Is this just Human Mouth Worship in temples made by Human Hands, while their Hands are Killing Each Other, and their Planet which is God's Temple? Why are Humans Killing the Temple of God/Life?
Is it Time for Christians to Stand Up, Stand Up, for the Peace Lord God and Jesus, over their Commitment to Government to Kill God's Children and Planet?
Posted by: Dolores Lear | June 20, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Bill, thanks for letting us know about the site, "On Common Ground." I plan to spend some time there -- maybe it will help me work through my own views on abortion.
From last night -- Just Thinking, you still seem to have the idea that I am making claims about BILL'S BELIEFS! I'd already made it pretty clear that I WASN'T putting words into Bill's mouth. He has impressed me as somewhat liberal-leaning, mainly because he seems liberal compared with the brand of conservatism I grew up with (i.e. his views on gay marriage and interfaith dialog). But liberal-leaning doesn't necessarily mean universalist, in case you didn't know.
As far as your wondering how I feel Christianity has been rewritten -- I'd say primarily through someone compiling these books and letters, and giving them the designation of "God's inerrant Word" -- and then this same designation being given to translations, and so on, and so on. To the point where many Christians are taught that the Bible (as translated) is God's FINAL Word on everything -- I guess meaning that He spoke a whole lot to people thousands of years ago, and then stopped. So we just need to refer back to these books and letters to know how to live today.
I love my Bible and learn a lot from it -- but now that I feel free to conclude that certain parts just express the perspectives of those particular writers, and the times and places they were living in, I feel so much freer to hear from God about how to live my own life -- i.e., how to live as a woman of God, how to relate to my husband, and so on. The Bible just doesn't allow for a whole lot of room for women to learn, grow, think, and participate in the human "dialog."
I feel so much better now that I can ascribe Paul's order for the women to keep silent in the churches, to Paul and not to God. And of course I've already shared extensively here, about what I've been learning as a parent: it's been such a relief to learn that it wasn't GOD who said we have to hit and punish our children, to be parenting "God's way."
Posted by: Susan | June 20, 2009 at 11:29 AM
******ANOTHER NON SENSICAL SERIES OF BIBLICAL QUOTES****
GOD IS PROPONENT OF ABORTION/DEADLY ASSAULT/TORCHURE AGAINST PREGNANT WOMEN
God causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
God kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14
Posted by: IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org | June 20, 2009 at 11:56 AM
From yesterday -- Iggy, when adamh quoted Sam Harris where Harris appeared to be justifying killing people who hold certain dangerous beliefs -- you quoted adamh as if HE was the one saying what Harris said -- and then you responded with a list of "killing" verses from the Bible.
First I am wondering: Did you really intend to make it look like adamh was saying what Harris said, or was it unintentional?
Second: Sam Harris is an Atheist. He doesn't believe in the Bible. So quoting Scripture in response to adamh's concern about what Harris said -- that just doesn't explain it at all, since I'm sure Harris doesn't use the Bible to back up his ideas, not believing in it or in God. If you have read Harris's writings and are able to explain this one quote in context, I would be very interested in hearing what you (or other Atheists who are familiar with Harris) have to say about it.
Iggy, of course I'm not "blog monitor" or even trying to be: I support everyone's right to post and say whatever they want. It's just, I feel like you are wasting so much space here, just getting your kicks making fun of anyone who's actually serious about discussing issues. Not that there's no place for humor in serious discussion: it just seems like your whole purpose is making fun of others.
You seem like such a knowledgeable person, it's just frustrating to see you seemingly-ignore opportunities to share more about your Atheist perspecive on issues like freedom of expression -- just because it's more fun to throw out Scriptures about killing and domination (which actually makes it look like you're saying, "See, God condones killing so why do you care if Sam Harris condones it?").
Posted by: Susan | June 20, 2009 at 12:09 PM
Susan, thats an interesting point about "blog monitor". You may nor may not know it, but a little over a year ago Iggy kept threatening people by saying The Police are Watching this Blog, and making statements that he could track their IPs...which Bill leaves exposed...and photograph and "track" them.
You see, he did not understand the Constitution...in his country it would be a big deal to call the Police, but here it is not the case that the believer has to "shut up" and keep their beliefs to themselves.
So I would say no...he is not a very knowledgeable person, just someone with no respect for other who was raised to think that his methods will work. Of course, they destroyed his own country, but what the heck.
