A lesson in Mormon history: 6-27/28-09
A model for all professions: 6-30-09

Remembering Joan of Arc: 6-29-09

On one of the several (but who's counting?) bookshelves in my house, I have a set called "The Complete Novels of Mark Twain."


Not long ago I was looking at them and could not remember ever reading one called Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc. So I've been enjoying it and have been struck by how well Twain seemed to understand the thorough way in which religion, meaning Christianity, simply permeated 15th Century Europe.

There was then almost no thought of a sacred versus secular division. The church -- meaning the Roman Catholic Church in France and England -- ruled the roost, setting the tone for all of life. And although by then there were pre-Reformation stirrings aimed at fixing what had some believed had run amok in the church, there was no serious question that people's lives were -- and should be -- shaped by the church, its teachings and its clergy.

Just to remind people who may have forgotten: Joan of Arc (depicted here) was a teenage French heroine who, at the urging of voices she believed came from God, fought to remove the English from ruling France toward the end of the 100 Years War. Eventually, after she led some surprising military successes, she was captured, charged with witchcraft and heresy (again, the dominating culture of the church) and burned at the stake in 1431. In the early 20th Century the church declared her to be a saint.

Despite the title of Twain's book, Joan herself is not the purported author of these "recollections." Rather, they come from one of her childhood friends and military aides, but Twain draws heavily on the official court records and other histories.

Here are a few short passages that show what I mean by the omnipresence of the church then and especially in Joan's life:

* At her trial, "It being Lent, there might be a chance to catch her neglectring some detail of her religious duties. I could have told him (the prosecutor) he would fail there. Why, religion was her life!"

* ". . .we all know that the air is full of devils and angels that are visible to traffickers in magic on the one hand and to the stainlessly holy on the other; but what many and perhaps most did doubt was, that Joan's visions, Voices, and miracles came from God. It was hoped that in time they could be proven to have been of satanic origin." (Notice that there were only two choices for the source of the visions.)

* (After Joan has just told the court that her Voices "promised to lead me to Paradise.") "If faces do really betray what is passing in men's minds, a fear came upon many in that house, at this time, that maybe, after all, a chosen servant and herald of God was here being hunted to her death."

Again, what's fascinating to me is to compare and contrast then in France and now in America in terms of the way society was simply then marinated in a religious culture and now is much, much less so.

* * *

NOTE: Until Tuesday, June 30, my Internet access may be limited and/or sporadic, so a long time may go by before I can publish any comments you leave here. Thanks for your patience. I'll eventually get to them. Bill.


Will Graham

Bill, using Mark Twain as a source for drawing conclusions about religion is as misleading as using Dan Browns books for the same purpose. Twain was strongly anti Christian, and had his own agenda...he was writing a NOVEL, not history.

The FACTS are that Joan of ARC was what we would call a Freedom Fighter (The Free French used her symbol in the resistance against the Nazi occupation) and when she was no longer politically useful she was executed after a rigged trial.

To draw the conclusions you do about religion and comparing it to our oh so superior secular society (which has used science to refine killing in mass to a degree unprecedented in human history) is highly inaccurate.

Look, Bill, we get it! You don't like Catholics.

How about standing up to the atheists who pollute your board with the most vicious insults? How about some commentary on that?

Will Graham

Oh, COLE MORGAN! ARE you there, sport?

I find it fascinating that you a FACILITATOR for the "Recovering From Relgion Group."

Are your qualifications that you have No Counseling education, or jus that you have hated religon since you were a kid?

And do you "guide" people in the direction THEY want to go...perhaps not being sure if the want to "leave religion"...or do you guide them in the direction YOU want them to go? I.E., becoming an atheist? Is that what you mean by being a FACILITATOR?

Considering how you hold believers in utter contempt, and routingly insult while signing off "peace and goodness" I wonder if you are as balanced as you think you are.

You deal with people so well, it is no wonder you are so successful.

Dolores Lear

"... there was no serious question that people's lives were -- and should be -- shaped by the church, its teachings and its clergy."

J.T.: (yesterday)
"The Bible clearly tells us that that there is way that feels right to someone which leads to death."

Proverbs 14:12. KJV. "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

The 'feels right' for a man, is the sex act, that led the Adam and Eve Purebred Clones to Reproduce Defective Children, that Killed.

