An American eugenics: 6-16-09
A new Jewish voice: 6-18-09

When the subject is death: 6-17-09

Cemetery

On an irregular basis, I walk through three cemeteries not far from where I live. I enjoy looking at the names on tombstones and thinking about the lives of the people buried there.

So the other day -- cool and cloudy -- I was walking through Forest Hill Cemetery, having just passed by the grave of Buck O'Neill, when I noticed that not far from the stone fence along Troost Avenue, a green tent was set up for a burial and that people had begun to gather.

I watched as about 30 cars drove in, carrying mourners to the burial site. I watched as one man got out of his car and hugged first a woman and then another man.

The hearse stopped as close to the grave as it could get, and eventually pall bearers carried the coffin to the tent. Most of 100 people followed and then gathered around. I was about 150 yards away and could not hear what words were said, though for sure I heard three men in military uniforms each fire their rifles three times into the air in a salute.

Several things struck me.

* First was seeing a child in the crowd of people and wondering whether he would always remember this day, the way I have always remembered watching the burial of a great aunt in 1955.

* Second was a reminder of the permanence of death. Just in front of me, for instance, I noticed a grave marker of a man who has been dead more than 100 years. And, of course, will be forever.

* Third, looking at that man's gravestone (I shot the imperfect picture here on my cell phone) I was reminded sharply of the life and death of my own father. The man buried here, Alexander Martin, was born on my father's birthday, Nov. 7 (though Dad was born in 1909, not 1846) and died on my father's death day, Jan. 2 (though Dad died in 1992, not 1908).

Naturally, all of that got me thinking about my own death and the life I'm called to lead before that happens. Which, after all, is ultimately why you think about death at all.

* * *

ARE GOOD ISLAMIC CHARITIES BEING HURT?

A new report from the American Civil Liberties Union charges that the U.S. government's crackdown on Islamic charities as a way of stopping the funding of terrorism has gone way overboard and is hurting the legitimate needs of Muslims to make charitable donations. Giving to charity is one of the five pillars of Islam. And I know Muslims who worry about what Islamic charities to give to now. At the same time, cutting off funding for violent extremists is crucial, and efforts to raise such money should not be allowed to hide behind charity groups. For the full ACLU report, click here.

Comments

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill wrote>>>>>>>>Naturally, all of that got me thinking about my own death and the life I'm called to lead before that happens. Which, after all, is ultimately why you think about death at all.

Bill, I don't think about death at all. No fear, no desire to even consider what it will be like. From all we know from medical research, for the overwhelming majority of people it is painless like going to sleep and it's over.

I am curious though (this is the only fear I have) is how lack of oxygen and breathing will effect me at death. When I was a kid I was in a competitive swimming team and holding breath in the water was nothing big. I recall my friends and I would swim the length of the Olympic size pool under water and always try to beat each other on speed and time going back for a second lap. This is when you are burning and your lungs are contracting like crazy and you want to burst out of the water for a gulp of air.

You are conscious at that time unlike at death when all indications are that your brain just shuts off and you are flooded with chemicals that will subdue your pain and put you into trans.

I recall at 10-12 asking my father what happens after death - he said he did not know but it's something he was not looking forward to finding out.

In a weird way I am actually looking forward to death. My son and I every year go out on a week long amsument park roller coaster tour - I think death will beat all of them.

A couple of times I was involved in car accidents and I bet you anything that the split moment when you are hit or your car is flying through the air (when I hit a curb before X-mas last year coming down hill and hitting an icy patch) and then smashes all four wheels back on the street and you black out for a momnet - the feeling is really interesting.

So, I'll share with you about it when you and I will be eating spaghetti in the heaven of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Let's compare notes then.

Just Thinking

Matthew 25:34-40
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'" - Jesus
----------------------------------------------------------
Martin Luther King concerning his own funeral
----------------------------------------------------------
Every now and then I guess we all think realistically about life's final common denominator, that something that we call death. We all think about it. And every now and then I think about my own death and I think about my own funeral. And I don't think of it in a morbid sense. Just every now and then I ask myself, "What is it that I would want said?" And I leave the word to you this morning.