Posted by: Will Graham | June 20, 2009 at 01:41 PM
Susan, here is Sam Harris on torture...his own words, nothing out of context, nothing to weasel out of.
And sure, Harris is "just one atheist" but he is one of the Four Horsemen...the "New Atheists", and they have wide influence among atheist groups. In fact, Harris was frequently praised by Iggy himself, and mentioned at the KCFreethought Forum
(By the way, my sympathy on the collapse and death of that forum...it won't be back despite the "temporarliy closed" sign! LOL!)
Posted by: Will Graham | June 20, 2009 at 04:32 PM
I'm not sure if I agree with you Bill, that Roe versus Wade was decided before there was any social consensensus on abortion here. This might be true of the U.S. but other Western countries were tackling this contentious issue long before 1973.
When I was growing up in the U.K. in the 1950's it was well known that Sweden was the country to go to if you needed a quick safe legal abortion. This service of course was for those who could afford it, but at least it was there !
The U.K. passed its first Abortion Bill in 1967. Essentially this law gave doctors rights for decision making not women. A further law in 1990 reduced the time limit for doing abortions to 24 weeks from 28 weeks. Permission is needed from 2 doctors for abortions to be performed under 12 weeks - the best time ! Basically the law says abortions can be done anytime up to the viability of a fetus. With premature baby care being hugely improved this time limit has had to be reduced back to a time when a premature baby simply can't be kept alive by any modern method. In Britain in order to get an abortion a woman has to demonstrate that she needs it for her mental health. This mental health proviso is judged by the doctor she goes to of course but it does leave a lot of loopholes for interpretation of what mental health is !
I don't see the possibility of a "common ground" at all here when there is so much strong feeling about even the sensible use of birth control and sex education in schools.
I agree with you that abortions should be safe, legal and rare and this goal could be achieved if people would stop looking on sex as "sinful" or as in the case of teenagers,taking precautions to prevent pregnancy, is unromantic !
Posted by: Red Biddy | June 20, 2009 at 05:39 PM
I don't agree with you, that the father of an unwanted pregnancy should always be informed. Nor do I think parents should always be asked for their permission. These "permissions" should not be made law because of the frequency of acts of incest.
I wouldn't be mentioning this but I knew a girl once, right here in Kansas City who by age 20 had had 6 children all by her own father ! Her mother was in prison so obviously in her case it was impossible to get "permission" from either parent to have an abortion even if she'd wanted one !
Posted by: Red Biddy | June 20, 2009 at 06:02 PM
The post that Iggy wrote yesterday at 9:15 PM, was about the Noah/Atlantis Society, that was like our Killer Society is today. They had Atom Bombs at Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Lord God/Us in Genesis are High Tech Asexual Humans, that Colonize Planets with Equal Asexual Male and Female Clones, and they do Have Peace and Eternal Physical Life After Birth.
What went wrong with the Clones with Free Will in the Garden of Eden, is not known, but they did start Body Birth and Death on Earth.
But I am positive the Peace Lord God, who Jesus is with, and others that were Celibate Males, went up to Heaven Alive, with the Peace God, not the Killer God of the Old Testament Religion and Myth.
The Killer God perished in the Noah/Atlantis Flood until today.
Susan, Iggy does post all those Bible passages that most people do not like to acknowledge, as their God and Jesus. And they are not our Peace Ancestors and Jesus, but are the High Tech Noah/Atlantis Gods.
With our High Tech, Humans today can challenge all the Writings of Religion and Myth, to find the Truth of High Tech Asexual Purebred Physical Human Life on Planets and in Spaceships.
This is why I love Bill's Blog. He does let all people post even Iggy, since he posts a lot better than he did. And his Bible verses are necessary to Understand about the Human Killer God, what I post about.
The Killer God is not the Peace Human God, Jesus is with. Once we accept this, than what is posted about the Killer God is necessary, with High Tech Science, to accept there Good Peace Humans called God, and an Evil Killer God in all Religion and Myth.
They are not the Same Humans.
Posted by: Dolores Lear | June 20, 2009 at 06:19 PM
I've managed at last to track down the Sam Harris comment he made during his recent debate with Reza Aslan, you were asking about. He was questioning y how it was that Reza Aslan, a sophisticated moderate, was willing to create a faith so elastic as to give shelter to "this" kind of religious literalism.
By "this kind of religious literalism" Harris was talking about the "death cult" view of millions of Moslems.
Azla fought back with his view that out of 11/2 billion Moslems in the world - there couldn't possibly be millions with this view.