And all Humans since, say it feels right to reproduce Humans, and then Kill Each Other, and their Home Planet.

The way that seems right to a man, Lust, does end in Death. Jesus tried to start the Celibate Male Movement, to control Misbreeding. But it did not take.

Jesus did get to go up into Space, 'to Heaven' Alive, in High Tech Regenerated Virgin Body.

Ever since The Adam and Eve Fallen Society, Males and Female joined Celibate/Virgin Communes.

In Jesus' time, the Celibate Essenes were active. In the 1900s, the Shakers were Celibate Females and Males.

J.T. (yesterday) "... so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

With our High Tech today, we do Reproduce Human fetus' in the lab, Asexually, without the sex act to the female. High Tech is a Way to Reproduce Virgin Male and Female Clones.

What is Truth? The High Tech Way to 'Eternal' Physical Life After Birth?

With High Tech Science, Humans can Reproduce Purebred Asexual Human Clones, and have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, 'on Planets and in Spaceships', like our High Tech Peace Ancestors, the God/Us in Genesis.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org


I was referring to clergy primarily in the "socio economic sense" and changing the world positively - i.e. WHAT IS IT THAT THEY ARE DOING CONTRIBUTING TO THE ECONOMY, CHARITY, PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD, etc. - in short "doing gods work" instead of "speaking for god.

If you take an "average" church (population 20-30 or is it 75 according to the latest stats? don't remember) - they can barely support themleves unless they have a benifactor or subsidized by other churches in the parish or region. This is why the % they contribute to charity is so small 3-5% I think on average - THE OVERHEAD TO HAVE A FAITH CONNECTION TO GOD IS SO HIGH.

The more I think the more it becomes clear to me that "small/medium" churches really do not have a scale of numbers to spend a large % of their income to charity.

One thing that is interesting to me is that there are churches OWNED BY INDIVIDUALS who preach there. I don't know a % but I bet you antyhing there are stats on it somewhere. This is where 1 person can make or break the % of $ going to charity. When you have an accountable board of Trustees, then you do have a better chance of tranparency. The same with the theocrat god - no transparancy and he is not accountable to anyone - nice!

At certain point, to become "very" profitable and be able to donate a large % of $ they have to be
* massive in numbers (e.g. Rick Warren's church, Joel Osteen TV ministry - where they go global with books, TV and radio shows)
* attract people who are of means or willing to donate a large % of their income regularly or in lump sumbs
* can get publicity state wide, nation wide, world wide for free through media which further leads to the pyramid scheme of generating even more $$$s.

I would ratehr prefer something like KiVa.org where individuals can dedicate 100% of their donations to the causes or the Catholic non profit center that Bill wrote about a couple of weeks ago.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Just Thinking wrote>>>>>>Just because you read in the Bible about things that people did, that does NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that God condones the behavior!!!!!!!
I wrote before >>>>POLYGAMY IS SANCTIONED IN THE BIBLE - see quotes from the Bible below.<<<<<


HAS GOD *****NOT******CONDONED THEIR BEHAVIOR? - yes he has.

Deuteronomy 21:15
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated....

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Thus saith the LORD God of Israel ... I gave thee ... thy master's wives....


The RR and freethinking picnic was great Saturday! People from Columbia and Topeka joined us and we had a wonderful time. People enjoying each other. No Xs came. They don’t want to be seen with us I quess. God might be watching. Well. I suppose god is watching according to them. There were some who replied but they were unable to make it.

Iggy I love your health care projections.

Stats on milloares in america

Polygamy: If I was rich I would have 6 wives. One pleasurable day with each, then one day of rest. That would be Monday. I love sinning on Sunday – I would no have to work on Sundays.

Of course some people here like the will/adam godhead might say, if they did agree with polygamy, they would only agree men should have this right. They don’t believe in equal rights. At least that is how I see it. Although I’m pretty sure there are women in the bible who had more than one man.

I believe we all have our own life journey. As long as it is tolerant of others I see it beneficial to a civilized society. Susan I know you to be a fair person, a benefit to society, and when people tell you that you are WRONG, perhaps they are simply arrogant in their make believe interpretation of 33,000 X sects or misinformed that people have options to paths in life or are a member of the authoritarian society of monotheism which mirrors polytheism In so many ways. If they would only take the blinders off they might realize your own way is also correct because it is fair. Or maybe they know this and just like thinking they a correct,quoting ancient biblical verses as if it has a place in modern society.

