A changing Christianity: 5-20-09

Today and tomorrow I want to take a 500-year (or so) view of Christianity, kind of a look from 30,000 feet, if you will.

First, I want to reintroduce you to The Great Emergence: How Christianity is Changing and Why, by Phyllis Tickle, a book I mentioned last August in a blog book column, as I link you to this thoughtful analysis of the book by my friend Tom Roberts, editor at large at the National Catholic Reporter.

Then tomorrow I want to reintroduce you to the great reformer John Calvin, the 500th anniversary of whose birth is being celebrated this year.

But first Roberts' piece on Tickle's book.

Tom suggests, drawing on Tickle's work, that "we are squarely in the midst of a grand shakeup that regularly occurs on a bi-millennial basis to institutionalized Christianity." I think both Tickle and Roberts are right, but you sort of have to get up to the 30,000-foot level to see it all.

There are lots of forces at work inside Christianity that are pushing and pulling it in competing directions. The faith is sweeping across Africa and is growing mostly in the Southern Hemisphere. What is growing there is mostly a kind of theologically conservative Christianity that may be quite different in the end from what most people think of when they think about conservative Christianity in the United States now, where it is characterized by theological fundamentalism, or scriptural literalism, and/or by its adoption of a socially conservative agenda on such issues as abortion, gay marriage and so on.

I think the faith moving across Africa and Asia is more focused on reliance on a God who provides for the poor and needy in all situations. Imagine taking Celtic Christianity's emphasis on the presence of God in the ordinary things of our lives and translating it into African or Asian culture. There's not a lot of time or need in those cultures now for nuanced theological debates, given the fragility of life. Rather, there is more need for joyful worship of a God who cares about even "the least of these," to quote the New Testament.

At the same time, what we might call a more liberal impulse is moving through Christianity. That includes the efforts to ordain gays and lesbians to ministry as well as to give women and lay people in general more influence in church life. And it includes an openness to interfaith dialogue that is not built on a need to try to convert people as a starting point.

It's not yet possible to see just what this 500-year flood will drown and what it simply will nourish. But as the globe shrinks and mobility increases, the old-time religion of 19th and 20th Century America inevitably will give way to new forms influenced by Christianities from around the world and new movements (such as the Emergent Church) in this country.

It's really an exciting time for those of us who are Christian. My hope is that we can hold on to the core of our faith even while being open to experiencing new ways of living it out. We'll see.

* * *

MORE CHURCH-STATE ISSUES

This ABC News story about the U.S. military either distributing or destroying Bibles in Afghanistan seemed to raise the same kind of concerns I wrote about recently in discussing Jeff Sharlet's recent article in Harper's Magazine about efforts to create a Christian power center in the U.S. military. No branch of -- or agency representing -- our government should be out promoting one religion over another. Why is that concept so difficult for some people?

Comments

[Dolores Lear]

Referral:
"But, the Great Emergence is not just religious. It is also cultural, technological, and sociological. Of course, context shaped each of the other `great' church transformations as well, and this time is no different."

Me:
We have had a 'great' Lifestyle Transformation for the past 100 years, Supernatural High Tech Science.

The Majority of Humans in the USA, were raised with similar Christian Religions as their Basic Lifestyle.

Since the High Tech Science and Population Explosion for the past 100 years, from 1 Billion Humans to 7 Billion, the Human Lifestyle has changed.

The High Tech Culture Shock happened. All of a sudden we have many Billionaires. Why?

Religious teachings do not Cover Humans as Billionaires, like Rich Man building more barns, and then dying.

Striving for Riches against our Brothers/Sisters of Life, is not the teaching of the Christian Religion about Jesus.

Jesus' Movement was about Equal Sharing of the Earth's Resources, and Celibacy of the Male.

How did Believers get a Religion with massive Church buildings, and Riches in Religion?

Why are the Masses comforted by the message, when they die and go to Heaven they will then receive all these 'things' they needed, in Life on Earth?

Why do Humans Hoard and have Greed, when Equal Sharing of the Earth's Resources and controlling the Population, would give all Humans, the 'things' promised by Religion for Life After Death?

All the Hypocrisy in the Earth's Lifestyle, and The Population Explosion Havenots have grown out of proportion to the Resources?

Equal Life with the Earth's Resources should be, for Equal Humans After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships, not After Death with the Return to Elements in GODs Universe.

[Dolores Lear]

Bill:
"I think the faith moving across Africa and Asia is more focused on reliance on a God who provides for the poor and needy in all situations."