Harris then quoted a recent PEW poll in Lebanon, which found 77% of the Moslems there thought suicide bombing was justified !
I'm afraid Aslan lost that one !
In view of JT's attack on you for not believing people go to hell you should know by now that dogmatism is completely immune to criticism !
Just loved JT's claim to mind reading of Bill that: "He doesn't hold wacko views that "nobody will go to Hell." This is a wacko view - wow !
Surely,wishing some people are going spemd Eternity in Hell is the truly wacko view of all wacko views, pleasant though the thought might be in certain instances !
As Mark Twain wrote: Heaven for climate, Hell for company.
Posted by: Red Biddy | June 20, 2009 at 06:53 PM
I looked up the Sam Harris quote which was "Some propositions are so dangerous that it might even be ethical to kill people for believing them."
Sounds awful doesn't it ?
But if someone had managed to bump off Hitler (say) before he had put in to action his "Final Solution" it might have saved a lot of lives ! Harris pointed out in his book that we tried the same thing in Afghanistan and failed. Didn't President Obama say we are going to find Osama bin Laden and kill him !
If you put Harris's comment into perspective it doesn't sound so bad does it ?
Posted by: Red Biddy | June 20, 2009 at 07:09 PM
Bill, Roe v. Wade HAD TO HAPPEN.
The courts HAVE TO STEP IN SOMETIMES TO CHALLENGE THE INJUSTICE OF THE ESTABLISHMENT. This is exactly what happened with abortion then - FREEDOM WAS DENIED TO WOMEN TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO (for Christian crazies it owuld be "sin")
The same way marriage between blacks and whites was challenged in courts and won.
The same way gay marriage is challenged in courts and is now by grace of gawd has prepared fertile grounds for acceptance in other states. Good thing legistlature in 4-5 states (including Iowa of all places!) has accepted gay marriage.
Religion in America (Xianity) tends to have an interesting grasp on reality - it just never frigging dies when it comes to equality of people and theri rights.
Abortion is a settled issue and I view in 10-20 years a nation wide federal abortion laws that will make them universal and same everywhere - federalists and religious crazies will have a field day with it. But it is unavoidable - I can see someone in a state that did not allow abortion after a certain trimester or late term abortion being challenged in courts when someone has severe medical complications to the baby and mother.
When the baby with no skull and mother as a vegetable get paraded enough on TV and tabloids it will have an invariable effect on the poeple - maybe not crazies, they will be up in arms praising Jesus for the gift of life, etc - the zeiteist of the society will slowly change.
I view courts in cases like this as the last remedy - "activist" judges will have to kick ass of the American populace to get them into the "righteous" mode.
Posted by: IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org | June 20, 2009 at 08:25 PM
Iggy displays an astounding ignorance of the American Judicial Systme in his last post.
He forsees in 10-20 years Federal Abortion Laws, in total misunderstanding of the degree to which the states have a degree of independence from the Federal Government...what he is doing is confusing his own upbringing and "education" in the Old Soviet Union and the system in the United States.
He he declares that "activist" judges will have to KICK ASS OF THE AMERICAN POPULACE.
IN YOUR COUNTRY THEY DID THAT IGGY...and its still your country since you are sure not a citizen here, and never intended to become one...but in this country Judges are either appointed by ELECTED officials or are in many casaes ELECTED themselves.
And here in many areas they are, even if appointed, subject to RETENTION elections...in the past decade in the Kansas City Metro Area three judges have been booted out for antics on the bench.
If a judge thinks he is going to KICK ASS OF THE AMERCIAN POPULACE as you put it, he may be on the way out.
Roe v Wade was, we now know, based on flawed science...it is not inevitably fated to be the law of the land; Iggy does not seem to understand that decisions such as Roe can be overturned or Modified.
At one time the DRED SCOTT decision was the law of the land...that a black man was three fifths of a man.
At one time BUCK v BELL was the law of the land...that forced sterilization of "defective" people was justified.
Iggy has stupidly coflated his own failed countries systme with ours.
Posted by: Will Graham | June 21, 2009 at 06:11 AM
It occurred to me that one reason that Iggy does not understand our electoral system, or the distinction between the Federal and State governments, is that he CAN'T VOTE.
Iggy, you need to at least READ the Consitution even if you never plan to take the citizenship test.
You see, although you grew up with it, the idea that ANY official...Judge or not..."WILL HAVE TO KICK ASS OF THE AMERICAN POPULACE" will not be long tolerated by the American population.
