Targeting Christian bucks: 6-26-09
Remembering Joan of Arc: 6-29-09

A lesson in Mormon history: 6-27/28-09

Because I think it helps Americans to understand their religion's history -- and, more broadly -- the history of religion in the United States, this weekend I want to take note of the murder on June 27, 1844, of Joseph Smith (depicted here), founder of the Mormon church, known officially as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

JosephSmith

On that date 165 years ago, Smith and his brother Hyrum were dragged from jail by what is called an angry mob (is there any other kind of mob?) in Carthage, Ill., and shot. The Smiths had been arrested by non-Mormons on charges of immorality. What was the immorality? Smith said polygamy for Mormons was approved by God.

I won't go into lots of details about Smith's life and death here, but I can suggest a book I've read a lot about but haven't yet read -- Joseph Smith, Rough Rolling Stone, by Richard Lyman Bushman.

Rather, I want to suggest you think about mob psychology and rigid religious certitude. Clearly Smith made other believe that he felt certain God had called him to, as he would have said, restore the true church of Christ to earth. At the same time, members of the mob that hauled him out of jail and did him in no doubt felt certain that they were doing the Lord's work in ridding the planet of a heretic.

How are we to judge such things? In what reliable ways can we do what the New Testament says and "test the spirits" to see whether they are of God? How can we remain true to our religious convictions while at the same time reserving some space for the reality that we are finite human beings with finite understandings and cannot possibly know the full mind of God?

I wish I had exhaustive and convincing answers for all such questions. My own approach is to try my inadequte best to remember this admonition from the old Hebrew prophet Micah: "What does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God?" And to try to couple that with what Jesus, harkening back to Leviticus, called the two great commandments, to love God and to love neighbor. Somehow it seems to me that walking humbly and loving God and neighbor would prevent one from thinking he is deputized by God to pull a man out of jail and shoot him.

* * *

VENTURA, Calif. -- Life has been a little crazy for Steve Lopez (pictured here), the Los Angeles Times columnist whose book The Soloist has become a major motion picture.

Lopez 083

He's had tons of speaking engagements and other responsibilities, including staying in touch with Nathaniel Ayers, the homeless musician about whom he first wrote a column and who became the subject of the book and movie. The last time I saw Steve was in 2004 when he won our National Society of Newspaper Columnists' lifetime achievement award -- based on his work before the book and movie. He returned to the NSNC's conference here yesterday and spoke to us about what he's learned since then and about the role of columnists in the future.

And when he said about us columnists, "All that we've got going for us are stories," I thought about the reality that, in one important sense, that's all religions have going for them. That is, religions tell stories -- profoundly important stories. Read the Hebrew Scriptures, for instance, and you'll see a pattern of repeated stories of the exodus -- all as a way of telliing people who God is. Read the New Testament and you'll find story after story -- essentially with the same message, which is that God is our rescuer, our redeemer, the one who leads us out of our wildernesses.

Steve urged us columnists to "look for real stories. It's the only thing that's going to save us." He didn't mean that in a theological sense but, rather, in the sense of the work of columnists as they struggle the stay alive in a newspaper industry that's undergoing rapid and disconcerting change.

For just a brief taste of Steve's words to us, click on this link:

Download Lopez

Later in the day, W. Bruce Cameron, originally from the Kansas City area and author of Eight Simple Rules for Marrying My Daughter, told us that "I've just always believed in my ability to write a story."

So stories engage us. They find our hearts and teach us how our hearts are connected to the hearts of others. And in many ways, that's the way religions use stories. It was good to be reminded of that yesterday.

* * *

NOTE: Until Tuesday, June 30, my Internet access may be limited and/or sporadic, so a long time may go by before I can publish any comments you leave here. Thanks for your patience. I'll eventually get to them. Bill.