If any of you are around when I have to meet my day, I don't want a long funeral. And if you get somebody to deliver the eulogy, tell them not to talk too long.

Tell them not to mention that I have a Nobel Peace Prize, that's not important. Tell them not to mention that I have three or four hundred other awards: that's not important. Tell them not to mention where I went to school.

I'd like somebody to mention that day that Martin Luther King, Jr., tried to give his life serving others.

I'd like for somebody to say that day that Martin Luther King, Jr., tried to love somebody.

(continued)

Just Thinking

King (continued)
------------------------------
I want you to say that day that I tried to be right on the war question.

I want you to be able to say that day that I did try to feed the hungry.

And I want you to be able to say that day that I did try to clothe those who were naked.

I want you to say on that day that I did try in my life to visit those who were in prison.

I want you to say that I tried to love and serve humanity.

Yes, if you want to say that I was a drum major, say that I was a drum major for justice.

Say that I was a drum major for peace. I was a drum major for righteousness.

And all of the other shallow things will not matter. I won't have any money to leave behind. I won't have the fine and luxurious things of life to leave behind. But I just want to leave a committed life behind.

Yes, Jesus, I want to be on your right or your left side, not for any selfish reason. I want to be on your right or your left side, not in terms of some political kingdom or ambition. But I just want to be there in love and in justice and in truth and in commitment to others, so that we can make of this old world a new world.

adam harrison

Bill, that is a pretty grim message on death.

You mention the "permanence of death" and the man who has been dead for 100 years. "And, of course, will be forever.".

That is, of course, the message of atheism, but not of Christianity...are you letting us know that you do not believe in the resurrection, and that your sympathies are with the atheists?

There are many in our church who are wondering about that, since you have let your forum become a sounding board for bigoted, anti semtic, racist slurs on believers of all kinds, especially noting the most recent post which continually quote mine the Old Testament for purposes of ridiculing Judaism.

Dolores Lear

Visible and Invisible, LIFE in the Universes Continue. When Elements Die on a Planet, the Universe does not Die. The Elements just Change Form from Visible to Invisible.

In Our High Tech Knowledge Explosion for the past 100 years, Humans Know about Universes with Galaxies and Star/Solar Systems.

Science Knows a Universe can collapse into a Black Hole. The Black Hole regenerates and again explodes into a Big Bang, and a new Balanced Universe.

The Element Makeup remains the same Balance in a Universe, until it gets Unbalanced and Collapses. The elements are Born Again in a New Universe, for Use by High Tech Humans, with the High Tech to escape their Collapsing Universe.

How LIFE began, may never be Known, but with our High Tech, we can Know Humans do Have High Tech Eternal Physical Life on Planets and in Spaceships.

High Tech Humans 'in our Image, did Colonize Earth 'in the beginning', and are able with High Tech, to escape their Universe when necessary.

The Equal Sharing High Tech Peace Lifestyle in a Spaceship, should be the same Equal Sharing High Tech Human Peace Lifestyle, for Humans on their Spaceship Planet.

The Population should be Controlled with High Tech Equal High Tech Celibate Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Body Birth Killer Humans, had a Population Explosion for 100 years, and make High Tech Nuclear Bombs and Pollution with LIFE Elements, that destroys the Eco System of our Earth Spaceship? Why?

Death of our Planet's Eco System, is happening, and until our Universe Collapses to again Re-explode into a New Fresh Balanced Universe, our Elements Remain on Earth, unless some are Saved Alive like Jesus.

Eternal Human Physical Asexual Celibate Life After Birth, like Jesus has with the Father/Us Humans in our Image, is possible on Planets and in Spaceships.

Eternal Physical Element Life, After Birth, is for the Living High Tech Celibate Peace Human Clones, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Dolores Lear

Charity, like Taxes, can be used for Killing Humans and All Life on Earth. No one has Control of the Money they give to Governments or Charities.

There is an Equal Sharing Way for Humans to Live, on their Spaceship Planet. Equality in All Life Levels.

Earth is a Spaceship, cut off from outside help, unless it is in Spaceships, from another Planet. The LIFE Elements Remain the same, as they change forms in use.