Posted by: Will Graham | June 21, 2009 at 06:19 AM
Happy Father's Day.
"So are there examples of fathers in sacred writ that we can hold up as models?"
How about God/Us, the Father of Life on Earth, in our Human Image, in Genesis 1?
God/Us Reproduced the Male Human as an Adult. Then Reproduced the Female Human Adult Clone, from the Male Rib. There were no Fathers, Mothers or Children.
The Clones had Free Will, to stay Purebred, Innocent, Celibate, Virgins.
Why did they 'Fall' to Heterosexual Birth of Children?
Cain Killed Abel, and Generation Human Killing of Each Other began.
Clone Humans did not have Commandments before Original Sin, to Honor their Father and Mother.
Jesus taught Male Celibacy, with 2 New Commandments: Love God, and Love your Brothers/Sisters as Yourself. Jesus is our Example of, No Killing, and Celibate Peace Males. Who is following Jesus today? Monks and Nuns? Who did the Monks and Nuns follow before Jesus, another Man-made Celibate Male God?
On Father's Day 2009, How does this Human Killing Lifestyle, reflect Love of God, Jesus, Other Religious Gods, and Fathers/Mothers?
"... it's been such a relief to learn that it wasn't GOD who said we have to hit and punish our children, to be parenting "God's way."
'God'/Our High Tech Clone Ancestors, do not say to hit and punish Children. They do not have Children. 'God' does say, Thou Shalt Not Kill'.
So what does all the Hitting, Punishing, and Killing, of each other, 'in the name of God' mean?
Religious and Myth Writings of Killer Gods, is not the Peace God that Colonized Earth with Equal Clone Helpmeets.
Is it Time for Humans to Find Out about, Our Peace God and Jesus, before we blow up our Home Planet for Who? God the Father without Body Birth Children?
Posted by: Dolores Lear | June 21, 2009 at 06:20 AM
Dolores, it is no wonder you side with Iggy.
You quote mine, distort, and misrepresent the Bible just like he does.
The difference is that he knows what he is doing...and he knows it simply a dishonest proaganda technique of ridicule designed to force SUBMISSION, and we know he knows it because he gets so angry when he is exposed.
You, on the other hand, seem to not even understand context, history OR science...as you keep talking about a HIGH TECH SCIENCE that DOES NOT EXIST.
No spaceships are coming for you Dolores.
Posted by: Will Graham | June 21, 2009 at 08:32 AM
"You, on the other hand, seem to not even understand context, history OR science...as you keep talking about a HIGH TECH SCIENCE that DOES NOT EXIST.
No spaceships are coming for you Dolores."
I accept Religion and Science explain the re-use of the Elements that make Life on Earth, through Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth.
Iggy posts Bible verses that show the God in Some of the Writings, is not the Peace God in Genesis. I accept this Killer God was the Noah/Atlantis High Tech Society like we are today.
So it is necessary to Translate All Scripture and Myth with a High Tech Peace Human Society Understanding, that do live on Planets/Religious Heaven and travel in Spaceships/Religious Heaven.
Some Humans call Remembering Past Events, as Genetic Memory. I seem have High Tech memory for some of the Past High Tech History, in the Christian Bible and Myth.
This happened to me all of a sudden, in 1971, when I was reading about the Noah Flood in the King James Bible, and understood it was a Planetary Flood.
On a Polar Projection Map, South America turned up, and filled in the Atlantic from the USA to Europe. When joined at the Arctic Ocean, Our Planet and Atlantis were the same Original Land Mass before the Flood.
Bill's Blog Comments Since 2006, have really helped me to accept the Male and Female Clone Information in Genesis, and separate the Peace God from the Killer God in Scripture.
Humans write books and movies about High Tech Spaceships, Space Travel and Space Wars.
I am involved with writing about a High Tech Living Peace Human Society, that Colonized Earth, and is called a supernatural God, in our Image.
Reproducing Peace Purebred Human Male and Female Clones in the Lab, and flying in Spaceships to other Planets, and even escaping a Universe, is Possible with the Lord Gods' Electro-Magnetic Power.
Posted by: Dolores Lear | June 21, 2009 at 11:18 AM
Our High Tech today is a hodgepodge of Spaceships and High Tech. Instead of learning more about High Tech Colonization in the 1950s, our Resources went for Atom and Nuclear Bombs.
What good are they for Eternal Physical Human Life After Birth? Nuclear bombs with our Filth and Pollution Pollution, will cause the Judgement Day Fire, by our Killer High Tech Human Gods today.