Comments

Will Graham

"Thou shalt not follow a mob to do evil". (Exodus 23:2 NLT)

Just Thinking

Some believe that they are deputized to use violence or bullying against those whose ideas they find objectionable. Some use guns or knives to bully, threaten and intimidate. Others resort to using their cars as weapons to run down those whom they oppose. The court records are full of self-righteous people, some religious and some not, who have claimed some fundamental right to harm others or to avenge perceived wrong.

People you'd never suspect abuse others in criminal ways. Some are religious and some are atheists.
MISSOURI COURTS
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/
KANSAS COURTS
http://www.jococourts.org/

As for polygamy, I think it would be an interesting experiment to ask people, "What would be a sure way for a spouse to damage a relationship?" I wonder how often sexual infidelity would top the list. I think there's a natural reason that most people cannot be involved in a healthy, non-monogamous relationship. It's not just about rules of some kind. It goes much deeper. Your spouse sharing their deepest intimacy is difficult.

God wants the first and foremost position in each person's life. There is a monogamous intimacy reserved for God only. "Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Divided devotion doesn't work well with God. "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

God compares chasing after idols to adultery, no doubt because of the intimacy that is violated. In Judges 8:27, for example, "Gideon made the gold into an ephod, which he placed in Ophrah, his town. All Israel prostituted themselves by worshiping it there, and it became a snare to Gideon and his family."

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

¬¬¬¬¬¬Perhaps the message from god is not from god, but the devil. He’s such a trickster. How does one know. Iggy and I had a X tell us her husband had a proven formula to know if it is truly a message from god. When we began discussing this with her husband over email – he wouldn’t meet with us – it went nowhere just as we expected. Bottom line, you had to open you heart to jesus/god to know the answer. Well, if I do that I will bleed to death. He was so silly. A dog chasing his tale/tail. Conversation after that dried up. We left him to his make believe and went on.

Biblical monotheism has gone through its own evolution. In the earliest stages Hebrew monotheism (probably borrowed from mid 14th century Egyptian authoritarian monotheism under the pharaoh Akhenaten) began pushing the one almighty god with lots of helpers. Jesus, holy spirit, angels, saints, cherubs - sort a like many gods but all crammed into one story. You know the trinity, the three wise guys, Moe, Curly and Larry. Seems similar to me and somewhat logical. In the beginning X church would incorporate polytheistic rituals and customs to entice them over to their side and if it was tough, then just threaten torture. This definitely seemed to work.

At least today you have to buy into religion and not be killed if you don’t believe in their belief. Well, at least most of the time.

I am not recovering from religion. T h a t h a p p e n e d a l o n g t i m e a g o. Some people on this sight I believe need some kind of therapy. Maybe the kind that could help them with their inability to write about what they read instead of twisting statements and embellishing. I a m t h e F a c i l i t a t o r for the Johnson County group Recovering from Religion. Get it? I help them, along with others assistance, to deal with leaving religion. H e l l o….anybody in there?....

Peace For the Sake of Goodness

Dolores Lear

Bill:
("Joseph Smith) - he felt certain God had called him to, as he would have said, restore the true church of Christ to earth."

Me:
Earth is like a Spaceship, all Resources are Aboard. How Many Religions, Competition, Different Money Based Lifestyles, and Inequality, exist in a Man-Made Spaceship?

On the International Space Station, their number of Passengers is limited. While Aboard, all are Equal, and All 'things' are Shared Equally, like Christ/Jesus taught.

All are trained for their job, and all share the food, water, and work, for their time Aboard.

This should be the Equal Way, Humans Live on Spaceship Planet Earth. Spaceship Earth's Resources, and Eco System need Caretaker Astronauts.

How many Human Astronauts should Earth have Aboard, at One Time for Caretaking of the Planet, and a successful voyage?

In 1900, Earth had 1 Billion Passengers, with starving and homeless Humans. 100 years later, Earth has almost 7 Billion Passengers, with many starving and homeless Humans.

What is the Purpose of Life on Spaceship Earth? Overload of Passengers with Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth, wars and rumors of war?

Why not use our High Tech Science Reproduction, to stop the runaway Human Reproduction, and start Sharing Equally, the Resources and Work for All?

