Facing up to differences: 4-18/19-09

A bit over a month ago, I wrote this entry about "The Faces of Jesus" exhibit on display at the Broadway Church at 39th Terrace and Broadway in Kansas City. (The painting above of Jesus brooding over Jerusalem is among those on display there.)

The other evening, I went back to the exhibit with a study group to which my wife and I belong. The church's co-pastors, Paul Smith and Marcia Fleischman, met us and gave us some guidance about the project before our group walked through.

Later we all came back to our house and talked about the art we had seen and what it had meant to us.

What a fascinating experience. It told me again that no two people see sacred art in the same way, perhaps just as no two people see anything in the same way.

The art that one person found engaging or moving another didn't like at all. And when more than one person mentioned a particular work, the reason for the mention was almost inevitably different. Some people saw things in the art that others missed altogether.

I've been thinking about what these varied reactions to the approximately 200 works of art in the display mean, and my tentative conclusion is that we need to be able to give each other space and permission to have religious experiences that mean nothing to us or that even repel us. I'm not talking about tolerating destructive behavior such as terrorism because it may have religious motivations. Rather, I'm talking about the wide range of authentic religious experiences that may be quite different from what we ourselves have had.

It's foolish to expect that each us need will react exactly the same way to religious rituals or the reading of sacred scriptures. Indeed, such uniformity would impoverish us. At the same time, I think we need to get over any sense of fear we might have when others have reactions different from our own.

* * *

FAITH IN CUBA

As the United States begins searching for a new relationship with Cuba, this report offers some thoughts about what role religion there is playing. Although American diplomats must not promote one religion or another, they should stand for religious liberty everywhere and, thus, they must know what is happening on the ground in each country. For the latest annual report from the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom on countries around the world click here. Then, for Cuba, scroll down to page 215, where you will read that "religious belief and practice continue to be tightly controlled in Cuba."

* * **

P.S.: Less than a week left before the walk. If you want to sponsor me in the AIDSWalk KC 2009 edition to raise funds for the AIDS Service Foundation, click here. I do this as part of the AIDS Ministry at my church. And thanks.

 

Comments

[Will Graham]

The reports on religion in Cuba and in officially atheistic countries around the world are fascinating.
Its always been impressive that even with all the power of the state behind them...with techniques of propaganda, forced drug "medication", torture, and even mureder...the officially atheistic governments have not been able to destroy Christianity.

In fact, as with the Soviet Union and the eastern European countries they have self destructed.

From Nero to Lenin, Trotsky, and even Castro it has always been the case, but some people are not capable of seeing it.

[Dolores Lear]

Bill: "perhaps just as no two people see anything in the same way."

Heterosexual Body Birth, does Reproduce Each Person Different, as to Who their Parents are for their Genetics.

And the Location on Planet Earth where they are Born, for their Environment. Genetics and Environment does Form each Human Identity.

Train up a Child in the Way they should go, and when they are Grown, they will not depart from it. This is the pattern in all Cultures, Religious or Secular.

Generation Body Birth, Death, and Rebirth, Reproduces Human Family Genetics, Race, Creed, and Government Environments.

Each person in a family, has different Genetic and Physical Features, and Life Interaction Experiences.

Each person's Reactions to family and their environment, does influence how they will Live their Life.

Why are there so many Different Lifestyles for Humans, on one Planet? Which Race, Government, Creed, and Family Values is the Correct One?

What is Life is All About on Earth? What is the Correct Lifestyle Of Humans on their Home Planet?

Hate, Greed, InEquality, InHumanity, Killing Each Other, War, Pollution and Nuclear Bombs on land and sea? Why?

Humans now have High Tech Science Knowledge, and Know a Planet can be Colonized, and Human Life can be Created/Cloned in a High Tech Lab.

That Would Result in a Different Lifestyle, than Heterosexual Body Birth Families.

When Everyone was Created Equal in a High Tech Lab, with No Family or Environment Hangups and Diseases, One Equal Society Would Create an Equal Sharing, High Tech Peace Lifestyle for All.

High Tech Eternal Peace Human Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships, is possible for Humans.

Our Example: the Peace 'Father/Mother' Human Clones of Life on Earth, Angel/Astronauts in our Human Image, and the Prince of Peace, Jesus.

