Another anti-terrorism move?: 6-24-09
Targeting Christian bucks: 6-26-09

Don't forget Orthodoxy: 6-25-09

I have said here over and over again how important it is for average citizens to understand how religion influences the world around them -- even if they themselves are not adherents of any religion.

Orthodoxy

Much the same thing is true for governments. Our own government, for instance, must understand the various branches of Islam (and how that religion plays out in different cultures) if it is to make sense of such hot spots as the Middle East, including Iran and Iraq.

But the picture of religions in the world is often more complex than most people realize. And a good reminder of that came recently in a speech given by a Boston University teacher who also is a member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom.

Elizabeth Prodromou suggested that the Obama administration would be making a big mistake if it did not take the time to factor in Orthodox Christianity as an important influence in key parts of the world. There are, after all, some 350 million Orthodox Christians in the world, and their approach to life can set the tone for how things play out in many countries.

Orthodoxy, of course, like many branches of many faiths, is not monolithic, as Prodromou correctly noted, so it will be important for members of Obama's foreign policy team to grasp some of the subtleties and divisions within it -- and how those might differ from, say, Catholicism and Protestantism (both branches of which also have various divisions, some formal, some not).

In the end, religion is an extraordinarily important factor in how people and nations behave, and yet religion is also enormously complicated. It's a good message to remember for all of us.

* * *

CAN'T WE JUST ELECT GOD?

In this intriguing analysis, the argument is that the clerics in Iran have given theocracy a bad name. Well, yes, but it doesn't take much to do injury to a system that is so pitifully inappropriate. Humans claiming to speak for God should always be under suspicion.

* * *

NOTE: Until Tuesday, June 30, my Internet access may be limited and/or sporadic, so a long time may go by before I can publish any comments you leave here. Thanks for your patience. I'll eventually get to them. Bill.

Comments

Dolores Lear

Bill:
"In the end, religion is an extraordinarily important factor in how people and nations behave, and yet religion is also enormously complicated. It's a good message to remember for all of us. - Humans claiming to speak for God should always be under suspicion."

Hebrews 11:1-3. KJV. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Humans today, Know Something 'Not' in Human Form, is the Source of the Elements that make our Universe, with Visible and Invisible Element Life.

In the Past, this Source was called a Supernatural God in Religion and Myth. The Christian Bible, and other Holy Books, record this Source as God, in our Human Image.

Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

This goes on to explain how the null and void Earth's Water Atmosphere, became a Planet with an atmosphere. The water separated, with water going above the firmament/atmosphere, and the water below became a sea around the land area.

Genesis does not record how the Universe was formed from Elements Seen and Not Seen, into Universes with Galaxies, Solar Systems and Planets.

Genesis does not record how Life as we Know it, Evolved in the Universes.

Until the High Tech Science explosion, for the past 100 years, Humans called Life on Earth, a Supernatural Creation, by God.

Natural Humans could not Create an Atmosphere on a Planet and add Life Species to a Planet, like God did, that walked and talked with Humans, and made Humans in their God/Us Image.

Continued.

Dolores Lear

Continue.

Humans need a New Definition of Faith, in LIFE, and in the High Tech Supernatural Unknown.

High Tech Science Humans, are the Unknown Supernatural Peace Gods of Religion and Myth. The Killer Supernatural Gods are the High Tech Noah/Atlantis Society, that Evolved up to High Tech Science Killers, like Humans are today.

GOD nor God our High Tech Asexual Virgin Clone Humans Do Not Kill.

The Killer Humans of the Elements, set up the Planetary Noah/Atlantis Flood.

Killer Humans today, have set up the Unbalanced Elements for the Prophesied Planetary Judgment Day Fire.

Exactly what is Religious Faith about today, with our High Tech Science Knowledge of Life Elements? The same as Humans without High Tech Science? Eternal Life After Death with the Lord God?

The Lord God are Alive Humans, and Jesus is Alive with them. We know today, that when Life made from Elements die, their Bodies return to LIFE Elements, to the Earth's Atmosphere/Heaven.