Our Planet was null and void of LIFE, and the Lord God/Us, in our Human Image, did Change the Void into a Living Planet. Today we call this Colonization.

The Lord God/Us, in our Human Image, came to Earth in Spaceships, did made Humans in their Image, male and female.

'Super'naturally by High Tech, from the Male Rib, they made a Female Helpmeet. Today we call that High Tech Cloning.

When this Group, more than two Human Celibate Clone Helpmeets, began Heterosexual Body Birth, Equality went out the window. Greed, Inequality, Inhumanity, Killing and Death began.

Religions and Charities began and Governments and Taxes began. Humans lost their Free Will, and have been in Human Bondage Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth of the Planet's Elements ever since.

Now our LIFE Elements are tied up in Overpopulation, Trash, Toxic Waste and Nuclear Bombs on Land and Sea. How Can our Eco System, made from these same Elements, Survive?

What is the Limit of Passengers, Killing, and Trash on Planet Earth, for Earth to Stay Alive?

The Human Species was supposed to be the Caretaker of the Elements of our Planet. What Happened to make them the Killer Species?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

THINK! QUESTION! DON'T RELY ON FAITH - I have a giant diamond buried in my back yard, let's all go and worship it in return for eternal salvation. This is a MUST SEE TV for those who are taking things on faith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ

Sue, there is more on Women in the Bible

***YOUR NON SENSICAL QUOTES FOR THE DAY***

from Mark now
# Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families. 10:29-30
# In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women. 13:17

from Luke now
# Even Mary had to be "purified" after giving birth to Jesus. Was she defiled by giving birth to the Son of God? 2:22
# Males are holy to God, not females. 2:23
# Peter and his partners (James and John) abandon their wives and children to follow Jesus. 5:11
# Jesus, when told that his mother and brothers want to see him, ignores and insults them by saying that his mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it. 8:20-21
# Abandon your wife and family for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 18:29-30

Just Thinking

Proverbs 8
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.

KCFreeThinkers.org
"In a weird way I am actually looking forward to death."

Revelation 12
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.

Susan

Iggy, I thought I'd mention the verse about the man who told Jesus he'd follow, but first he wanted to go bury his father -- and Jesus expected him to follow now. I suppose the face-value reading would be "My dad just died" and Jesus saying "No you can't go to the funeral." But that doesn't really make any sense, because the man would most likely be in mourning right then, and not be out talking to Jesus.

I really think the man was saying his dad didn't want him to follow Jesus, so therefore he felt he needed to wait 'til his dad was dead and gone before he gave his life to Jesus. Kind of like my Korean friend, whose family moved here to the U.S. when she was in high school, but pressured her to marry a Korean man. When she came back several years ago for a visit, she sadly informed me that she couldn't be a practicing Christian again, until after her mother-in-law was dead.

I understand that Jesus said following Him would put family members at enmity with one another -- but since He also placed great emphasis on caring for those in need, I feel sure He wasn't saying "abandon your family" -- as a matter of fact, He actually said it was wrong to tell your parents, "Anything I might have had to care for you in your old age, I've already given to God."

I actually think the conflict Jesus was talking about, wasn't a conflict that would ensue because of people abandoning their needy relatives -- but one that would ensue when people who felt culturally-entitled to control their children even after they were grown, would suddenly realize that God had freed their children to have minds of their own. It's a bitter pill to swallow -- especially since some of these parents were heavily-controlled by their own parents -- then when it was their turn to be boss, their own children no longer felt bound to the old rules.

Last time I saw my Korean friend, she was talking about the life she'd mapped out for her oldest son ... I guess she thinks it's her turn to be boss now ...

Susan

Bill, how neat that you take walks through cemeteries. I need to do that sometimes.

About the Muslim charities and concerns about them funding terrorism -- I think that's what got Mark D. Siljander entrapped, and I don't think he had any way of knowing where that money was going. I'm not sure how to solve the problem, because I definitely think Muslims need to be able to help their fellow Muslims-in-need -- but it's important to be sure that the funds are not getting funneled into terrorist groups.