Me:
This has happened in the USA, and all Countries that have Christianity. The Rich rely on God to Take Care of the Poor. That is why they have more resources, more houses, cars, boats, and all the 'things' thought of as the Blessings of God.

Was that because Jesus had nothing, until he went up to Heaven and then had his mansions in the sky, like the rest of the Poor on Earth will get when they die and go to Heaven?

This Comforts the Poor, until they rebel and cause discomfort to the Rich. What do the Billionaires get when they get to Heaven? More of the Same?

All the Blessings that Humans had 'in the Beginning', changed when the Purebred Human Male and Female Clone Helpmeets, began Reproducing Misbred Children by Body Birth.

Then InEquality in All 'things' began, and Humans became Killers of Each Other and their Home Planet., and Greed became the Game of Life on Earth.

Religions began with teachings that the Equality and Paradise Lost, would be regained in 'Heaven' After Death.

In Jesus' time, and when he went up in the air with the 'Father' of Life on Earth, this began another Trinity Religion, only without the Female in the Godhead. Why?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_%27God_moves_in_mysterious_ways%27_come_from_the_Bible

God moves in Mysterious Human Ways, of High Tech Science. Natural Humans could not understand this, but High Tech Humans today Can.

Will Over Reproducing, and Killing Each Other and our Planet, with Nuclear Bombs because of Greed, bring an Equal Lifestyle Conversion Change for Peace on Earth, Good Will to Humans and All Life?

[Susan]

About the Church in Africa and Asia -- I've heard that the underground Church is really strong in China. One Chinese writer (I can't remember who off the top of my head) has actually asked Americans NOT to pray for change in China, because he feels it's their suffering that has made them so strong in their faith and love for the Lord. He doesn't want the Chinese Church to become comfortable like the American Church.

I see your point, Bill, that in dire poverty there is little need for "nuanced theological debates." I also realize that even some Christians here see these kinds of debates as silly: They feel that since there's a spiritual war going on, we need to band together and lay our differences aside. In my old church where there was the issue over public breastfeeding, some seemed upset that this was even an issue: They felt there were more important things to focus on.

That's a tough one, and none of us wants to feel we're "majoring in the minors," and drawing people's attention away from what really needs to be done. But what if issues like the care and feeding of children, and respect for diversity, really ARE majors (as I think they are)? I'm inspired by President Obama's exhortation for us to unite and work together, and somehow I think there's a way to do this without letting go of the things that are important to each of us personally. I'm ready to try.

[Red Biddy]

Susan,
From yesterday: prayer.

You said that I probably wouldn't understand the meaning of prayer to you, as I don't believe in God.

Actually I do. And can certainly empathize with your feelings about it.

Thomas Hardy put it beautifully in his famous poem "God's Funeral".
(1908 - 1910)
"How sweet it was in years far hied
To start the wheels of day with trustful prayer,
To lie down liegely at the eventide
And feel a blest assurance he was there!

I remember those days ! Prayer and belief in a loving God can be very comforting. But
... tricked by our own early dream
And need of solace, we grew self-deceived
Our making soon our maker did we deem,
And what we had imagined, we believed.

Or as Iggy and Cole would put it (rather crudely I think) we have created an "imaginary friend".

[Red Biddy]

a.theist
From yesterday....
I was not being at all critical of JT by my comment that he'd taken the trouble to copy something out of the Bible.
You do get the "wrong end of the stick" sometimes !
My comment was meant as an appreciation .... the subject matter obviously meant a great deal to JT, so much so, that he would take the trouble to copy a long section of the bible to make his point !
absolutely, nothing wrong with that - I do it all the time !

You are trying to make something out of absolutely nothing. Stirring it up in other words. Guess this is how you get your kicks -trying to get a "rise" out of people. Am I right ?

As for your comment about University intellectuals being socialists is this such a bad thing ? I like turning thoughts like that 90 degrees. The opposite of an intellectual socialist would be a stupid conservative wouldn't it ? Or Religious Right might fit. Which side are you on ?

[Just Thinking]

EMERGENCE:

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." The Church is a messenger of good news (Gospel), not an agent of wrath.

Christian legalistic-based wrath is destructive, whether killing heretics or bullying people into staying in abusive marriages. Legalism may produce obedience, but it cannot change the heart toward God. Without a heart to do what is right, then forced piety serves no eternal purpose. The Church's role is to teach who God is, so that people can choose, and then to teach those who want to follow how to obey.