Why not have a Successful Peace Voyage, in our Solar System? What happened to make the Human Killer Astronauts, that are in Charge of Life on Spaceship Earth?

Why are the Human Astronauts on Spaceship Earth, destroying their Spaceship, with Pollution of All Kinds, with nuclear bombs on land and sea, and Destroying their Eco System?

Should the Male Astronauts follow Christ/Jesus, and be Celibate Males and Share Equally?

What is the Story of the Purpose of Life, on our International Space Station? Life?

What is the Story of the Purpose of God's 'Kingdom of Life, on Spaceship Earth'? Death?

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Do little research on mob psychosis. See how the mind of the lynch mob works. That is what a lot of Xs want: mob rules. Destroy civil liberties! This is a very interesting subject, Bill.

I think Steve Lopez is right. Stick with the real stories. The good stuff in the bible, like the golden rule, has been around a lot longer than the jesus story. There is nothing new in the bible except perhaps some different names. I am not sure why people don’t realize this.

Wait a minute, here is a newsflash! Perhaps the devil counterfeited in advance because he knew the day would come when all this would be in question.

I see a deistic Xianity in the near future too Iggy.

The only church budget I have seen showed 3.5% went to charity out of a 1.25 million dollar annual take in….Tax free for a god social club. ‘Neon sign’ jesus clubs used to be downtown on street corners, preachers bellowing fire and brimstone and taking in change. I would think none of that went for charity. Unless you consider wine and whiskey for the preacher, charity. I knew some of them. It would be interesting to see what percentage the mega churches give to charity.

That’s an idea, Bill. With your connections perhaps you can shed some light on this subject of what percentage of church donations go to charity. Your topic of few days ago on church attendance was very good. Maybe it can be broke down into similar categories. This can make an interesting topic when you get back. Something to think about.

WHY DID GOD MAKE HUMANKIIND?

Was he bored? What does that mean to a god? I mean, he has always been, so maybe he wanted to create something and make them think like him, but not. You want a dog chasing his tale then pay attention to god instead of life. Act silly and want everybody to think like you. That is messed up.

Peace For the sake of Goodness Cole

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Bill wrote: "Somehow it seems to me that walking humbly and loving God and neighbor would prevent one from thinking he is deputized by God to pull a man out of jail and shoot him."

LOL, well said, although maybe the key is "loving...neighbor" since some people seem have a warped definition of loving God. I always thought it strange that people described God as "father" and then said "God is on our side" in war or even in sports or encouraged inter-religious hostility. It seems to me that a good parent wouldn't take sides and shouldn't be expected to. It should also follow from that that any religious/theological notion that is generally harmful to "the children" (us) should automatically be ruled out as wrong. But "should" and "is" are two different things.

By the way, Bill, thanks for the link to the Interfaith conference this weekend. I'm going on a day pass today on behalf of the Greater Kansas City Chapter of Americans United. The schedule says faiths represented today include Sikh (monotheists from India who follow 10 gurus), Vedanta (also originating in India, the belief that we're all divine) and Pagan.

Dave Miller

Bill, I like your words from Micah and from Jesus. Good to remember.

I also try to keep Paul's words in mind when considering "the Truth." "Now we see through a glass darkly..." (Or "in a mirror, dimly." Same idea.)

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

POLYGAMY IS SANCTIONED IN THE BIBLE - see quotes from the Bible below.

No wonder, some crazy Xian like Smith could find support of polygamy in the god's word - in SHORT - HE WAS SPEAKING FOR GOD.

Morality is OF COURSE A-Changing, always, what was good 2,000-5,000 years ago in the desert land of a space alein's son named Jesus today is such a distant and silly thing for many of us to accept.

Religous crazies find the morality NOT changing of the ABSOLUTE not changing - it is the "sins", engrams, thetans, demons, free will/bad will/sinful nature/evil people who see the world in a differnt sense.

What a wonderful cop out...

With this I present to you NONSENSICAL BIBLICAL QUOTES.