I've been looking more into that Vermont eugenics project -- and it's scary. They were targeting poor (and often racially-mixed) families who they saw as being a drain on society, and did studies to "prove" that children from these families were more at risk of having physical or mental defects, and of needing state care. The idea being that they would present the results to wealthy people, and persuade them to legislate sterilization of the people in these families. Because of how their "defective" offspring were going to interfere with the financial freedom of the people having to support them.

Certain Vermont families were earmarked for extinction -- only the studies didn't end up proving what the "researchers" had set out to prove. And the original supporters of the project, eventually abandoned it because of all the criticism, and because they hadn't been able to prove anything and it wasn't good science.

So ... it seems like one big difference between this project and what happened in Germany was that here, there was a healthy dose of criticism directed at what was going on in Vermont. America supports free speech, to an extent that I've heard is puzzling to some Europeans, who feel America goes too far in protecting everyone's right to say whatever they really think.

Will Graham

Igor Dybal gives us his own faith statment regarding death, and Iggy says, "In a weird way I am actually looking forward to my own death."

This is troublesome, because someone looking forward to their own may not be too worried about others.

Is that what they taught you in the atheist paradise you couldn't wait to leave behind, Igor?

The one you were so anxious go get out of, you didn't care where they sent you as long as it wasn't there?

I really think you are mental, since you keep spinning like a broken record about the FSM, and using tactics that not only failed in your homeland but ending up ruining it!

Will Graham

Susan, I quite agree with you that God frees us to have minds of our own.

What you don't seem to realize that there are a percentage of people who do not, and never will, excepts God's authority; not that they couldn't be saved, but they won't be.

This was brought home to me by Dan Barker, an outspoken militant atheist who runs the FFRF and has been to Kansas City several times. He puts it quite bluntly, he would rather go to HELL than submit to the authority of a creator. I have had other atheists in Kansas City tell me the same thing.

In a rough analogy, their are children who reject parents, and family members who reject each other.

(By the way, did you get the indication that Bill's post was essentially an atheistic message?)

j in mission

KCFT:

Do you even read these scriptures before you put them out here? My suggestion would be that you read some of the verses before and after the scripture line that you are ridiculing. Determining the context of the line would be very beneficial for you.

Proverbs is a great book because context is not that important. Each statement is pretty stand-alone and hard to misinterpret.

Such as:

“He who trusts in himself is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe” Pr 28:26

I try to remind myself of this one every day:

“Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam; so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out.” Pr 12:14

The wisdom verses are great instruction, whether you believe or not. Letting whatever comes to mind spew out of your mouth (or computer) is not wisdom, for you, me, or for anyone else.

Dolores Lear

All Life as we Know it is made from the GOD Elements, visible and invisible.

With High Tech, Peace Humans can have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Even when a Planet, Solar System, Galaxy, Die, or a Universe Collapses into a Black Hole, High Tech Humans can escape to another Universe.

Equal Peace Virgin Humans, in our Image, Colonized Earth 'in the beginning'. The female was made from the male rib.

For whatever Reason, the Adam and Eve Virgin Clones did start reproducing Children by Body Birth. and Humans have been in Human Bondage and Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth ever since, with the Same GOD Elements on Earth.

So at Judgment Day, most of our GOD Elements, will end up on Earth, to go through the Black Hole Collapse of our Universe. Then they will be used again for LIFE in the New Universe. GODS Elements Never Die.

Humans cannot change their Destiny, when they Fall to Body Birth Reproduction, and lose their High Tech Eternal Physical Virgin Life After Birth.

That does not mean they will never Live Again, because GODs Elements Never Die, or there would not be Universes. And we will have a Turn at the High Tech Virgin Lifestyle Species again.

Jesus a Virgin, showed the Way to Eternal Physical Life After Birth. He went with our High Tech Virgin Ancestors, who Colonized Earth. Jesus also taught Peace. Two assets needed to be part of the Eternal Physical Lifestyle After Birth.

Our Religious Heritage says some Virgins will be Saved from Earth, before it Dies, to be taken to a new Planet.

So whether we Live or Die at Judgment Day, our GOD Elements we are made from, will Always Live in Universes. There is no Permanent Death until GODs Elements Die.