Genesis 1:8. "And God called the firmament Heaven."

The Firmament was Earth's Atmosphere, not somewhere in Space.

When the Adam and Eve Clone Colony, started Reproducing Humans by Body Birth, Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth of the Earth's Elements began.

And will End, when our High Tech Pollution and Nuclear Bombs burn up All LIFE on Earth, along with Earth's Eco System, in the Planetary Judgment Day Fire of Fallen Humans.

Earth will then be null and void of LIFE like Mars.

Dolores Lear

Continued.

Planets and the Species are made from the Same Elements. A Human made from the Elements, cannot make the Elements, Seen and Unseen. So Natural Humans, that translated Scripture and Myth, called this Source a Supernatural God.

The GOD of the Elements is not a Visible Human. The Lord God/Us in Genesis, are a Visible Perfect Male and Female Human Clone, High Tech Human Species.

After the Perfect Male and Female Humans 'Sinned', they lost their Virginity and Equality with these High Tech Clone Virgin Humans. Then they were translated, Gods, Goddesses, and Angels.

These Two GOD/God descriptions in Religion and Myth could not be Separated, until our High Tech Science, also relearned the Mystery of Colonizing a Planet, and reproducing a Human Fetus in the Lab, and Cloning Animals.

This High Tech Mystery, of Gods in our Human Image, flying in Space, and Colonizing Planets, can be Solved by our High Tech Science Knowledge today.

The GOD that Created the Elements cannot be Known, even by the High Tech Human Species.

The High Tech Revolution for the Past 100 years, has given Humans Knowledge of Supernatural High Tech Colonization and Reproduction.

In Human Body Birth Reproduction, With High Tech Knowledge of the Elements of the Universe, Human do not need Faith in the Supernatural God, in our Human Image, Handed down in the writings of Past Natural Humans.

The Elements in the Universe are Seen and Unseen. Visible and Invisible Elements make Life as we Know it. Not a God in our Image, or a God in Three 'Persons', in Man-Made Religions and Myths.

Continue.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

adamh wrote>>>>>>>IGOR DYBAL=KCFreethinker says that it has been shown that inanimate matter can produce intelligence. WHERE HAS THIS BEEN SHOWN? PROVE YOUR CLAIM!

****CHRISTIAN LOONEY ALERT FOR ADAMH****

This is what I wrote, adamh - "Our irratoinal adamh=Will Graham moans about "innanimate matter forming intelligence" and when it's shown it can I ASS:o)ume he "may" reconsider but even then crazies like him will cling to "But were you there? The space alien works in mysterious ways through the Holy Spirit and scientific principles".

NOWHERE is stated IT HAS BEEN SHOWN, but "when it's shown" - i.e. (in the future). The issue deals with THE PREMISE THAT NOTHING WILL CHANGE MIND OF CRAZIES LIKE YOU - even facts, because psychologically humans are programmed to maintain an equilibrium of mental delusions to maintain societal cohesivness in one form or another.

The only solution is for people like you to die out like dinasaurs and carry with them the baggage of the delusional past. Just like in science which incrimentally chips away at our lack of undersanding of the world and "innanimate" matter, the same goes for the "crazy putty" that is in your delusional brain polluted by demons of illogicity.

So if you know anything about grammar, you'd understand it, but if your judgement is clouded by engrams, demons and thetans that a certain space alien named Yahweh implanted into you or has them floating around you then you HAVE TO THINK THAT THE WORLD IS EVIL AND VILE and that ANYONE WHO OPPOSES YOUR VIEW IS SUCH.

From your favorite book of fiction - "The fool has said in his heart there is no god. Nothing he does is good. Everythign he does is vile and evil"

You have to bypass the 2,000 year+ old mythology of a desert tribe and move on into modern times.

There are no fools, there are no evil people, there is no truth - it's what you make of it.

"That's all I have to say about that."