Genesis 25:6
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had....

Genesis 26:34
Esau ... took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite.

Genesis 31:17
Then Jacob rose up, and set ... his wives upon camels.

Exodus 21:10
If he take him another wife....

Deuteronomy 21:15
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated....

Judges 8:30
And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.

1 Samuel 1:1-2
Elkanah ... had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah.

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Thus saith the LORD God of Israel ... I gave thee ... thy master's wives....

1 Kings 11:2-3
Solomon ... had seven hundred wives ... and three hundred concubines.

1 Chronicles 4:5
And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah.

2 Chronicles 11:21
Rehoboam ... took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines.

2 Chronicles 13:21
But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives....

2 Chronicles 24:3
Jehoiada took for him two wives....

Dolores Lear

J.T.:
"God wants the first and foremost position in each person's life. There is a monogamous intimacy reserved for God only. - The court records are full of self-righteous people, some religious and some not, who have claimed some fundamental right to harm others or to avenge perceived wrong."

Me:
Funk & Wagnalls Standard Family Dictionary.
'Monogamous: Having only one spouse.
"Monogenism: The doctrine that the whole human race is of one blood or species."
Monogenous: Asexual.

How can any Human, born of Heterosexual Body Birth have only One Master? Father, Mother, Religious Gods, Mates, Family, Friends, Governments, Money, Flesh Lusts, Killing, War, etc. come first.

The Lord God/Us, in Genesis Reproduced Humans 'in the beginning'. They made the Female from the Male Rib, 'super'naturally, as Asexual Clone Helpmeets. They were Equal Born, and neither was Master.

Their Master was the Lord God. Allegiance was to God/Us, the Human Clone Fathers/Mothers of Life on Earth.

How can any Human, born of Heterosexual Body Birth, have only One Master? Body Birth Males and Females, began many Masters: Father, Mother, Mates, Family, Religion, Government, Friends, Money, Flesh Lusts, etc., get in the Way of Obedience to God, that 'said' Thou Shalt Not Kill'.

Reproducing Body Birth Defective Children, began Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth.

Obedience, and Serving more than One Master, was divided among all the different Lifestyles, set up by Unequal Human Birth Families, and Environments.

We have the High Tech Science today, to Return to Reproducing Purebred Human Clones in the Lab, like the Lord God/Us did in Genesis.

Why Not again Reproduce Equal High Tech Human Clones, with One Master, GOD/LIFE?

Instead of Many Masters: God/Us our High Tech Clone Human Ancestors in Genesis, Competition, Money, and all LIFE Killing Elements on Earth?

adam harrison

JT, thanks for the tip. I did not realize what had happened. Wow!

As to Polygamy, from the atheist point of view, why not? Gay marriage? No problem.

So why not several wives? And why is it always wives? Why not several husbands? Hahahahaha!!!

Seriously, we already have serial marriage in our glorious secular society...marriage, no fault cheap divorce at the legal clinic, marriage, no fault cheap divorce, marriage, no fault cheap divorce...ad nauseaum.

Too many kids? Just abort em.

Dolores Lear

The rework of my 10:51 AM Post.

J.T.:
"God wants the first and foremost position in each person's life. There is a monogamous intimacy reserved for God only. - The court records are full of self-righteous people, some religious and some not, who have claimed some fundamental right to harm others or to avenge perceived wrong."

Me:
Funk & Wagnalls Standard Family Dictionary.
'Monogamous: Having only one spouse.
"Monogenism: The doctrine that the whole human race is of one blood or species."
Monogenous: Asexual.

How can any Human, born of Heterosexual Body Birth have only One Master? The Lord God/Us, in Genesis, Reproduced Human Clones 'in the beginning'.

They made the Female from the Male Rib, 'super'naturally, as Asexual Clone Helpmeets. They were Equal Born, and neither was Master.

Their Master was the Lord God. Allegiance was to God/Us, the Human Clone Fathers/Mothers of Life on Earth, in our Image.