Red Biddy

For those of you who believe in life after death perhaps you could catch a ride on one of Dolores Lear's spaceships. Is it possible to book ahead D ?

The topic of the day being "death' puts me in mind of the old time comedian, W.C. Fields, who although a life long atheist was discovered on his death bed reading the Bible. When asked why, he said he was: "Looking for loopholes, looking for loopholes!"

Will G
Just because Bill didn't mention the possibility of an afterlife, to-day did not make his "message" atheistic.

Not all religious view points have the same view of an afterlife that Christianity does. I've always liked the Judaistic view, that one should make peace with anyone you've had a dispute with before the sun goes down.
To-morrow is too late.....you or your adversary might be dead ! Judaism teaches that one should atone for sins against others HERE AND NOW - not in some imaginary other life. The religion gives you a chance to repent in this life ao not have to face judgement in the next.
There's only one character in the Tanukkah who got transported directly to heaven and that was the Prophet Elijah. This event is celebrated at Seder time with a chair left vacant in case he decides to come back for a visit.
There are of course various theories about heaven and hell among Jewish scholars but it's been my experience that Jews as a whole, are not too concerned about an afterlife or Judgement Day. I've been blessed with two Jewish husbands (one American, one British) so I'm pretty sure about this !

Susan

Will, I don't perceive anything Bill writes as Atheistic. When he talked about the man who'd been dead for 100 years, and would be dead "forever," I took the forever to mean forever from human perspective. Most humans don't even live 100 years, so this man has already been dead longer than most humans have been alive, and will likely continue being dead for hundreds of years after you and I are dead. From human perspective, people who've gone on are no longer available to interact with us in this life -- so death really is death to us on this side.

Last night Just Thinking suggested that I read Mein Kampf -- and I decided this was a good idea since I've never read it, and I really do want to keep increasing my knowledge of the Holocaust, and the different factors that enabled it to happen, so I can be part of the solution in helping to prevent future Holocausts. Of course, I have a feeling Bill has already read Mein Kampf, and apparently Bill STILL sees Christian anti-Judaism as a major factor that enabled the Holocaust to happen, so it seems probable that I will still see it that way, too, even after finishing Hitler's autobiography.

It's exciting to me to learn that I am still ignorant of so many things: it reminds me of all there is to learn, and I love learning. In college some classmates told me they loved having me in class, because I was willing to ask all the questions they themselves were wondering about, but were too scared to ask because they didn't want to display their ignorance. I've never been able to understand the rationale that it's better to "look smart" than it is to learn -- I guess that's because for me, the joy is in learning and not in how I look doing it.

And coming to Bill's blog and reading his essay "Anti-Judaism in Christian History," has led me into a wealth of information that I "should" have already been aware of, but I guess it's like not seeing your nose because it's on your face.

Red Biddy

Susan,
I don't think Europeans are puzzled about American support for free speech. It was a famous Frenchman, after all, the great Voltaire who came up with the comment: "I may not agree with what you say but will defend to the death, your right to say it !"
It was one of your great jurists, Oliver Wendell Holmes, who added the caution that free speech did not give the right to cry "Fire, in a crowded theatre."
That Vermont history on the eugenics movement was scary. I didn't know about Vermont. The worst offenders (I thought) were Califonia and Virginia where they actually sterilized thousands of people.

I checked up on my old country (Britain) and was relieved to find that an MP (member of parliament) had presented a pro-eugenics bill in 1931 but it lost by something like 167 - 62 votes. That was a relief !

Will Graham

Keep in mind, Susan, when you read Hitler's autobiography, that the man was a psychopathic liar.

As far as the Holocaust, neither you nor Bill fully understand the impact of the Eugenics movement on the world in the early decades of the 20th century.

Without that, there could have been no Holocaust.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

J in Mission,

Some great stuff in proverbs - NOTHING THAT A THIRD GRADER OF ANY BELIEF OR NO BELIEF SHOULD NOT KNOW...

HOWEVER ***SOME CRAZY STUFF (STAND ALONE STUFF) FROM PROVERBS***

1:7
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge."