Susan, I think, maybe, someone on this site might be doing some drugs. To be able to interpret gods mind and know everybody should follow JTs interpretation is massive delusion. I know a psychologist if one is interested.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness

Dolores Lear

Michael Jackson, is a Human Specimen, that is a good Example for Body Birth Misbreeding of Children.

When a Human Male and Female, make a Child by Body Birth, who Knows what Genetic and Physical Makeup and Environment the Child will receive?
That is why the Church teaches to marry someone from your religion.

Most of Michael's Life has been on record, for All to Watch what Genetics and Environment can do to a Human.

Each new Generation that is born, will have mixture of Genetics, and similar Environmental Events in their Lifetime.

There are many other Michael Jacksons, Elvis Presleys, Marilyn Monroes, and Judy Garlands, Alive today, in their Generation's Lifestyle.

That is why there is an Environment Generation Gap in Parents and Child in Understanding each other.

We have a High Tech Way of Reproducing a Human Fetus in the lab; Humans do Know Cloning is possible.

If Life on Earth Evolved, why is all this Supernatural/High Tech Information in Genesis 1&2, about Colonizing a Planet, and Cloning Perfect Male and Female Clones, handed down from Generation to Generation?

Adam, a Perfect Male Human, was Copied into a Female Clone Helpmeet. They were Different from Body Birth Twins.

They had the Same Genetics and Generation experience. Why did they start making Unequal Children by Body Birth? God/Us, in our Human Image, did not approve.

Religion has been Good to preserve all the Past High Tech Killing History, of the Original Perfect Humans. Life did Not Evolve on Earth up to High Tech today.

Before High Tech Humans can escape our Dying Planet, from Original Sin, our Toxic Pollution and Nuclear Bombs will start the Planetary Judgment Day Fire.

Then Life as we Know it, cannot exist on our Home Planet Earth.


JT said, “You're not going to dream up who God Is, Susan. Truth is much deeper than what you're able to concoct. Real, deep Truth must be revealed. Where are the reliable witnesses, Susan? The thoughts in your mind concocting truth, or the words of a man who lived the only sinless life, who died, and who rose again?”
This is too much. JT sounds as if he has had a revelation. Is this true? God has personally spoken to you?. Wow. Perhaps you should alert the media about this. I am not afraid to tell the media how I think about my belief(s). Go for it JT.

JT continues to scold Susan’s view point of god, “You need to start with a reliable witness, Susan. And the only reliable witness I've ever heard of in this world is Jesus. He claimed to come from God, he lived a sinless life, he was crucified, dead, and yet he rose again bodily. There is overwhelming evidence that these things happened, Susan, even though you may not want to believe them. These facts have stood the test of scrutiny and of time.”

Reliable witness? Yet Jt says there is no overwhelming evidence. These (facts?) have stood the test of time? What facts? For whom? Most religious people in the world do not believe jesus to be the messiah, the way to god. And on top of that we nonreligious don’t believe it. I don’t know, it sounds like a philosophical battle that can be twisted for some time. Until a time we begin teaching religions in school. From first grade through college. The history of religions. It’s original intent and purpose until present day: Is it still beneficial? – was it ever? Check out Daniel Dennett’s book “BREAKING THE SPELL”. Susan, I can loan it to you.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole


JT preaches to Susan, “John 3:11-15
I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

What is this JT, Cliffs notes for the bible?: Are you praying for sainthood? John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

JT continues to preach from a book written by people as if it is gospel. The word of god 2 Timothy 3-16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Another person writes to another person when that first person was already dead before he wrote it. Puzzled? Check it out. Many scholars believe Paul was already dead when he supposedly wrote this to his beloved buddy Timothy. Continued


Continued: This is the bible, a hodge-podge of continuing rewrite and editing through centuries. There wasn’t a book (bible) until around 400 A.D. and it has been changed ever since between the ‘Church’ and the reformists ( protestants). Because so many lay people do not know the history of religion(s) (in America Xianity) they are ignorant of the natural world and why and how we think the way we do….