Humans, born of Heterosexual Body Birth, have many Masters: Father, Mother, Mates, Family, Religion, Government, Friends, Money, Flesh Lusts, etc.

These Masters get in the Way of Obedience to God/Us, that 'said' Thou Shalt Not Kill'.

Reproducing Body Birth Defective Children, began Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth.

Obedience, and Serving more than One Master, was divided among all the different Lifestyles, set up by Unequal Human Birth Families, and Environments.

We have the High Tech Science today, to Return to Reproducing Purebred Human Clones in the Lab, like the Lord God/Us did in Genesis.

Why Not Humans again Reproduce, Equal High Tech Human Clones, with One Master, GOD/LIFE?

http://www.bing.com/search?FORM=SOLTDF&q=Bride+of+Christ&src=IE-SearchBox

To be the 'Bride' of Christ, Male and Female Body Birth Humans need to be Celibate/Virgins like Jesus, and the Monks and Nums of Religions.

Red Biddy

I think there is something to be said in support of polygamy, particularly those primitive patriarchal societies (like Afghanistan) which forbid women an education or the ability to earn a living. It's the responsibility of the men to take care of as many women as possible. If they refuse to allow women the means to survive on their own then it's up to them to provide for them. It's been a long time rule of monotheist religions to take care of widows and orphans - what better way than to marry them.

Although the Prophet Mohammad preached monogamy he took eleven wives himself, purely out of altruistic motives which were to take care of them. Some of them were elderly widows and one of them was an orphaned child of 9 - who became his favorite wife, Aisha, when she grew up. He has been given a bad rap for this and called out for being a dirty old man but I don't think this was the case.

The original Islamic rules regarding multiple wives were really very humane. A man had to promise to use them all fairly - no favorites (!) - and he had to demonstrate that he had the financial capability of taking care of more than one wife.

Of course those countries that do have educated working women are by far more prosperous than those that don't. President Obama pointed this obvious fact out in his recent speech in Cairo.

One of the reasons Joseph Smith got killed was that he had been "marrying" women who were already married to other men, even men who were already Mormons !

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Women taking multiple husbands has been a socioeconomic and anthropological phenomenon and still happens around the world. It is known as "polyandry" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry

The Hebrew scriptures document approximately forty polygamists. Notable examples include Abraham, who bore for himself a child through his wife's maidservant; Jacob, who had fallen in love with Rachel, but was tricked into marrying her sister, Leah; David, who inherited his wives from Saul; and perhaps most famously, Solomon, who was led astray by his wives.

The Torah, Judaism's central text, includes a few specific regulations on the practice of polygamy, such as Exodus 21:10, which states that multiple marriages are not to diminish the status of the first wife (specifically, her right to food, clothing and conjugal relations). Deuteronomy 21:15–17, states that a man must award the inheritance due to a first-born son to the son who was actually born first, even if he hates that son's mother and likes another wife more;[20] and Deuteronomy 17:17 states that the king shall not have too many wives.[21] The king's behavior is condemned by Prophet Samuel in 1Samuel 8. Exodus 21:10 also speaks of Jewish concubines. Israeli lexicographer Vadim Cherny argues that the Torah carefully distinguishes concubines and "sub-standard" wives with prefix "to", lit. "took to wives."[22]

The monogamy of the Roman Empire was the cause of two explanatory notes in the writings of Josephus describing how the polygamous marriages of Herod were permitted under Jewish custom.[23]

Red Biddy

I want to direct attention to an item reported by Tiffany Stanley, in the Faith Section of the Star to-day titled "Does God answer prayers for Harm".

It concerned a certain Reverend Wiley Drake (former second vice-president of the Southern Baptist Convention, no less) who has prayed not once but three times apparently for the death of President Barack Obama.

"Yes, he really does want God to smite Obama. No, it's not a partisan prayer. Yes, its in the Bible, he says and no, he wasn't kidding. He's deadly serious."