Our Peace God Human Ancestors will not cause the Judgment Day Fire predicted in Religion.
High Tech Human Male and Female Clone Humans, like the Human Clones that Colonized Earth in Genesis 1, do have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.
They accept Free Will for Humans. When their Clone Colony, for whatever reason, began Reproducing Humans by Body Birth, our Ancestors did not Force them to go by the Celibate Rules, and let this Lifestyle run it's course to Destroying the Planet.
Our Ancestor's High Tech Equipment, does keep track of the Lifestyle of Body Birth Humans to ruin their Home Planet.
And they do make visits to Earth when necessary to pick up a Virgin Male, like Jesus and others, to train for the New Planet. Revelation says 144,000 Virgin males.
It took 6000 years on Earth, 6 Days Space Travel Time, to Colonize Earth. It is taking Fallen Humans 6000 years to Ruin their Work.
As soon as the Original Colony Fell, they began the Colonization of another Planet.
So in the 6000 years it takes them to Colonize a Planet, a New Planet will be ready when we ruin this one. Life did not Evolve on Earth.
They will return and take a New Colony of Virgin Males to the New Planet, like they brought the Original Male Adam Colony to Earth.
And maybe this Time the Peace Humans will stay Purebred Clones and have Eternal Physical Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships, like our Human Ancestors in our Image.
Posted by: Dolores Lear | June 21, 2009 at 11:19 AM
As I said, Christianity has not been rewritten. The Gospels haven't changed. There was no major 'rewrite' of the manuscripts from which the Bible was compiled, or you'd find vastly divergent versions of those manuscripts.
What you are talking about is differing INTERPRETATION. Not REWRITING. So perhaps you need to change your language so that it is accurate.
Two people can read the same thing and interpret differently. You need others involved, too. Someone's Biblical interpretations often reflect individual desires and will. For example,
* KCFreeThinkers.org is consistently hateful, angry, and vindictive on this blog; it shouldn't be any suprise that their interpretations always swing that way, too. KCFreeThinkers.org resorts to whatever trick necessary to support his hateful point of view including, but limited to, taking things completely out of context.
* Others read the Bible and end up believing that unrestrained sexual freedom and abortion on demand are things that God wants for them. They interpret the Bible to justify bad behavior.
One comes to correct Biblical interpretations through sincerely asking, "What is God's ideal will for my life?" Not, "What can I get away with?" Not, "If it feels good, then I know God would want me to do it." Not, "How can I gain honor for myself?"
Bad motives lead to bad interepretation. Jesus said, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." Jesus went on to explain how you could spot bad motives in action: "He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself." If an abortionist claims God's support for abortion on demand, then God loses honor, but the abortionist gains honor.
Posted by: Just Thinking | June 21, 2009 at 01:23 PM
At the On Common Ground website, it was especially interesting to read Cristina Page's introductory post, where she shared how the last time she saw Dr. George Tiller (the doctor who was murdered), he was encouraging his fellow abortion providers to help women place babies for adoption. He shared how sometimes he had a patient whose pregnancy was too far along for abortion, but who wasn't able to parent, and his family would take these women in, and provide them with a place to live as they finished their pregnancies, and came to terms with the idea of placing their babies for adoption.
One thing about late-term abortion: Now that medical science is getting better and better at helping very premature babies to thrive, it would seem to me that any medically-necessary late-term abortions should be performed near a prenatal ICU. This way in cases where a mother needs to terminate her late-term pregnancy because of her own physical or mental health issues, there might be a good chance for many of these babies to live. At which point the mother could decide whether she wanted to parent her child, or place her child for adoption.
With all the couples out there desparate to adopt -- especially well-to-do professional couples where the women have been busy building their careers and possibly waited a little too long and are no longer fertile when they're ready for a baby -- it seems highly-likely that couples could be found who'd be glad and able to pay off all the medical bills incurred by Baby being in prenatal ICU.
So it seems like a really good idea to encourage the kinds of dialogues that are being encouraged at On Common Ground. I think Ms. Page is right in wondering if Dr. Tiller and reasonable Pro-Life supporters, might have found enough common-ground to discuss these issues. I'm really sad that there was no chance for Dr. Tiller to be part of the dialog at On Common Ground.
Happy Father's Day to all the dads! This must be an especially sad day for Dr. Tiller's widow, and their 4 children and 10 grandchildren.
Posted by: Susan | June 21, 2009 at 02:18 PM