Piggy Diabolical

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

My little sister, an agnostic, contacted me in response to the Faith section KC Star article on Recovering from Religion – http://www.kansascity.com/238/story/1249250.html

This is her reply:

Wow….what a great article! I went to Tate’s church dedication a few weeks ago and I couldn’t believe how many times/different ways the minister said how weak and needy we were. It was crippling and controlling! I had not been to church since believing a different way that I forgot those things

Hope things are going well with you!

Thanks for sharing!

Love Kathy

The following came from another family member. He means well and we get along.

“Religion/faith can be used as a tool to improve your life. It's really up to the individual to figure out how it works for them. 



I used to think I was too smart for religion. There are many arguments that it is impossible to be too smart to be religious, but here's my favorite: 



If you're devout, and god exists, you get to live eternally in heaven. 
If you're an atheist and god exists, you get to live in hell for eternity. 
If you're devout, and god does not exist, you get to rot in a box for eternity. 
If you're an atheist and god does not exist, you also rot in a box for eternity. You get no extra credit for being right. You've accepted all the risk with no extra potential award.”

Without knowing it, he is betting on Pascal’s wager. So if I don’t believe, and I can’t – no evidence, but pretend to believe, then what? The X god knows all, so he knows I am pretending. I still go to hell. Your god is just too smart with his thought crime rule. Which was conveniently designed by people.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

I have been helping my oldest daughter, an elementary school teacher, with summer school for the past four weeks. A very intelligent 4th grader has shown a very depressed side. He recently wrote a story how his life is sad ( death of pets, family members and a disruptive X family). His mother has told him how nice heaven will be. His written story told how sad he is and how much pain he is in and would like to kill himself so he can go to heaven and end all his suffering. My daughter is going through the proper channels to hopefully prevent this.

Why would he think this? I am very concerned about this bright kid. This should never be an option for a child. I see no purpose for an everlasting life in heaven. I do see a rewarding life in this natural world. Too bad children are not taught this from birth. Don’t give them, at an impressionable age, such an option as killing yourself for a great place in heaven. This is not right.

Three weeks ago my youngest daughter, pregnant, was rushed to the hospital. The Doctors could not figure out why she was bleeding and having contractions at 30 weeks. Full term is 40 weeks. Usually by 33 weeks a baby’s lungs are fully developed so this was of great issue. Her Doctor was wonderful. Getting more professional opinions and holding my daughter’s hand in between rounds. that evening he said he would not be able to sleep that night so he made the choice to take the baby. Fifty years ago, maybe less, my daughter and grandson would likely be dead as I write this. My grandson was born screaming and perfect color because of modern medicine, science, and my daughter is alive and doing well. After three weeks, Luke, with his mother and father, came home today with no complications. I never saw god or jesus once during this. Amazing what people can do in the natural world. Amazing what we will do in the future….

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill wrote>>>>>>>In this intriguing analysis, the argument is that the clerics in Iran have given theocracy a bad name. Well, yes, but it doesn't take much to do injury to a system that is so pitifully inappropriate. Humans claiming to speak for God should always be under suspicion.

Bill, wow!

I don't know what to say about your last sentence! Kudos to you for that. Our own "blog grown" religious crazies should have a field day with this one.

I cannot but wonder if you consider your blog as

* "speaking for god?" or is it
* "speaking for myself because you think or is it 'KNOWN TO YOU" god is real?" or is it
* "speaking for myself because you think you can have a bird's eye view of the world and just cherry pick from the word of god (real or imaginary) what you fill fits your needs? or is it
* "speaking for myself" because the god you claim people should not be speaking for is the only god you were brought up to accept.

Either way, not a problem with me... Liberal Xians like you are the cream of the crop of the Xianity when it comes to rationality and bird's eye view of the world.

I wish there were more folks like you.

Susan

Bill, I agree that we shouldn't forget Orthodoxy! As a matter of fact, I think most Palestinian Christians are Orthodox. It would be very interesting to know their views on the 2-state solution, and on other issues pertaining to Israel/Palestine. When I read the polls about Palestinian's views, I always wonder how much Christian Palestinians get included.