He said he's merely practicing the age old "imprecatory prayer" - a theological term for praying that bad things happen to bad people.

He doesn't like Rick Warren either -The Purpose Driven Life guy and was really mad at Barack Obama for inviting him to do the Invocation at the inauguration.

I realise that Reverend Drake is probably not playing with a full deck, but in view of Bill's plea for "walking humbly and loving God" and loving one's neighbor (or at least trying too !) - I thought this news item worth a mention.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Biddy, as I was reading your comments about Wiley Drake and his prayer for harm to Obama I could not help but think about "voodoo."

Imagine my suprise that "voodoo" was mentioned in the article. On top of that a respected and world renown Jewish theologian says that the "harm prayer" is more of a psychological counceling session - kind of a "couch session".

So, this is getting mroe and more interesting by the day - looks like even Jews are talking about the Bible/Torah as a "Harry Potter" look alike.

I wonder, when the game of quittage is going to be played with the brains of the crazies?

So, if prayers can work for the worse for bad people, then they can also work for the better for bad people and good things for good people?

However, if IT CANNOT BE DEMONSTRATED THAT IT WORKS - what does it mean?

Religous crazies CANNOT DENY THAT SCIENTIFICALLY PRAYER DOESN'T WORK in either direction.

So, why read the mind of god?

Xians, are you a little bit old to have an imaginary friend?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

This subject of "harm prayers" or conversly "prayers for good" made me wonder what can humans do to overcome the irrationality/fear of uncertainty - ULTIMATELY FEAR OF DEATH that are deeply entrenched in their brains.

While "basic instincts" of hunger, sexual drive, self preservation, fear, etc. will never be eliminated or could be controlled/suppressed/modified over the millions of years of evolution, I believe the basic necessities of "rational world" will dictate we will ahve to do this consciously sooner or later.

We are on the endless persuit of "change", "modification", "evolutionary psychology and phisiology", as well as biology. So, the seamless and virtually static/not noticable process of change in the world is easy to mix up with "pattersn of order" by the space alien Yahwheh.

The sooner we as humans understand it, the better off we will be. It is remarkeable to me that there is such a plethora of opinions within the Xian community about the gospels, it is interesting to see that there are "crazies" and "nromal" Christians who view the scriptures as more of a guiding lighthouse that the fricking icebreaker in the land of OZ.

The fact that even ex Mormons I know (a couple) can recover from their cult/religion and watching other more extreme groups (e.g. LDS polygamists and former David Koresh followers) can get out of the gripping control is a pretty good indication that when given a choice/free will/ability to sin/chalelnge space alein Yahwheh/be evil (whatever the crazies want to call it) humans will always in the long run will chose the tree of knowledge and not some imaginary space alien.

So, with this, I present to you "The Baloney Detection Kit."

With a sea of information coming at us from all directions, how do we sift out the misinformation and bogus claims, and get to the truth? Michael Shermer of Skeptic Magazine lays out a "Baloney Detection Kit," ten questions we should ask when encountering a claim.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,3986,RDF-TV---The-Baloney-Detection-Kit,Michael-Shermer-The-Richard-Dawkins-Foundation-Josh-Timonen

Will Graham

Iggy...a/k/a KCFreethinker, say.
IF IT CANNOT BE DEMONSTRATED THAT IT WORKS...what does it mean?

I ask the same thing about inanimate matter producing intelligence!

IF IT CANNOT BE DEMONSTRATED THAT IT WORKS...what does it mean?

Atheist fanatics CANNOT DENY THAT SCIENTIFICALLY INANIMATE MATTER DOES NOT PRODUCE LIFE.

Atheists, aren't you a little old to keep playing "lets pretend" that your BIRD BRAINS view of history is correct?

Will Graham

JUST THINKING, I finally caught on to your tip yesterday morning. It looks like things are more serious than I thought.

By the way, if you are traveling for the Fourth Weekend, always keep an eye out for Careless Drivers! LOL!