Until we study the evolution of psychology will we know this. Look in the mirror and ask yourself: “Why do I think like this? Read outside of the bronze age book and question why I am here. Ask yourself how many purposes do I have. What really matters?”

I have been ‘near’ death several times in my life. Never saw god once. I have seen death several times. Never saw god once. I witnessed the grim reaper (also make believe) snuff out a young person’s life in front of my apartment in KC kansas over a drug deal. Shot nine times, after he begged for his life. What have you truly seen in your life? Has it only been written words of ancient myth? Or wishing something to occur and if it happens proclaim it a miracle? Or have you actually experienced life? Bad or good. The natural world knows of neither. As a person, animal, mammal, I realize we are on our own and get on with it. It’s fun and educational, sometimes sad, but we get on with it. Hopefully people can learn more and contribute to the real world without superstition, supernaturalism,…god.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole


Joan of Arc: burned at the stake and now a saint. What does this say about religion? What does it say about a made-up god? These people were arguing whether the voices she heard were real. How can one ever know? Perhaps from ones actions. If it is not kind to society I say dismiss it.

Bill said, “Again, what's fascinating to me is to compare and contrast then in France and now in America in terms of the way society was simply then marinated in a religious culture and now is much, much less so."

I will agree with this. And it will become less and less so. That is the evolutionary way. Everything evolves and religions will follow to it’s eventual demise. Unless of course it can live in harmony with the real world. Maybe it has a chance. I still don’t see the benefit of a god knowing every thought I have…What kind of job or hobby is that? Think about it. That doesn’t seem weird to you?

Will. Show up at my next RR meeting and you can have your questions answered, football.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

adam harrison

Cole, I don't know about Will, but I would love to show up a a Recovery Meeting!

The trouble is, I was told told that people who are trying to set you atheists straight are not welcome! You see, I don't believe your "facilitating" would be worth a tinker's damn to anyone, especially someone with real problems.

You are just another kind of bigot, Hitler blamed "the Jews", you blame "religion", some people blame "blacks", or "Catholics" or whatever. You are nothing different.

But I agree that you are unbalanced: signing off peace and goodness after you insult people is, well, stupid.

adam harrison

Cole Morgan complains the NO CHRISTIANS showed up at the Revovery Meeting.

Thats not suprising, since Christians are told on the site that THEY ARE NOT WELCOME unless the keep their beliefs to themselves.

So much for "FREE"THOUGHT! LOL!



I have a lot of respect for Joan of Arc. And I guess the reason she got burned as a heretic, was that she claimed to have a revelation from God after the Scriptures had already been canonized, huh? This leads into my response to Just Thinking.

Just Thinking, that is very interesting about the green looking like a completely different color depending on whether it was contrasted with orange or fuschia. This reminds me of how a fundamentalist (or literalist) can read the Bible and see some things totally differently from how a universalist sees them. You do realize that Christian Universalists (people who believe we will all ultimately be reconciled to God) value the Bible every bit as highly as a fundamentalist/literalist does (only they don't think it was all intended to be taken at face-value)?

It would be easier to take in what you wrote, J.T., if you didn't feel this compulsion to keep attacking strawmen. Where on earth did you get the idea that I don't want to allow for the possibility that I could be wrong? Fallibilism is a central piece of my life philosophy, and I've actually linked to an article about fallibilism (by physicist David Deutsch) a couple of times, right here on this blog.

You also implied, Just Thinking, that I may not want to believe in the deity, sinlessness, crucifiction, and resurrection of Jesus. For you to be creating these above 2 "strawmen" makes me wonder if you've even read my posts? I understand that we don't all always have time to carefully mull over each poster's words, sometimes we're in a hurry and have to skim -- but these are areas I've talked about so much here that I honestly don't see how you could have missed them. (Continued)


(Continued) Just Thinking, I do agree with you that Jesus Christ is the most reliable witness there is. That's why I'm so glad that I have His Spirit living within me, to guide me into all truth. And to guide me in reading and interpreting the Bible as well as other writings that I am learning a lot from.