More and more the Church is discovering that it is not to be an instrument of God's wrath. The Church must help those along the road, not simply burden people with legalism. The Church does not determine who is in the Church and who is not; God does!!! I think that still comes as a shock to many Christians that God's inclusion in the Body of Chirst, which is the Church, is not determined by any earthly institution: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."

If God respects one who seeks Him, then so must the Church. The role of the Church is to gather. "He who does not gather with me, scatters." It is God who places people in the Body of Christ, and the Church should not lose any. That is being an imitator of Christ. Indeed, Jesus said, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

[Susan]

One valuable thing I think our church and nation can/should absorb from people in Africa and Asia, is the way that people in many of these cultures regard children. They seem to value a continuance of the sense of plenty that the baby had while in the womb, in that mothers in these cultures are usually quick to put their babies to their breasts in response to their first signs of hunger, rather than letting them get frustrated and start crying. Unlike many Western parents, they don't seem to see any value in letting babies cry a bit to build character or strengthen lungs.

And yet -- the people who come here from these parts of the world seem to have incredible strength and perseverance, often working long hours to acheive the American dream. I'm thinking it may have something to do with them getting their needs met so instantaneously in the early years.

And I'm starting to see the conventional Western attitude that "it won't kill that baby to cry a minute while you find a private place to feed him!" -- or as one mother in the church nursery told me when I rushed to pick up her crying child, "Set him DOWN! He's not too good to cry" --

As I was saying, I'm starting to see this "toughen the babies up"-attitude as possibly the root of our generation's seeming-fragility in comparison to the underlying strength and optimism of many Africans and Asians. Maybe it has something to do with their knowledge, when they do experience deprivation, that it's beyond their parents' control and not something their parents are forcing on them to "build character."

[Susan]

In my last post I forgot to tie in how attitudes toward children, and beliefs about how they should be raised, really are deeply-rooted in our theology or world view. This includes semingly "minuscule" issues like "should a baby get instant gratification, or does it 'build character' for him to have to cry a bit before getting nursed?"

It really does boil down to our views of human nature. I think it was Saint Augustine who saw it as sinful the way tiny babies "lusted" after their mothers' breasts. Now I'm wondering about African and Asian cultures, and whether Christianization has introduced a more negative view of newborn human nature, and caused them to be less-nurturing toward their little ones.

OR, if it's more likely that the loving, matter-of-fact way that mothers in these cultures simply meet their babies' needs without regard to schedules or "building character," actually has a powerful impact on some of the Western missionaries, as it has on one pastor I met. He said he was preaching in a hut in Africa, heard a baby cry and then suddenly get quiet, and then looked up and saw all these mothers with their breasts out, feeding their babies. He felt an instant of shock, followed by the realization, "So THAT'S what they're for!"

I think I'll look into this more, to see whether this is an area where West infuences East more, or vice-versa, or a combination of both.

[Dolores Lear]

J.T.
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Me:
How did Jesus teach the Way to be Saved from the World? His Teachings was Celibate Males, and Sharing All Resources Equally, and not to Kill or even carry a knife.

This was the Way to Peace on Earth. I do not remember him making blood sacrifices.

Did he say he was to be a Blood Sacrifice for the World? Or was this worked into the Christian Religion, from the Trinity religions in Rome and Egypt, that many Jewish Christians lived among?

The Jewish Christian with One God was worked into a Trinity Religion.

www.allaboutfollowingjesus.org/why-was-jesus-a-sacrifice-faq.htm

Did Humans make Jesus a Blood Sacrifice, to make the Abraham Sacrifice of the blood of the lamb, void?

http://www.allaboutfollowingjesus.org/gods-forgiveness.htm

It seems that most Man-made Religions have similar sacraments as and Ancient Religions and Myths. Although since Jesus, Animals Sacrifice is not done for Religion, unless Jewish Kosher Animals are Blood Sacrifices.

So far, Blood Sacrifices have been made in War and Starvation, of Human Males, Females and Children all over the Planet.

Why is at least Half the Population on Earth, who are Jews, Christians, and Muslims with the Same Lord God, Killing Each Other, and their Home Planet? For Blood Sacrifices to God?

When did the Lord God say to Kill Humans, for a Blood Sacrifice? We are taught from a Child, God 'said' Thou Shalt Not Kill.

So there is a lot of Killing going on, on God's Planet of Life, by God's Children. Why? To Die and go to 'Heaven' to be with God?