Dolores Lear

Bill:
"How can we remain true to our religious convictions while at the same time reserving some space for the reality that we are finite human beings with finite understandings and cannot possibly know the full mind of God?"

Me:
What is the full mind of God? When did God come into a Being on Earth? Was God a Spirit 'Being', or a Higher 'Being'?

In the Christian Bible in Genesis, God/Us did Create Life on Earth with the 6 Steps/Days. High Tech Humans today, would follow these to Colonize a Planet.

God/Us Humans did Create the Female from the Male Rib. Today High Tech Humans call this Cloning.

The Way to remain true to the Peace God in Genesis, is to translate All Scripture and Myth with High Tech Science, to find the True Peace Humans, in our Human Image, that Colonized Earth.

And, also to translate the Noah/Atlantis Killer Humans, also called God, to understand all the Different Mixtures of Religious Convictions, and Translations today.

God/Us did Reproduce the Male and Female in their Human Image, recorded as Supernatural, by Humans without High Tech.

But today's Supernatural High Tech reflects the High Tech Supernatural Gods of Religion and Myth.

Creating Life on a Planet, Reproducing Humans supernaturally in the lab, flying up in the air in fiery chariots and sitting on thrones up in the air, are all Natural Actions of Humans today.

These were the Natural Actions, of our Peace High Tech Ancestor Male and Female Clones from Space, and the Killer Noah/Atlantis Society, recorded in Religion and Myth, and our High Tech Society today.

For our High Tech Society today, we need a High Tech Translation of Religion and Myth, to explain All our Religious Convictions.

Just Thinking

**** ATHEIST LOOOOONEEEEY ALERT FOR KcFreeThinkers.org ****

>>>>POLYGAMY IS SANCTIONED IN THE BIBLE - see quotes from the Bible below.<<<<<

Just because you read in the Bible about things that people did, that does NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that God condones the behavior!!!!!!!

No wonder why you have rejected the Truth of the Bible: you can't understand what you read. There is an automatic knee-jerk reaction to support whatever feeble-minded thought you have at that moment. Short-attention-span theater is for you.
---------------------------------
Another meeting of the atheists:

LEADER: Does everyone still disbelieve in God?

MEMBERS: Yes, we do. Or don't. No, wait, DO disbelieve ....

LEADER: Is there any new business of hating Christians?

MEMBERS: mmmmm . .... ..mmmmm ... the new crucifixes and torches are ready!

LEADER: What do we stand FOR ?

MEMBERS: Nothing ... NOTHING ... NOTHING!!!! Are we going to be serving shiksa again after the meeting?

LEADER: Meeting adjourned! Remember ... go practice.

Susan

Bill, you ask a powerful question here: "How can we remain true to our religious convictions while at the same time reserving some space for the reality that we are finite human beings with finite understandings and cannot possibly know the full mind of God?"

And your answer -- gleaned from both Hebrew and Christian Bibles: to walk humbly and love God and neighbor -- is right on. I also think part of the answer lies in what Steve Lopez said about looking for real stories.

And I would add that those real stories don't come solely from our own societies and faith traditions. My husband recently got hold of all of the old Kung Fu TV shows which he loved back in the 1970's. Watching them inspired him to find a place where we can read Tao Te Ching (translated into English) online for free.

It's been exciting to me to start reading this, and to start learning about the human story from another perspective.

http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

About Mormon polygamy: wasn't it instituted to compensate for the loss of males suffered by Joseph Smith's community following the Spanish-American war? Oh, and I did meet one polyandrous woman online. She said she wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, but this was difficult on one man's income. So she found two men who were able to do the job together.

This kind of reminds me of the old Jerry Seinfeld episode where his girlfriend has such high expectations, his friend decides to help him with all the organizational stuff. They decide that between the two of them, they can do the job of one normal man, LOL. Polygamy/polyandry wouldn't suit me or my husband, but I guess it suits some.

Susan

Thinking about how we are all finite human beings with finite understandings, reminds me of what Just Thinking says -- that truth is rigid and unchanging, and truth is.