And, no, it isn't all about what feels good to me. Though I will admit, as a loving parent, that part of what got me questioning the conventional doctrine about an angry, punitive, but neverthelesss totally-loving God (what was it Red Biddy said about how A can't both be A and NOT be A?). Because if I can cool down and not feel a need to pour out my wrath on my precious children, surely God's love is waay more powerful than any puny love I could ever dream up.

I've also been realizing that a totally-loving God who yearns for relationship with us, must have always been speaking to anyone who would listen. And I've been learning so much through reading Tao Te Ching (I started it yesterday). Tao Te Ching seems to have been written possibly a little before the Hebrew Testament was written.

What's kind of sad is that a mere year or so ago I would have shut myself off from the wisdom of the Tao -- because it would have seemed like I was "having other Gods before God." Now I know that S/HE is one and the same God, and has been speaking to people everywhere, including Joan of Arc, who was burned as a heretic, I guess because she got a revelation after the Scriptures were canonized -- or maybe because her revlation didn't fit with the current Church doctrine.

Iggy, there are lots of smaller churches here in my neighborhood. Most of the pastors have fulltime secular jobs. Cole, thanks for the offer of the book loan. That sounds interesting.

Red Biddy

Poor Joan of Arc. If she'd lived in this century and "revealed" that she heard voices, she would have been diagnosed as schizophrenic and put on medication.

I almost missed Will G's comment yesterday in regard to my two Jewish husbands. Had a feeling I shouldn't have given that piece of personal info.out on this page :)

I don't think either of my husbands would have bothered a hoot over Pilate being rude to Jesus, or the Roman's being the cause of the Jewish diaspora ! I do remember my first husband saying that Christianity had been the downfall of Roman civilization and had plunged Europe into the Dark Ages though. It's an opinion also found in Gibbons monumental "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire". So chew on that one WillG in the context of the idea that Xianity has always been a good influence in the world !

All I know is that after the Roman's left around 500 CE indoor plumbing was an unknown commodity in Britain for the next 1500 years !

Red Biddy

JT's green/blue experiment doesn't work ! The green is green and the blue is blue (actually turqoise)in any combination of colors. It was fun to do but placing two identical green boxes side by side was intended to mislead the eye - didn't mine but then one of my hobbies is painting - so I was not fooled. Might work on someone whose color blind tho'.

If this was supposed to persuade Susan, or any of us, that your preaching is the Truth, it wasn't a very good example was it ?
I really don't "get" why JT and Susan think Jesus is a reliable witness. Witness to what ?

Just because someone wrote,that a man called Jesus who probably never existed historically (in spite of what Bart Erhman thinks !) boasted that he thought he was "...the Life, the Truth and the Way" doesn't make it so.....besides other prophets have said very similar things. And what does it mean anyway ?

Claims to "revelation" (like poor Joan of Arc) are always suspect whether its written in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Veda, or the Koran......"witnesses" to these utterances are probably as dotty as the ones having them -or to use an Oprah phrase an "AHA" moment !

If one were to apply the scientific method to the resurrection stories the truth of the matter simply doesn't pass muster. An experiment has to be repeatable and none falsifiable and this event on which the whole Xian belief rests simply couldn't have happened.

Death is the land "from whose bourne no traveller returns" that's a fact. No one has come back not even Jesus.


To KC Free Thinkers - I am new to this blog (I followed a link from an atheist group who spoke highly of Mr. Tammeus) and wanted to respond to a couple of things you have posted. I am familiar with - and share - Bill's generally centrist veiwpoint and was encouraged that he was endorsed by one of your peers. To be fair - I identify as a Christian, albeit one who does not always condone or share the views are others who claim the same faith. However much I may despise extremism among those who call themselves Christians, ignorance and intolerance is a two edged sword. Your reply to Susan regarding the charity work/contributions of churches was filled with assumption and vague (at best)"statistics" that you admittedly could not verify. Another post goes on to purport taht the Bible condones polygamy. That reveals (as do many other inflammatory arguments I've seen thus far) a true lack of effort to even understand what you are arguing against. I believe there is room for meaningful discussion among us all. Intelligently, tactfully, thoughtfully, and tolerantly. I welcome your responses and would welcome an opportunity to hear/see the concept of a Recovery Meeting.