Will Graham or adamh, whichever of you seemed to be accusing Cole of lying/exaggerating over the large response to the article in the K.C. Star -- there is also a place where readers can send emails. And Cole mentioned at least one person who knows him in real life, who talked with him after reading the article. So I wouldn't assume Cole was just talking about the comments that were there for everyone to read.

Oh, and I didn't see anyplace where Iggy claimed that it HAD BEEN PROVEN that inanimate matter could produce intelligence. He was just saying that even if it HAD been proven, it wouldn't change your mind about God. Would it? It sure wouldn't make me stop believing!

adam harrison

Regarding my point that it has not been proven that inanimate matter could produce intelligence, the issue is that IGGY BELIEVES THAT IS THE CASE!

As an atheist, he believes that inanimate matter produced intelligence, and of course life for that matter.

This, of course, has never been demonstrated, much less proven, but IGGY BELIEVES IT ANYWAY!

NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE HIS MIND, BECAUSE HE DOES NOT REQUIRE PROOF FOR HIS FAITH.

As he stated, The Only TRUTH is that there IS NO TRUTH! (And this, of course is irrationally self refuting but it does not matter...he was raised in a society that told him to hate beleivers and it shows.)

What is really funny SUSAN, is that you REPEATEDLY come to Iggy's defense but don't say a word about his particularly vicious posts...come on, didn't the post about him watching the dogs fight and describing how they bit each other in the "anus" nauseate you just a little.

I mean, thats frigging sick.

As to Cole, the misleading aspect of his work is that he is not a "recovering" religionist...by his own account he hated it as a kid.

adam harrison

Cole, you should advise your daugher, the teacher, that according to the Corbett case posted here yesterday she can be held liable for violating a religious child's Constitutional rights should she denigrate religion in the classroom.

Just as the state cannot ESTABLISH religion through promotion, neither can it RESTRICT THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF through denigration.

A word to the wise.

adam harrison

Debate Topic:

Iggy's change of mind.

It is impossible.

NOTHING CAN CHANGE IGGY'S MINE ABOUT BEING AN ATHEIST, given his presuppostions.

I CHALLENGE IGGY TO GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT COULD CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT CHRISTIANS...

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

The weather looks like it might be pretty hot on Saturday, That will not stop us. For those who want to get out of the heat, my house will be open and air conditioned. And you can socialize inside or out. We will also have a hose for spraying hot kids and plenty of ice cold water. I also have a shelter in my yard to sit under after reeling in a 20 lb catfish.

Feel free to come as early as noon, but the main festivities probably won't get started until 5:00 or so. We will go as late as you want.

Wow, I just looked at the members on the meetup list and there are already 40 people for the Wyandotte county meetup and 11 on the Johnson County site. Of course, some overlap and some are out of town and showing their support, but most are local. I hope all will come to the picnic on Saturday. It will be a great opportunity to meet others and have a good time. We have a musician who has agreed to bring his guitar and play some free thought songs. If you play an instrument and want to jam along, bring yours as well. I will have my trusty harmonica.
Please see the details in the meetup announcement. If you have not RSVP'd already, please do as soon as you know. Contact me if you have questions.

Darrel

More details below at the Johnson county site:

http://www.meetup.com/Johnson-County-Recovering-from-Religion/

See you there. Cole Morgan

The Secular Parent

"Humans claiming to speak for God should always be under suspicion."

I completely agree with you Bill. Anyone, from any faith, that decides they speak for God should be scrutinized. That's why, when it comes to teaching faith, we should represent those faiths, and the people that claim to know what God wants, very carefully to budding minds.

Sure, Mohammad said that he knew what Allah wanted, but why should we believe him? And yes, Jesus went so far as to say he was the son of God, but so did a dozen other people of the time--what made Jesus so special?

Children should be raised to understand the faults in the messenger, as well as the faults of the message itself. In addition, they should be taught that despite these faults, many people still believe. As long as they are choosing with a knowledge of both sides, they are making an informed decision.
www.secularparenting.wordpress.com

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