(1:26-28)
God will laugh at your misfortunes, mock you when you are afraid, and ignore you when you ask him for help. And if you seek him, you will not find him,

3:5
"Lean not unto thine own understanding."
Don't try to understand things; just accept whatever the bible and your religious leaders tell you.

(3:9-10)
If you give money to God, he will make you rich and you'll have lots of wine.

(6:12-13)
"A naughty person, a wicked man ... winketh with his eyes."
Naughty, wicked people wink. (Like Sarah Palin)

6:16
God doesn't love everyone. (He hates some liars and gossipers.)

(7:5-27)
A woman that seduces a man is evil -- the man is just an innocent victim.

8:17
"Those that seek me early shall find me." Or will they? Pr.1:28 says just the opposite: "They shall seek me early, but they shall not find me."

10:3
God never allows good people to go hungry or the wicked to become wealthy.

Susan

Red Biddy, I didn't mean to sound as if I thought ALL Europeans were puzzled by or disagreed with our right to free speech -- I had just heard there was some thought that we went overboard with it -- allowing "hate speech" and so on.

How neat that you've been blessed with two Jewish husbands! No wonder you've got such extensive knowledge of Judaic customs. I'd wondered how a Methodist minister's daughter grew up to have your depth of knowledge about virtually everything -- not meaning any insult to Methodists -- just that you seem to have first-hand knowledge of all these other faiths as well as the one you grew up in. Of course I still think you must be an avid reader and world traveller.

Will, thanks for the heads-up about Hitler! About eugenics, reading about what happened in Vermont has just strengthened my belief that prejudice is the catalyst behind programs of mass-killing and mass-sterilization. While the Nazi's focus was on getting rid of the Jews who were seen as the root of all Germany's problems -- the American focus was on stopping the poor from reproducing, because I guess the poor were seen as the root of all America's problems.

Even today, you will hear some conservatives go on and on about welfare recipients, scapegoating them as the reason why America's not doing better, and why more Americans aren't getting ahead. While this isn't annihilation as extreme as mass-genocide or forced sterilization, it still is a form of annihilation. I think this is why Jesus likened calling your brother a fool, to murder. Deciding to "dis" and write off a particular group of people, is a decision to SPEAK hatred and death to those who are different from us, and once we speak it we are more likely to rationalize actually DOING something to make it happen.

Dolores Lear

Red Biddie:
"For those of you who believe in life after death perhaps you could catch a ride on one of Dolores Lear's spaceships. Is it possible to book ahead D ?"

Me:
Hey Red! My Spaceships are not for Life After Death, but for Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships in GODs Universes.

We do not have that High Tech as yet, but with all the Space Knowledge on Earth, NoThing should be Impossible in the Minds of Humans.

If Humans can Pollute a Planet the size of Earth, and cover it with High Tech Pollution and Nuclear bombs on land and sea, why Not Humans travel in Space?

At the Rate we are going with our Killing, I do not think it is possible for the Humans on Earth to make it very far off Earth, before the Judgment Day Fire from our Pollution.

But I would love to be Regenerated by High Tech, like Jesus was to Purebred.

And as you mentioned the Prophet Elijah has already gone, Alive, and also others in the Jewish religion, and other religions record this also.

But we do not get to make reservations. Booking is done at the other End. :)

Will Graham

Susan, it was not just prejudice that was behind the mass killings.

What was considered to be good science was the rationale...of course, you can say that it was not good science, but it was good enough to be in the textbooks for over 40 years. In fact, the book Civic Biology was one such book and was the book that was the subject of William Jennings Bryans railing against Social Darwinism...which later became maligned as "the Scopes Monkey Trial".

(Most people don't realize that Bryan was a liberal two time Presidential Candidate.)

But scientific theories are provisional, and what is considered good in one generation is over overthrown in the next...for example, it was only in the last century that the scientists began to forumlate the "Big Bang" theory that the universe had a beginning. (Which is what the Bible claimed all along.)

But the dominance of the Eugencis movement in the early decades of the last century went far beyond prejudice. People really thought they were doing the right thing by being "scientific" and "improving the race."