I also believe in absolute/universal truth: I just think that truth is way bigger than me and my puny life and my puny understanding. So, while I agree with Just Thinking that truth IS, I don't feel that being rigid and unchanging myself is going to get me closer to understanding truth in all its fullness. Being rigid and unchanging myself, is a whole lot more likely to close me off to truth in all its fullness, and make me live a limited life.

I'm not assuming that J.T. is truly advocating being rigid and unchanging -- but I will say that this is how it comes across to me, since he's accused me of trying to rewrite Christianity, when really I'm trying to gain an ever-more-accurate understanding of Who God Is and why Jesus needed to die, as well as of other things.

By the way, there is more than one theory about the Atonement. Not everyone believes that it was all about God being so angered and reulsed by our sinfulness, that He couldn't touch us with a 10-foot pole until our sins were covered by the blood of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Susan,

I appreciate your "defending" ;o) me as a Christian against the Crhistian crazies on this blog :o) - shows the crazies that there are other people out there that they think are "crazy" - you.

The way the "delusional" mind of crazies like Just Thinking and adamh/Will Graham works when it comes to ANYONE who disagrees with him is like this...

"Barak Obama wants to provide health care for Osama Bin Laden!" - yes, he wants to cover Osama Bin Laden and also all the aliens in other galaxies because he wants to offer universal coverage.

"Barak Obama supports tax cuts for pedophiles" - of course he does! Because tehre will be a certain % of phedophiles among 95% of people who will get tax cut.

These are quotes from "Saturday Night Live" I Tivo'd last night (first 4 minutes when "John McCain" was recording ads for his Presidential campaign).

Piggy Diabolical

Dolores Lear

Susan:
"Thinking about how we are all finite human beings with finite understandings, reminds me of what Just Thinking says -- that truth is rigid and unchanging, and truth is."

Me:
Natural Humans see through a glass darkly, as they do not Know High Tech Science.

But today, with our High Tech we are beginning to see many miracles, written about in the Past.

Spaceship Living above the Planet, Space travel, and making a Human fetus in the lab and cloning animals, is using infinite elements to make finite elements.

The Wonders of GODs Universes has been unfolding the past 100 years. And Humans on Earth are not the First to experience this.

Our Religious Writings and Myths are full of these wonders, that were on Earth at the Colonization, and during the Noah/Atlantis Society that were destroyed in a Planetary Flood.

Now Humans are again up to the Unbalanced High Tech of the Noah/Atlantis Society, and instead of using High Tech for Good, again Humans are using it for Evil Pollution and Nuclear Bombs.

This is the last time on Earth for Humans to have High Tech Science. We have misused our High Tech like the Noah/Atlantis Society.

We have set up the Last Days Planetary Judgemet Day Fire, and then Earth will be void of Life and have an Environment like Mars.

At least we have High Tech photos of Mars, and know it does not have an atmosphere necessary for Life as we Know it.

If the Supernatural Writings were not available, then I could accept Life Evolved on Earth, but not with Genesis, and Atlantis Myth.

Natural Humans since the Planetary Flood, that Evolved up to today's High Tech, could not write this High Tech Science Knowledge in our Past, only keep copying it.

Just Thinking

Susan, you talk about your journey as though it is absolutely, unequivocably leading you closer to the Truth when you describe it as, "ever-more-accurate understanding of Who God Is".

There's another possibility, Susan, for your journey that is not grounded in theology, in tradition, or in the Word of God. Perhaps, Susan, you're just plain WRONG! I know that you're unwilling to admit that such a possibility could be true, but it could. Your journey is based on little more than what "seems" right to you and what "feels" right to you. The Bible clearly tells us that that there is way that feels right to someone which leads to death.

You're not going to dream up who God Is, Susan. Truth is much deeper than what you're able to concoct. Real, deep Truth must be revealed. Where are the reliable witnesses, Susan? The thoughts in your mind concocting truth, or the words of a man who lived the only sinless life, who died, and who rose again?

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