[Just Thinking]

The painting:

As Jesus looked over Jerusalem, he wept. The Jews did not recognize that the Kingdom of God was not an earthly kingdom established by the sword, but an eternal one that nobody could enter unless they were born again of water and the Spirit. As Jesus looked out over Jerusalem, he saw the destruction of the temple and the seige that was to come. Jesus knew that Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed because they would try to establish their kingdom by the sword. They didn't recognize the true Kingdom from God. Jesus wept.

Luke 19:41-44
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."
-----------------
People see different things in art and in God's word, based on their own desires. Some want to follow God and live in His Kingdom. Others selfishly desire a kingdom where they are king.

There are still those who want an earthly kingdom established by the sword. Apocalyptic nonsense.

[Dolores Lear]

Jesus wept over Jerusalem, as Christians weep over the decline of Christians in the USA.

Christians came to the USA with a Sword, and lived by the Sword, and did not bring the Peace Kingdom of God to America, or anywhere else on the Planet.

Jesus' Movement was a Passive Movement, with Equality, and Shared Resources In Common for All.

And Practiced Male Celibacy. Why? Is that what the Kingdom of God is, so male and female are Equal, and do not Overpopulate a Home Planet, and Kill Each Other?

Jesus' Peace Kingdom could not be Understood, without High Tech Science Reproduction, like the Adam and Eve Colony.

The Peace Kingdom in Heaven After Death, is What? Is this what Jesus Taught and Lived? Jesus, a Celibate went to Heaven Alive in a Physical Body, and is still Alive after 2000 years.

What exactly was Jesus' message, and Lifestyle?

Do Humans have to Die, and be Reborn Again and Again, in Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth, until they finally reach Male Celibacy Knowledge, with High Tech Science for Reproduction, and Peace on Earth and in Spaceships?

Eternal Physical Life like Jesus has, is for Purebred Human High Tech Celibate Males and Females, on Planets and in Spaceships.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Yesterday:

Jt when I speak of being offended I am saying this, “why be weak? Needy? Why let the little stuff bother you? Your belief weakens people’s actions. If you rely on imaginary consequences there is no reality. We have secular laws to protect basic human needs like protection from physical harm. When we are strong in our personal convictions words don’t mean squat. If you teach people to rely on supernaturalism you are pretending. You can’t pretend yourself out of a situation. Teaching people to stand on their own without a carrot on a stick is the only way. It all needs to start with the children. Right now it’s tough with adults. Because so many have been taught there is an imaginary all-powerful friend who will help you. That thing is not there. You preaching this belittles anything else you try to help with. How can you trust the actions of the delusional?

Some of your statements have some validity, but when you believe in the make believe and want strings attached to this, it voids all charity.

We can only help each other if we start we some common denominators. Life is short. Life is in the real world. Life is not make-believe. You can’t seem to stop holding onto ancient beliefs that get us nowhere. Continued

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Continued: We do things because we want to. I don’t see life doom and gloom. I see life as good. Lets start teaching this to children and it will be. If people say it is, it is. Do you understand it is up to us, people, to make these choices. I think you want to be good. You just don’t know how. Forget the supernatural stuff, live now in the real world for goodness and teach the young to do the same and only then will the world be more tolerant. Stop with all the imaginary rules. Move ahead in sciences and education and life will work its own way through naturally….that is how we got here…naturally. I think it worked out great. I’m alive!. So are you.

Nature is not good or evil, nature is not fair or unfair. It simply is…and we have to adapt to the real world in order to live in it, and we have, or we wouldn’t be alive. If people hadn’t bought into the supernatural world we would be living much longer than we do and would be much smarter. That is a fact. Call it Clinton thinking or whatever you want. I live in the real world and you do not.

All you high schoolers…take a cold shower.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

I have never wanted an atheistic country, so everything you grasp at Will is for nothing. You are just making noise.

Jt, I know we live in the real world. Why do a lot of Xs want to ignore that and plan for the impossible instead of living peacefully and respectively.

Reversal racism will not work here people. It’s another excuse for intolerance.