[SilverSmith]

Interesting piece in the NCR. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, I am interested to see what the future holds but I have some expectations. Because the Church has never changed any of its fundamental doctrines and because it centers around parishes and Masses, I think that Catholicism in the future will look like it does now, 100 years ago, and 2000 years ago. There are aesthetic differences and other ancillary modes that may vary, but traditional Catholicism is always centered around monastery or parish life which is what the NCR seems to speak of as being a future sort of thing. Well, I know that some parishes are in disarray, but seminaries are growing in conservative areas and people serious about their catholicism usually find themselves with a more traditional priest and liturgy. I guess I am saying that for Catholics, community has always been a big part of our life and it is only until recently in history that Catholic communities have broken down. So, for me, the past is the future and I am glad to see it coming.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

The damndest thing happened this morning. I woke up and attended my Weds I-Hop breakfast. This is because last night, I prayed to Bugs Bunny so I would wake up and go to my breakfast. Holes in your pockets can serve you well.

You Xs who have been belittling my RR efforts are slipping into a hole. KC Shuffle, guys. That’s what it is always about. You say, I believe because I do.

Well, I breathe because I do. Science will discover why, not your personal salvation -all knowing -all planning god.

Which judgment day are you talking about, JT? At work, when I was younger, I believe it was 1975, people were moaning about the end of the world was nearing. Each day I told them I would see them the next day and guess what? It never happened, and I continued to see them daily until I quit. Just like the judgment day hoax.

Spouting bible verses is only repeating words people wrote a long time ago. I cannot understand how so many people don’t understand this.

Hey Iggy. Looks like you are part of a miracle, a prayer answered.

I have a lot of people praying for me. Every time some of these people say they are still praying for me -I repeat, “And it’s ‘still’ not working.”

I liked your little piggy story, JT, I will have to agree with Red on that one. Never happened and if it did why is god so wasteful? And cruel…?

If god is all loving why did he give us sexual pleasure and, lust then tell us it is wrong unless we follow certain unnatural laws. Maybe it should be painful like childbearing, then there will be less sex. There is no room for supernaturalism in a natural world.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Red Biddy]

Susan,
You said ... our attitudes toward children are "deeply rooted in our theology" Sometimes, however, these religious attitudes can lead to serious child endangerment and even early death of the children.
In the news, this week there is a mother on trial for allowing her daughter die of untreated juvenile diabetes and another, who has gone into hiding with her 13 year old son, to prevent him getting chemo therapy for Hodgkins Lymphoma. Hodgkins has a 98% cure rate if caught early. Both mothers are very religious and I'm sure they love their children dearly but their fundamentalist simplistic faith in the power of prayer has completely clouded their judgement. The boy, homeschooled by his mother, is completely illiterate.
You can check all of this out on Pharyngula (one of my favorite blogs) although it was reported on CNN news last night.
There have been many cases like the ones reported this week particularly with Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses. What I think is so wicked about these kind of situations, is that if, or more likely, when, the child dies, the parent is likely to feel that they weren't praying hard enough !

[Red Biddy]

Susan continued....
Of course, there is a lot more at stake in these situations. Should the government intervene in order to protect a child from its own parents ? Would such interference be a breach of our precious freedom of religion.
Let's hope there is a more "liberal" impulse moving through Christianity, as Bill said to-day. It's going to be slow going in this country though, while the Culture War continues. Using words like liberal, socialist, intellectual as insults isn't helping much to unite people.
Like you I'm hopeful that having elected an intellectual, liberal and possible socialist (certainly a community organizer) to the White House, things are going to change here, and soon.

[Red Biddy]

Dolores.
Check out the latest fossil find our High Tech scientists are gurgling over ! It's perfect. Complete skelton of a lemming like creature, 45 million years old ! It has proper finger nails not claws. Google are even using it as their logo this week.

Sorry, I forgot you don't support evolution. Those of us who do are very excited about this. It's probably not the "missing link" we've been looking for but close !

[Susan]

Red Biddy, I'm sorry to hear about those children not getting the care they need. I know these kinds of situations are highly-publicized, which makes them seem like "the norm" among Christian folks -- but it really isn't, not even among Pentecostals.

Even with my reservations about the medical system, I do know there are illnesses, injuries, and other health-concerns that I need to seek professional help with, especially when it involves my precious children. And I birthed my second child at home -- so I definitely believe God gave our bodies the ability to deal with a lot of stuff quite well without interference.