To expand on my last post specific to the work of the local church - you must identify the goal and the outcome. I agree if you simply wish to GIVE your money to a charity, you should simply research one that makes the best use of your money in an cause important to you. However, a church's identity as a non-profit charity has a much broader purpose. Its members benefit from what each collectively contributes to the "pie" through programs the church may offer to its youth, its elderly, or its immediate local community. Small to medium churches often (although not always) have volunteer pastors who work a separate position during the week so as not to take a salary from the church. The church is left with more money then to operate - sending children to camp or on mission trips. These types of churches operate food banks, contribute to utility funds for those who cannot afford to pay high energy costs, and volunteer to lend a hand to those beaten down from what life often throws at all of us. These churches often operate in a very similar fashion to a New Testament model in that its members are like family. Just recently I was witness to very young family with a 2 yr old daughter (with another on the way) whose home was broken into and ransacked. After insurance applied depreciation to their lost items and subtracted the deductible they were left wondering how to begin to replace all they had lost and begin to move on. Their church "family" took a collection exclusively for them - sending them home smiling for the first time in nearly a week. Don't be so quick to judge what you do not know. If I come to the end of my life to find out that you are correct and there is no God - my life will have been fuller for the "family" I found at my church.

adam harrison

Lets not forget that atheists killed millions of people in the last century, and it is still going on in this century.

And they did it BECAUSE of their atheistic hatred of believers, and a desire to stamp out religion.

This is indisputable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn devoted his Three Volume series The Gulag Archipelago to proving this, and won a Nobel Prize.

adam harrison

Susan, those are some interesting remarks about the Tao, but since you claim to believe that Jesus Christ is the most reliable witness there, and since the Tao was written long before his earthly sojourn, it would seem that his work supercedes the teachings of the Tao.

Could you explain why you think God is speaking through the Tao?

Thanks in advance!

adam harrison

Now Cole claims to have had several near death experiences, and to have WITNESSED a murder! The story gets better and better.

But Cole, did you report what you saw to the police? If so, there should be a report, if not, well, maybe you need to adjust your story.

What ya think, sport?

Red Biddy

REALLY Dolores - how can you say things like Michael Jackson is a good Example for Body Birth Misbreeding of Children !!!

There was nothing "misbred" about Michael Jackson. He was pure Afro-American, a fine looking kid with an extraordinary talent and a super voice ! I'm not a big fan of that kind of music but there are millions of people all over the world who are.

He had a lot of health problems as he got older - lupus for one - which is very painful, (which is why he was often in a wheel chair) and a rare condition many very dark people get (not just blacks) but anyone with a dark skin called vitiligo. It's why he went from being totally black to white. There's no cure for this condition. My first husband had it - so I know all about what the poor kid must have been suffering.
Honestly, Dolores MISBRED ??? You sound like a complete racist - guess you didn't approve of blacks marrying whites because they might be misbreeding ?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

adamh wrote>>>>>>> Cole, I don't know about Will, but I would love to show up a a Recovery Meeting! The trouble is, I was told told that people who are trying to set you atheists straight are not welcome! You see, I don't believe your "facilitating" would be worth a tinker's damn to anyone, especially someone with real problems.

Cole, it looks like adamh is saying he has some real problems? - in his own words? Or is he wanting to come out and "straighten" you atheists out so the people with "real problems" understand there are better "straight" ways out there - i.e. "salvation through salivation" - or exactly what they are trying to get out - religion.

The football is just not making any sense. He clearly doesn't get the point that people who are seeking out these groups are out there NOT to be preached to by those who want to "straighten them out" but rather want to "get the hell out of religoious Dodge".

You and I, on the other hand, take a different approach - you and I are typcially "invited" to Bible studies - atheists are a novelty and there is always a "lost soul" that can be saved. Till the discussions deteriorate in "visions from god/satan" and "100% proof revelations come from the space alien" or "If god came to me now and told me to kill you, I'd kill you".

I don't know if our "soccer/foot ball" can win - Russians have a saying "He wants to eat a fish and sit on a d.ck" - it also rhymes in a funny way, or as you'd say "Have the cake and eat it too" but it is not so funny. With the "odd" balls like adamh/Will Graham and Grady (who is on your RR Meetup site already) it is always funny - because they DEMAND RESPECT for ideas that are beyond funny.

And that is funny in itself.

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