Edwin Black is an award winning authors who has proved all of this in detail.

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

Without this, the Holocaust could not have occurred.

Red Biddy

Susan,
I wouldn't spend much time or money on Mein Kamf - it's in the library. Hitler dictated it to Rudolph Hess when he was in prison (circa 1921 - 24) so it reads like an unedited speech ! Rambling, repetitive and very boring ! He did, however, describe the perfect German "Aryan" type as tall, blonde and blue eyed.
The joke to us Brits, at the time of WWII, was how UNLIKE in appearance, Hitler and his bunch of thugs were from this ideal man. They were mostly small, rat faced, dark haired little men except for Herman Goering who was blondish but very obese !

Will G,
Hitler may have been a pathological liar, but when he wrote that he was doing the work of Almighty God in getting rid of the Jews from Europe he wasn't lying ! He was uncomfortably close to that objective when the war ended, you know.
You said "Without this (eugenics movement)the Holocaust could not have occurred."
Oh! Yes it would ! This particular group of people, the Jews, had been the useful "whipping boy" of Christianity for centuries. Every time anything went wrong - the Jews were responsible. Hitler certainly used this particular tool to great effect when Germany was going through difficult economic times. The terms of the Versaille Treaty forced on Germany at the end of World I was largely responsible for this.

Dolores Lear

Will:
"... it was only in the last century that the scientists began to forumlate the "Big Bang" theory that the universe had a beginning. (Which is what the Bible claimed all along.)"

Me:
Genesis 1,2. KJB. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

This is nothing about the Creation of the Universe, but of Life on a Planet with a water environment, that blocked the light of the sun on the deep land area.

The Spirit of God that moved upon the face of the waters, was something like an algae bomb that our High Tech Ancestors used.

Back in the 1960s our Scientists said that was how they would try to Colonize Venus with a watery atmosphere, and the sun does not reach the land area, like Earth was 'in the beginning'.

Genesis goes on with the steps to Colonize a Planet, not make the Universe which had to be here before the Colonizing of Earth.

It took Humans without High Tech Science a long time, to accept Earth was not the center of our Solar System, let alone the Universe.

With High Tech Science, Genesis proves Earth was Colonized by High Tech Humans, in our Image, not GOD the maker of the Elements that make the Universe and All LIFE.

What is the Image of GOD the maker of the Elements were are made from?

But Humans are in the Human Image of the God that made Life on Planet Earth, that Walked, Talked with Humans in their Image.

Hope someone else accept Earth was Colonized one of these days. But if not I am still thrilled to accept all the High Tech Science in the Christian Bible and Myth.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

J in Mission wrote>>>>>>>>Proverbs is a great book because context is not that important. Each statement is pretty stand-alone and hard to misinterpret.

J, just for you... I read some more Proverbs today (see what I posted earlier today) and oh, my gawd!!! - there is a lot to interpret and surely (in Crazy talk of Xians) misinterpret.

********NON SENSICAL PROVERBIAL PROVERBS*******

12:21 - "There shall no evil happen to the just."
Bad things only happen to bad people.
* Come on, just THINK about this....
12:22 Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord." If so, then why did God "put a lying spirit in the mouths" of prophets? (1 Kg.22:23)
(13:4) "The soul of the diligent shall be made fat."
God makes the diligent fat. (Lazy people are skinny and poor.)
13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son:"
Beating your children with a rod is a sure sign of parental love.
13:25 "The belly of the wicked shall want."
How to tell the good from the bad: Good people are fat and get plenty to eat, and wicked are the ones who go hungry.
14:15 "The simple believeth every word."
I wonder if this would apply to the fundamentalists who believe every word of the Bible. But Paul says that we should "believe all things." (1 Cor.13:7)
16:3)
"Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established."
Donald Rumsfeld sent this verse to inspire the troops during the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
(16:4)
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
God made bad people for the pleasure of punishing them.
(16:7)
"When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."
If you are faithful to God, your enemies will be at peace with you. If so, then the author of 2 Tim.3:12 must have been mistaken.
16:31 "The hoary head [gray hair] is a crown of glory."
16:33 All games of chance (gambling) are controlled by God.

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