I tend to see doctors as "backup," or a resource to turn to when we're at a loss, though we do take our girls to well child checkups. It's pretty clear to most parents when their children need medical help -- and even though I know homeschoolers, homebirthers, and certain kinds of Christians tend to get labeled as being more likely to neglect their kids' medical needs, this is simply not true for most of us. But of course it's the bad stuff that makes it into the news.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Why did Christ have to die for our sins? Why couldn’t have he lived for our sins? And who were the 500 who saw the jesus miracle? Once again, words written by people in a very old book. This is 2009. Time to pull the covers off your head. The boogey man isn’t there either.

We are born once and die once. Where do you get this rebirth?

A theist your ‘copying’ remarks yesterday: “Every time you read it or say it, you make another copy in your brain. Every time you read it or say it, you make another copy in you brain.” This is how, in part, Xs are hypnotized to believe. Place “in god we trust” on our money, in our pledge, repeat boring prayers, in jesus’ name we pray, on and on and on…I find this funny and sad people choose to self inflict such pain and delusion.

I too, Susan, understand why you want a prayer to work and a god to be out there for you. Mushy poems or the crude truth is what we are left with. Life in the natural world. I enjoy such wonders you explained yesterday about the universe.

Ayn Rand on Religion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTmac2fs5HQ&feature=PlayList&p=05B1EBC805EC9AC1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22

Ayn Rand Phil Donahue Interview Part 1 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzGFytGBDN8

Peace For the sake of Goodness Cole

[Just Thinking]

Cole,

Why did Jesus have to die for our sins? As we watch you learn more and more, and become increasily angry and bitter with each passing post, isn't it obvious that Jesus was going to end up dying for the sins of others? Jesus accepted that fate, because the message of grace that He brought was that important.

You could see the seething anger build among people who wanted the authority to define "goodness" for themselves, and who wanted the power to order people around accordingly. We can see your anger building in the same way, Cole, against the very mention of something beyond this physical Universe. You are clearly irritated, agitated and angered at the mere mention of absolute authority and a judgment day by God, where everyone will be held accountable.

Those who hold steadfastly to self-righteousness such as you, Cole, are angered by the light that Christ shines to expose things that are not so good. "Goodness" isn't yours to define, Cole. Nobody likes having their sins pointed out, which is precisely what the light of Christ does. Christ would have been killed for our sins, no matter what time or what place that he would have appeared. His death is part of the message: God uses Christ's murder to expose the extreme depravity that so undeservedly hates the real light of goodness.

John 3
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

[Dolores Lear]

Cole.
"There is no room for supernaturalism in a natural world."

Me:
We are not in the Natural world today, with our High Tech Science. That is supernatural to Humans 100 years ago.

Our High Tech Human Ancestor Society also is not in the Natural World. They 'Evolved' up to a High Tech Birth of Equal Male and Female Clones, that Reproduce Human Male and Female Clones in the Lab, similar to how our High Tech Science Humans reproduce Animal same sex Clones.

I do accept that live Evolved somewhere out there on another Planet, from Life Elements up to the Human Race, with Animalistic Reproduction.

But they did 'Evolve' on up to Asexual Male and Female Clones reproduced from the male rib. And Colonize Planets with Humans 'in their Image'.

I have not heard our Scientists project this as yet, but why should it be impossible if Humans can make Nuclear Bombs?

These Writings and Myths, about Supernatural happenings in our Past, have to have some event that caused the Clones on Earth, to 'Fall' to Animalistic Reproduction Again.

And it is wonderful that we get to be in the Generation that High Tech Reproduction has returned to the Human Society.

But, instead of using our High Tech for Eternal Life After Birth, we have Toxic Pollution, and Nuclear Bombs on land and sea. Why?

What good has the runaway male lust done for Earth, except to make a Population explosion from 1 billion to 7 billion Killing Humans with Hate and Inequality for All.

Do our Scientists even Know what the Population limit is for our Spaceship Earth?

It is time to face a few facts, as to why there are so many starving and homeless humans besides saying they do not want to work. There are not enough jobs to go around.

So there is an answer for supernatural Peace Humans on a Planet, instead of natural born killers, that have Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth, until they Kill their Home Planet.

[Dolores Lear]

Red Biddie.
"Check out the latest fossil find our High Tech scientists are gurgling over ! - It's probably not the "missing link" we've been looking for but close !"

Me:
I accept the Noah/Atlantis Flood was a Planetary Flood that lasted over a years. The fountains of the deep broke open, and the planet was under water.

All types of destruction was done to our Planet at that time, and only the life in boats that could last for over a year were saved.