Why are so many Xs so obsessed with death. Is this insecurity, fear? No wonder your god is demanding, murderous, and jealous. This is god, why would he have these qualities? What good he supposedly does is so sporadic and unfair It’s impossible to believe. Why would any rational human believe in this?

Jt writes: The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

What wonderful thoughts, jt. This is weird thinking.

He continues: People see different things in art and in God's word, based on their own desires. Some want to follow God and live in His Kingdom. Others selfishly desire a kingdom where they are king. There are still those who want an earthly kingdom established by the sword. Apocalyptic nonsense.

This kind of nonsense holds society back….Lets move on and have a better life while we are here. It is such a brief time.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org]

JT wrote: "People see different things in art and in God's word, based on their own desires. Some want to follow God and live in His Kingdom. Others selfishly desire a kingdom where they are king."

Of course those are not the only options. I'm an atheist because I'd like to think that the universe makes some sort of sense, even if I personally don't understand it all. God, miracles and abstract art don't make any sense to me, generally speaking. Once in a while there is abstract art I can appreciate but only if there is some demonstration of technical talent. I figure if I can replicate it with my feet while blindfolded, why should I be impressed?

Now that doesn't mean I prefer realism, necessarily. My favorite artist was M.C. Escher, especially his "Relativity" which you can view online at:
http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/%7Ebedir/CS411/Images/relativity.jpg

I guess that's ironic because on the surface his images seem to "make no sense" because they are impossible...but it's fun staring at them for long periods trying to figure them out..and they do all have a certain logic to them. In the case of Relativity, it's that there are 3 worlds combined in one so you get three different perspectives in one frame.

[Susan]

Bill, you make a good point about each of us seeing different things in art, worship, and the reading of the sacred Scriptures. I think you're right that we need to allow one another the freedom to experience things differently.

Just Thinking wrote, "People see different things in art and in God's word, based on their own desires. Some want to follow God and live in His kingdom. Others selfishly desire a kingdom where they are king."

JT, rather than doing your aaahhhooommm-thing and assuming what you are saying here, I'm going to point-blank say that it comes across like you are responding to Bill's assertion that there's more than one way to interpret things, by saying, "Yes, there's more than one -- there's TWO. The good way and the evil way." If I'm reading you wrong, feel free to correct me on it. If you can just tell me what you really mean without insulting me, I'll be impressed.

Cole, when you say that we can only help each other when we start with some common denominators, are you saying that everyone needs to throw out their belief in God, or simply that we all need to be able to help one another without attaching strings to the help (i.e. without trying to convert the other person to our beliefs, which of course would include your own belief in Atheism, if the help is really coming without strings attached, right?).

In answer to DW from last night, consent means that no one is pressured into doing anything they don't want to do. I see your point that just because there's consent, that doesn't automatically mean our actions are pleasing to God. Two people can consent to sex without there being any love. However, sex where one person isn't consenting (or is too young to be able to give informed consent), is definitely not loving sex, and is definitely not pleasing to God. So consent is obviously an essential part of loving sex.

In my post last night, I wasn't saying that consensual sex is always pleasing to God: I was saying that I believe loving relationships are always pleasing to God. I don't even believe we can love apart from God, so where there is love, there is God (even if someone doesn't believe in God, I still believe that someone who chooses love truly is choosing God).

[Dolores Lear]

Susan:
"I still believe that someone who chooses love truly is choosing God)."

Me:
No offense Susan.

So what is Gods Love? Where is Gods Love in Evidence? How many levels are there in Gods Love?

Is the Love Humans have for God, Spouses, Children and Pets, Friends, Church, Government etc., God's Love?

The Love of Food, Alcohol, Smokes, Drugs, Guns, Pollution, Weapons of Massive Destruction, Hate and Sex, are all Harmful for Humans. Is this from God's Love, or Flesh Lust?

When did Flesh Lust, begin on Earth? From Evolution? Or did God Reproduce Defective Humans, in their Human Image?

Lust for Things and Food, Kills Humans and Animals. Lust for Power over our Brothers/Sisters of Life, Kills All Life Species, and our Eco System.

What Does our Planet covered with Pollution of All Kinds, including Atom/Nuclear Waste and Bombs Prove? God's Love, or Flesh Lust?

Human Body Birth has Evolution Generation Life, Death and Rebirth, until Humans Kill their Planet.

God, the Human 'Us' in Genesis, have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

High Tech Humans did Colonize Earth, and are Still Alive Physically. Jesus a Human, is with them.

Visible Life After Death, Returns to GODs Invisible Life Elements, to be used again for Visible Life.

Eternal High Tech Human Physical Life on Planets and in Spaceships, is what the Christian Religion should teach today, with our High Tech.

And teach the Return of our Ancestors and Jesus, not God. What is Literal Eternal Life After Death, in Heaven with God?

GOD is the Source of the Visible Living Human Elements, and the 'Dead' Human Elements Do return to GODs Invisible Living Elements in our Universe.

GODs Elements, Visible and Invisible, and High Tech Humans After Birth, do have Eternal Life.

[Will Graham]

"Cole" tells us that "words don't mean squat", but continues to slander believers as "delusional", "psychotic" and child abusers.

He then tells us there is no God to tell us what to do or how to live...and then proceeds to turn around and tell us what to do and how to live.

He wants us to stop with our "imaginary rules" while he lays out HIS view of the rules!

How deliciously atheist! It never fails to amuse! LOL!

But seriously, "Cole", it's a good thing that you don't want an atheistic country, because you aren't going to get it and there are many who would NEVER submit to it.

[Red Biddy]

What exactly is an AUTHENTIC religious experience if everyone having one is having a different experience ? Who decides which experience is authentic. They can't all be can they ?
The article on Cuba, Bill referred to, mentioned that there were 50 different religious groups on the island. 50 ! I'm sure every one of these disparate groups thinks they are the only "authentic" one and there's the problem isn't it ?
In the Cuba article a situation with a Jehovah's Witness boy refusing to do military service, was mentioned as an example of religious practice being tightly controlled in Cuba. Witnesses don't "do" birthdays, military service, donate blood or salute the flag, of whichever country they happen to be in. I guess these are "authentic" religious experiences to THEM but they sure aren't to others.
Will Graham has the view that atheistic governments have failed to destroy Christianity. I think it is quite clear though, that Christianity, in fact all religions for that matter do a pretty good job to doing it themselves over this problem of authenticity !
When the U.S.S.R broke up and religion (mostly the old Russian Orthodox Church) was allowed to regroup, missionaries of all kinds, Jehovahs Witnesses, evangelists, Gideon Bible groups etc were refused entrance to Russia ! guess they weren't authentic enough.

[Susan]

Red Biddy, if two different people can have different experiences looking at the same painting, then why can't two different people have different experiences relating to the same God?

I realize the problem comes in where you have all these different people and groups claiming that their way is the one right way -- and you're right that they can't all be right.

How about this hypothesis: Maybe sometimes people start out with a unique and genuine experience with God -- but then they try to take over and superimpose that experience on everyone else, tell everyone else what they need to do in order to get the same experience, and also tell them they are "missing God" if they fail to have it, rather than allowing others room to experience God in their own way, even through connecting with nature and the universe if they're uncomfortable thinking in terms of God.

If my hypothesis is true, then this would mean that most or all of the world's religions started out as genuine encounters with God -- and the harm came in when they were turned into organized religions in order to control others, and maybe in an attempt to manipulate God into "visiting" His people more because they are following the right rules.

I've had a similar experience -- not with trying to turn an encounter with God into a religion, but with trying to follow a bunch of rules in order to keep on having an experience with God that I'd had while fasting one time. I thought if I could just get myself on a schedule of fasting so many meals a week, this would help me get even closer to God. But the fasting schedule actually made me a lot more earthly-minded and obsessed with eating, rather than getting me more focused on God.

I think religion may have a similar effect on people, and actually cause people to focus more on fleshly desires -- whether for gratification, money, or control -- especially if they're into prosperity teaching, which says your wealth is a reflection of your spirituality.

[Susan]

Dolores, you ask good questions about God's love, and how it's in evidence, and how many levels there are.

Obviously I'm just a learner and an explorer like you. I will tell about one evidence of God's love that comes to mind.

I saw a talk show years ago, where a mother whose son had been killed by a drunk driver shared about where she went from there. She was called to the hospital, and learned that her son had been out drinking with his best friend, and then they were in an accident which was the friend's fault, and her son was killed. She was told that his friend was there and did she want to talk with him?

She knew in that instant that she had a crucial choice to make: Her son's life had just been destroyed -- did she now want to go and destroy someone else's child?

I'm not sure if the mother could have literally "destroyed" the other young man -- I guess it would have depended on his degree of sensitivity, how much other support he had, how much strength of character, and so on. But it's irrelevant because she decided she didn't want to destroy him.

She and her husband went to see him, and told him they forgave him -- but that they wanted him to go to high schools and tell his story to other young people, to help prevent this tragedy from happening to others. And he did and at the time that they visited the talk show, he was still close to these people who forgave him and gave him the chance to try to make amends.

I feel like their forgiveness goes beyond nature -- to some extent, everything we parents do for our kids, can be explained by our natural desire for our own offspring to thrive. But these parents had every natural reason for wanting to make the other boy's life a living hell (even knowing that there were other times when the boys got drunk and their son drove ... some parents know things like this, and will still heap blame on the other young person -- it's just a natural instinct to feel rage at anyone who harms our young) ...

They had every natural reason NOT to forgive, but they decided to go ahead and do what they could to help this young man turn his life around, and to help him to actually have a good life and future happiness.

[Just Thinking]

Red,

Each person can have a different experience relating to God, just as two different people can have a different experience relating to you. John Wesley based Methodism on God's Word, on tradition, on experience, and on reason. That is how Wesley proposed validating understanding--it should align with all of these. Does it contradict God's Word? Does it contradict tradition? Does it contradict your own experience? Does it contradict your reasoning? Each person's journey with God is individual, but must be guided as well, so that it does not become deluded.

God is a personal God, and He relates to each person individually. He may ignore a particular sin in one person, but not in another. It depends on His purpose at the time for the specific individual. For example, white lies may not be a current issue between you and God if He sees that you're wanting to kill your neighbor. God deals with people where they are.

It's not my place to usurp the role of God by telling someone what they must do right now. I have no authority, but only obligations:
**It is my place to stand between victim and victimizer.
**It is my place to warn if I see impending disaster.
**It is my obligation to not support destruction.
For example, I must not support destructive addictions such as alcoholism. Harsh as it may seem, psychologists agree that there are times I must suspend *all* support of even close adult alcoholic relatives so that they will be brought to a point where we hope they will seek help. Similarly, if an able-bodied person refuses to work, then God says let the person not eat. That *will* solve the problem, harsh as it may sound, as long as work is made available.

[Dolores Lear]

Susan.

There are some Human stories, about Humans that can forgive others for Killing a loved one.

But Why are most Humans still upset with Germany from WW2, that had Christians on Both Sides killing each other? Where is that Forgiveness, by Children of the Christian God?

It does not bother the Christian Humans in the USA, that the USA used two Atomic Bombs on Japan. And God Loving Christians Killed Each Other, in the Revolution and Civil Wars? Why?

Why did God not Force Humans, to Stop Reproducing Imperfect Killer Humans, or Kill All Imperfect Killers? Free Will?

The God, High Tech Human Beings Species, Do Not Kill, and will not Force Fallen Humans Not to Kill. Force is Not Free Will.

Cain's Defective Genetics, and all other Humans Reproduced by Body Birth Defective Genetics, have handed down, Flesh Lust Body Birth Genetic Defects and Human Hate, ever since Body Birth began on Earth.

Does Inherited Original Sin Continue, until Killer Humans Destroy their Home Planet, that God Humans Created/Colonized?

Where is the Proof of God's Love on Earth, with all the God Religions? In the few Individual Acts of Human Forgiveness?

Our Dying Planet tells a different Story, of Humans that Love God.

Eternal Physical Life, After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships, is Available for a High Tech Science Peace Human Species today, like the High Tech Lord God in Genesis, in our Human Image.

Humans have the Free Will, on a Planet, to Accept High Tech Peace, and Perfect Human Reproduction without Lust, or Not.

If Not, the Results: They have Reincarnation Generation Rebirth, Death and Rebirth. And Continuing Killing Each Other, Generation by Generation, until they Kill their Home Planet.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Yes Susan, no strings attached. People should be able to believe what they want unless they are intolerant of common civil liberties. Isn’t it funny ‘he’ still thinks Iggy sent you here? I don’t think he can understand woman have their own thoughts. Strange, how some Xs think. Thank god for Xs like you!

Well, then, Will, we can both be happy. Did you take a cold shower to come up with that?

Red, I couldn’t agree with you more. Posted by: Red Biddy | April 18, 2009 at 04:46 PM

…had a muslim try to convert me – and two friends – a few days ago. Guess what happened? The same as his god…nothing.

-have to go to work. Talk to you rascals later.

X LOONEY ALERT! Sorry, couldn’t help myself Red.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Dolores Lear]

J.T:
obligations:
**It is my place to stand between victim and victimizer.
**It is my place to warn if I see impending disaster.
**It is my obligation to not support destruction."

Me.
It depends what each Human grows to accept as victim, victimizer, impending disaster, and destruction.

A Planet need One Peace Government for All Humans, not a Divided Killer Population.

On Earth, it depends who your Parents are, and the Environment you are born into, as to what Human Obligations are important to them.

With Greed and Evil as the Lifestyle, many Humans accept to is OK to Kill the aggressor or someone that threatens them. So what are the Results?

A Planet that is full of Toxic Pollution, and Nuclear Bombs on Land and Sea, because of Inequality of Resources for All Life, that is Reproduced by Flesh Lust.

Flesh Lust Reproduction causes all types of Human Genetic Lust Characteristics, Greed, Inhumanity, Inequality, and a Killing Environment.

This is not the Human Products fault, for following the teachings of a Human Reproduced Killer Lifestyle.

Now that we have High Tech, we could use our Killing Resources, to Rediscover how God made Perfect Humans, in their Image, in the beginning, before Death began on Earth.

We do make Human fetus' in the High Tech Lab and Clone Animals.

God, our High Tech Human Ancestors, made Perfect Human Male then Female Clones from the Male Rib. Today we Know that Supernatural Reproduction as Cloning, and is possible.

So why not Continue this Human Endeavor, instead of Making all the Nuclear Pollution and Bombs that are Killing our Home Planet?

What are our Human Obligations to our Home Planet, Victim or Victimizer to All Life Species on it? Caretakers of Equal Life, or Killers of Unequal Death?

[Agnostic Pope]

Since we have no descriptions whatsoever of what Jesus and the other people in the Gospel stories looked like, every artist who depicts any story from the Gospels necessarily makes the images of the people up out of whole cloth. This is why 15th century Italian paintings of the Holy Family tend to look like a grouping of 15th century Italian nobles.

It's long been said that when you read a biography of Jesus, what you find out about is the author of the biography, not about Jesus. Sacred Christian art is no different. That does not mean the art isn't beautiful or isn't meaningful or doesn't qualify as "sacred." All of those things can be true even if the image itself is obviously a total fiction.

I've always had a fondness for the art of Salvador Dali. About a third of his works I find to be awful. Another third I can take or leave. But the last third I find to be really inspiring, and many of those have deeply imbedded religious themes, such as the marching crosses of his Columbus Discovers America painting. I even made the pilgrimage to St. Petersburg, Florida to visit the Dali Museum there. If you have the ability to appreciate fine paintings, that is one place you ought to try to visit before you die, no matter what your religious convictions are.

You don't have to believe in a particular religion to find its art inspiring. We (as Western Civilization) still treasure early Etruscan, Egyptian and Greek art from thousands of years ago, in spite of the fact that much of that art was devoted to pagan gods.

We look at that ancient art and appreciate the skills of the artists who made it. Hopefully, many years from now, the people of the future will look at our treasured art and appreciate its beauty, without regard for the underlying religious beliefs, which will almost-necessarily have vanished from the face of the Earth.

[Dolores Lear]

Agnostic Pope:
"Hopefully, many years from now, the people of the future will look at our treasured art and appreciate its beauty, without regard for the underlying religious beliefs, which will almost-necessarily have vanished from the face of the Earth."

Me:
With the Fast Pace of High Tech Science Rediscovery for the Past 100 years, for Evil Atomic/Nuclear Waste and Bombs on land and Sea, how much longer will Earth's Future Be a Literal Reality?

To Be or Not to Be? That is the Big, and Only Important Question. of the Day.

This Nuclear Waste cannot be destroyed. Humans keep storing it by Nuclear Plants, in the Ocean, and now hope to store it in a Volcanic Mountain.

What does it Profit Humans, to store up Individual Riches in Banks and Real Estate, and then Die?

How does it Help Earth's Eco System, to pollute it with Material even Nature cannot Process? Dirt to Dirt, Dust to Dust.

If Life Evolved on Earth, Humans are the Killer Species by Nature.

But, Life was Colonized on Earth by High Tech Peace Humans. What went Wrong with their Supernatural High Tech Reproduction of Equal Male and Female Clone Caretaker Humans, in Genesis?

Does it matter Why today? We cannot change our Past History, but we Can Know and Change our Future.

So why not use our High Tech for Good, instead of Evil? Our Fallen Body Birth Human Genetics and Physical Nature, cannot be Changed by Ourselves, but it can Be, with High Tech Regeneration.

Humans can Regain their Equal Purebred Physical Bodies, and Again be Equal Caretakers of Life on Earths and in Spaceships, like the Purebred Lord God 'Us' Humans, in our Image, in Genesis.

[Just Thinking]

Susan,

You have stated here before that you believe in one God, and that's good. Does your God have the final say in what is wrong? If God has the final say about what is wrong, then take all those things that He says are wrong, and those are rules. You can't avoid rules, Susan, unless you believe that God's standards change from time to time.

Either you want to live in God's Kingdom, Susan, recognizing and submitting to God's absolute moral authority, or you choose to live in your own Kingdom where you are the absolute moral authority. Which is it, Susan?

Do atheists reject any absolute moral authority? Atheists do no propose that there is an absolute moral code that should be universal among atheists, let alone among all people. Atheists reject any absolute moral authority, leaving each to establish their own kingdom where they are king and where they determine right and wrong for themselves.

Cole, for example, does not accept absolute moral authority. So he is left to define "good" and "goodness" for himself, rejecting any absolute moral authority. Even when you show him that his notions of "good" are not so good, he stubbornly persists, because his pride is wrapped up with *his* definition of "good." He's king in his kingdom. Charity, according to Cole, is good, but must never have strings attached or it is evil. That's a clearly incorrect rule of "good" that ends up promoting giving out money to able-bodied people who will not work, without any strings attached such as looking for work or improving themselves, etc. Charity must consider what is best for the recipient, and must often have strings attached in order to achieve real "good." But Pope Cole has declared a rule and he's sticking with it. :)

[Susan]

Just Thinking, Cole has been a very hard-working person ever since he was very young. I can tell from his posts that he's a big believer in independence, and is way more independent and hard-working than I've ever been. I simply can not imagine him giving handouts to anyone who is able to work and has opportunity to work, but just doesn't want to. He's also not naive, so I just can't picture him handing money to an alcoholic or drug-addict -- he might do something directly to help the alcoholic's family, like buying them groceries -- but I just have a sense that Cole would never throw his hard-earned money to the wind.

When Cole says "no strings attached," I'm pretty sure he means that he just gives real, concrete help when he sees a need he can help with, and wants to help with, and doesn't expect to get anything in return -- not even a "hearing" from the other person.

Yes, I believe in one God. I also believe that we as humans are continually maturing (individually and also as a species) and moving into a nearer understanding of God and His morality. I believe that when Jesus died on the cross, and the temple curtain was torn -- this also marked the beginning of God's spirit coming to dwell with man.

Throughout history, humanity has often demanded a king and a rulebook -- but I feel God's heart-desire has ever been to dwell with each of us individually and speak to us personally. Jesus said the entire law could be summed up in love God, love others. Of course, we are ever growing into a deeper understanding of what love really is. And as a parent, I've learned that many Atheist or non-religious parents, have a lot to teach me about what it really means to love my kids and accept them for who they are. (Continued)

[Susan]

I think traditional Christian parenting, actually allows room for a lot of selfish behavior on the part of parents, because we can impose our wills on our kids, at the same time persuading ourselves that it's really God's will we're imposing, and therefore that we're really acting in our kids' best interests. Some Atheist parents have really helped me to cut through a lot of my own personal crap in this area.

I simply do not agree that Atheists reject God's morality. Yes, there are huge differences between Atheists, just as there are between people in every other category. But I really believe that when Jesus died on the cross and the temple curtain was torn, this signified God's coming to dwell and commune directly with man.

This means everyone can hear from God -- Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Moslems, whoever. I feel that Atheists have a unique perspective because of their different focus. They tend to look at the reasons behind a rule, rather than saying we need to follow such-and-such rule because even if it makes no sense, God said it 2000-plus years ago. They respect the aspects of personal experience and reason, which you mentioned in your reference to methodism.

(Continued) As far as personal experience and reason as it relates to issues like homosexuality, it concerns me that many in the fundamentalist church seem to be dismissive of personal experiences or scientific discoveries that don't line up with God's word (as understood by the fundamentalists). Now, when you talk about methodism, I think there is actually more of a discussion going on in this denomination, and I don't know but what some methodists may be a lot more willing than some fundamentalists, to listen to and consider others' personal experiences.

[Dolores Lear]

One of the Basic Morals of the Lord God/Jesus in Genesis, was for the Male and Female Clones to be Celibate. God did not Reproduce Children by Body Birth. Humans were not to Reproduce, God did that.

Jesus when he was a Man, had a Celibate Movement. All the Males had to be Celibate. Jesus' Way also made the Females of the Movement, Celibate, even if they had Children, before they joined.

When Females joined, No Male or Female could be Heterosexual, even for Reproduction.

This Asexuality/Celibacy is Known, in most Religions before Jesus, on our Home Planet. There were Monks and Nuns, before Jesus.

So do Christians say their God made the Sex Act for Love between a Man and a Woman? For Pleasure as well as Reproduction.

If Sex is for Human Pleasure, why are Heterosexual Humans so against Gay, Bisexual, etc. having sex for Pleasure.

That may have been Religious Teachings before Jesus, that sex was only for Reproducing Humans, but Jesus brought the High Tech Truth of The Asexual Way to Eternal Human Life After Birth.

The Lord God Humans on another Planet, may have Evolved up to High Tech Reproduction, in the Lab, like we are today. High Tech is how the Lord God came to Earth, Colonized it, and made the Adam and Eve Clone Colony, in the Lab.

Lord God, 'Us', did make the Male, and the Female from the Male Rib. A Female did not Reproduce Adam and Eve.

On a 'Fallen' Planet, sex for pleasure is used many different Ways, even without a Human partner.

All the Mysteries of Supernatural Religious and Myth Gods, in our Human Image, can now be Solved with our High Tech Science.

High Tech Human Life is Eternal on Planets and in Spaceships.

[Red Biddy]

Susan,
No way can I let you get away with your comment "I simply do not agree that Atheists reject God's morality." I certainly do !!
You seem to be arguing against yourself as you talked of imposing your will on your kids persuading yourself that it is God's morality you are imposing and then feel that is the wrong thing to do, somehow. I think you are getting yourself in a bit of a muddle here !
All babies are born atheists and are a blank sheet of paper on which anybody can write their name ! As a parent you don't have to fill their developing minds with a lot of silly s...t about Santa Claus, fairies, hell, heaven, angels, and so on when you really should be teaching them social skills like sharing their toys with others, peeing and pooping in the right place,when they are physically able to control their bodily functions, and learning survival techniques like looking both ways when crossing a road !
You say you still believe that Jesus died on the cross and this signified God coming to dwell and commune directly with man.
This view (to me) is absolute rubbish, of course. It really is a great relief to get rid of this kind of mind set. what does it really mean ? All that religious language - telling us that we are "Washed in the blood of the Lamb" is totally meaningless to an atheist.
An atheists morality comes from his social experience and doesn't need an "authentic" rule giver like an imaginary God to lay down what those rules should be !
As a child I read Charles Kingley's book Water Babies in which there was a character called "Mrs. Do as you Would be Done By." That's a simple thought to start a child's thinking in the right direction don't you think ?