And all the bones, etc., were all set up in our Top Strata, as the tidal waved receded and buried some of the life in new face of Planet Earth. The Continents were also divided at that time.

I accept that Atlantis experimented with animals that made some of the larger animals. Our scientists in the 1970s on, experimented with animals also. One attached a human ear on a mouse. But we do not so far make animals larger, or at least I have not read about it.

But nothing is impossible with genetic exploration, even making a female from the male rib.

So I still have not seen anything yet with our Scientists. that can do what our High Tech Ancestors did on Earth 'in the beginning', or the Noah/Atlantis Society.

But I love to chat about all types of subjects and tie High Tech into the mix.

Thank you for your posts.

[a.theist]

Just Thinking's post today at 06:55 PM, covers it exactly (again)

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

I am not angry Jt. I am amused and a bit bewildered by your claims of supernaturalism. Your bible is full of anger. Your god killed his only son – I thought we were all god’s children.

Your bible god created us with freewill then punishes us, even for thought crime, if there isn’t enough info for some of us thinkers.

How can I be angry by something that does not exist much less what this imaginary thing is going to do to me after your god DESTROYS THIS WORLD WITH FIRE! Such a loving thought. Topics like this are mentioned in 1000s of myth gods/goddesses.

Goodness ‘is’ for me to define, JT. I have my own brain and I choose not to believe in myth, but the natural world. Probability agrees with the real world.

Not another bible verse. Evil, murder and sin: such ugly thoughts. Our civilization – maybe slowly – is moving away from this. I still think jesus living sends out a better message.

Which brings me to today’s subject. Religion will continue to change until there is not a need for it. Fairness will win, is winning, and religion will never be the same. The evolution of religions is natural as is all forms of evolution.

Dinosaurs Evolutionary Findings
http://www.molecularstation.com/science-news/2008/09/dinosaurs-evolutionary-findings/

New Evolution Findings About Humanity, not Races
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/12/new-evolution-f/

http://publications.nigms.nih.gov/findings/

FINDINGS
Message in What We Buy, but Nobody’s Listening
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/science/19tier.html

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[a.theist]

Some Red Biddy quotes -

I think Iggy (judging from old postings I've read) has done the "cause" of atheism (at least on this small blog) a disservice. I barely know the guy but he seems to have upset as many freethinkers as he has Xians posters due to his posts about spaghetti monsters and references to Hannibal etc,, Barely a day goes by when his name doesn't appear here in one form or another.

****

I'm glad he's not posting here anymore as his silly rhetoric made no sense half the time!

****

I've always supported the educational function of the free thought "movement”. We should try educate people, rather than just Bible Bash which admittedly is a lot of fun, but kind of like shooting ducks in a barrel ! And it does p..s a lot of people off as Iggy did !

****

The sheep is the most stupid animal God ever created. They won't follow anybody and have to be barked at and have their heels nipped by a good Collie sheepdog before they will move at all.

****

JT's "Gospel Message" appears to be the unlikely story of the Healing of the Demon Possessed man, which he took the trouble to completely copy out of his bible.

[a.theist]

Red Biddy quotes cont’d

I think it is obvious who he thinks is the demon-possessed man in our neighborhood!

Never happened.
So the message is?
****

You are trying to make something out of absolutely nothing. Stirring it up in other words. Guess this is how you get your kicks -trying to get a "rise" out of people. Am I right ?

As for your comment about University intellectuals being socialists is this such a bad thing? I like turning thoughts like that 90 degrees. The opposite of an intellectual socialist would be a stupid conservative wouldn't it? Or Religious Right might fit. Which side are you on?

Three comments

1. Wouldn’t that be 180 degrees?
2. Who gets their kicks trying to get a rise out of people?
3. Cole just doesn’t get it.

[Susan]

Red Biddy -- that's exciting about the lemur-like skeleton that was found. I'm assuming this was among the fossils found in the Scottish cave? Cole, interesting articles about dinosaurs and people.

By the way, this is probably old news to most people here -- but I just came across the Wedge Document from a few years back, which was an internal memo circulated among some Intelligent Design proponents before it got leaked to the internet. It really makes Intelligent Design look like nothing more than a plan to combat evolution and science, and control society. Though of course there are probably some ID proponents who took no part in this and are appalled that anyone would devise such a controlling plot.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/wedge.html

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

A theist, I do get it. Life is to live. The best we can. And we all know what that means. If you don’t, then you are listening to false prophets.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole