« Visiting with Jefferts Schori: 10-29-08 | Main | Notify next of pump-kin: 10-31-08 »

October 30, 2008


Will Graham

But lack of forgiveness can do more harm to us than we know, as the story of Hannibal Lector illustrates:



What's to wrangle about? If Jesus did not rise from the dead and is not God, all Christians are fools. If Jesus is not God, there's no difference between a Christian and a moral athiest. Six of one, half dozen of another. Just as well stay home from church on Sunday and watch Meet the Press, instead.

Joe Barone

Is forgiveness mandatory? A comment about the title before I read the rest of the post. It's only mandatory if you want to keep yourself sane. Forgiveness doesn't mean you don't still advocate that there be consequences for whatever it is you forgive. It just means you let go of the hold of hatred, revenge, regret (whatever name you give it) on yourself.

That letting go is not easy. Sometimes it takes a lifetime, and sometimes forgiving yourself for your own shortcomings (or real wrongs) is the hardest thing of all.

If you can't forgive, the past will always own you and the future will always be a threat because you might do something else you can't forgive. In other words, you give up whatever joy you have today. Believe me, I understand this. I've lived with it in my own emotional dealings all my life. I'm working hard to deal with it now.

Joe Barone

Bill, another truly interesting link to the Journal of Everyday Virtue. I've bookmarked it to come back to. I read this blog for the links you give us most of all. Thanks.

Will Graham

DW, thats a big if.

But the atheists are stupid as well. Why be moral...whatever that is...if you are an atheist?

They might as well follow Nietzche's path: "What is good? All that enhances the feeling of power, the Will to Power, and power itself in man. What is bad? All that proceeds from weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is increasing, that resistance has been overcome."

Nietzsche, The AntiChrist, sec.2 (This is a book referenced and praised by the hosts of the local atheist program, The Voice of Reason.)

Joe Barone

It must be an interesting day. I have a third comment. Controversy is in the eye of the beholder. I looked it up the other day. Two-thirds of the world's population is non-Christian. So when you talk about a book saying Jesus wasn't God and Mary wasn't a virgin (as we all know, the original word in the Old Testament source for Matthew and Luke means "young woman") there is a controversy for no more than one-third of the world's population at the most.

I suspect most people in the world are too busy trying to survive to really worry about silly things like that.

Will Graham

Joe, you simply stack the deck with perjoratives when you call the concerns "silly".

And that's O.K., just don't pretend like you have made an argument when you are really just trying to shut down discussion.

And a note to KCF; I noticed in the last post yesterday, you seemed concerned about killing in the Bible. Perhaps the Jews could have taken a more passivist approach like they did in World War Two?

That way, they could have been wiped out millenia ago. Would that have made you happier?

But I really don't get your atheistic concern with killing. After all, practitioners of atheistic philosophies killed over 100 MILLION in the 20th century alone, and the killing isn't over yet!

But that's nothing, atheistic scientists (your hero Dawkins tells us most scientists are atheists) have developed weapons that can kill EVERYBODY and poison the earth for MILLENIA.

Why don't you protest that?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

God is not forgiving.

Exodus 20:5: For I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

God is jealous and will never forgive you for your sins. And if you worship other gods, "He will turn and do you hurt, and consume you." 24:19-20

Dt 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Ex 34
34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: Ye shall destroy their altars.
34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Some religious people will stop at nothing in politics including accusing their opponent of being godless.

Also, video of the actual ad is in the article.

The already-contentious North Carolina Senate race took a brutal turn Wednesday after incumbent Sen. Elizabeth Dole released a television ad suggesting challenger Kay Hagan is "Godless."



It shouldn't be a big "if" for Christians. Two-thirds of the world may not care about about Jesus' divinity, but it doesn't matter what they think...as you say, they're not Christian. For a Catholic Priest to believe Jesus is not God and write a book about it, now that's the height of silliness. If Jesus is just a regular guy like everyone else, Christianity is a hoax. If the priest in question had his priorities in order, he would have quit Christianity before he wrote the book. It just makes him seem crazy for "knowingly" participating in a false religion. How silly is that?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org


I know of an ex minister who was an atheist while tending to his flock. He says that he could not let them down at the end of his career. While I believe there is some truth to that (or "truthiness") I will ask him point blank next time I'll see him if he did not feel it to be hipocrisy or he was concerned about his pension too. He is married, has grown up kids, so I would not be suprised if he had financial considerations in mind as well.

We all lie to others and ourselves all the time, by religious standards of Christianity, this would make you a liar or sinner since you are born into sin any way and ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SINS OF YOUR PARENTS (It's on multiple occasions mentioned in the Bible).

Take the god out of equation and you'll quickly see that there is a myriad of considerations besides god that people take.

In Italy a survey found that Jesus is #7 on the list of who Italians pray for when it comes to them asking for something.

So, no wonder, there are hundreds and hundreds of denominations of Christains all over the country and the world. They all create their own version of reality or "truthiness."

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

I got a postcard from a church and it had a theme of an "economic life shift" tied up with the current economic situation. I have received many postcards that were touting certainty in the uncertain world with god, showed dark tunnels and crouching people sitting and apparently crying in despair in them and then you turn over the card and you see bright green meadows with flowers and happy families walking and smiling with a key message "god is the answer to all your problems" written in a variety of way.

It is interesting to see how churches adapt to new psychological paradigms and go with the times and capitalize on the current economic and political situations to target a "specific niche". As a person running my own business I find it fascinating that they follow the basic principle of marketing. Of course, churches are incorporated for the most part and are non profit organizations and if they were to compete with each other as they do now for membership with taxation, many would fold and would not be able to sustain their activities.

Which brings an interesting point about this particular church that sent me the "financial card".

"What if you trusted god no matter what?

In our generations we've never experienced a time like this. The stock market is more volatile than ever. The political scene is packed with emotion, controversy and acrimony. there are wars and rumors of wars. This is a time to look to god.

Come Sundays in November as we take an honest look at our finances from a biblical point of view"

I think I will stop by this church in November and ask to look at their finances - they say "honest look at our finances" including their churches finances. Will they open up their books for a complete stranger to have an "honest look?" Let us see if they will be honest about their advertising they put out.

Dolores Lear

'Making Up Is Hard To Do", We are brought up in Environments of Hate, Greed, and Killing. How is Forgiveness used in our Divided Lifestyles? Different Gods result in Killing.

Luke 23:34. KJV. "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Our High Tech Ancestors, with whom Jesus had contact, were translated as Father and Angels. They appeared to others, beside the disciples.

Jesus forgave the soldiers, and was in a deep trance when taken down from the cross; they thought Jesus was dead. The Angels in the tomb, were Our High Tech Peace Human Ancestors.

Matthew 28:2,3. (Mary Magdalene and another Mary) "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:" (Space vehicle, and Spacesuit similar to our astronauts.)

John 20:12. (Mary Magdalene) "And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain." (Spacesuits)

Mark 16:5. (Mary Magdalene, another Mary, and Salome. The stone was rolled away) "And entering into the sepulcher, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment:" (Spacesuit)

Luke 24:3,4. (women) "And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:" (Space suits)

The Supernatural Gods and Angels, and their transportation can be Explained with Supernatural High Tech Science.

Dolores Lear

Jesus appeared to some of the Disciples.

John 21:1. After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself." (Jesus told them which side of the boat to catch fish.)

Luke 24:51. "And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven." (A vehicle, like the Spirit of God, that pick up Jesus at his Baptism, and carried him to the Wilderness. Matthew 4:16)

Mark 16:19. "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." (Jesus sat at the right hand of the pilot, (angel, in the vehicle that took him to their Spaceship.)

Acts 1:3,9-11. "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God: - And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Jesus, Alive, will return with the Father, Alive, in the Spaceship the New Jerusalem in Revelation, and come down to Earth, like he was taken up.

Dolores Lear

The Book of Mormon.
3 Nephi 11:4,6-10. "And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not. - And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them: Behold my "Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name - hear ye him. And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them. And it came to pass that he stretched for his hand and spake unto the people saying: Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world."

3 Nephi 12. Chapter lead in. "Jesus calls and commissions the Twelve."
3 Nephi 16. Lead in. "Jesus will visit other of the lost sheep of Israel. - In the latter days the gospel will go to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel - The Lord's people shall see eye to eye when he brings again Zion."

It is Time for All Religions to Make Up and Forgive the Lost High Tech Knowledge they accepted because of the Lack of a High Tech Translation of All Scripture and Myths.

The Lord God and Jesus, Will Return, and Do Have High Tech Eternal Human Physical Asexual Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships. Will Humans then Understand Forgiveness and Equality?

Will Graham

Why does KCF keeping talking about all these churches he visits?

He has NEVER offered any proof WHATSOEVER of these visits, and if you e mail him he still won't tell you.

You know why? Because none of it ever happened. Nobody debated him, there were no postcards.

He is just talking to himself, crying for attention. Perhaps he even believes it happened, who knows?

I am actually feeling a little sorry for him and I hope he considers getting help.

Will Graham

Notice how KCF and Delores just jump around various books of the Bible, throwing out quotes, willfully ignoring context? (You know, stuff like who was talking to who about what.)

Its called quotemining and is becoming increasingly dishonest.

Dolores Lear

Quoting is not Dishonest to God. Killing is.

Jesus said, Father 'forgive' them for they do not know what they do. The High Tech Peace Father and Jesus were Passive and Forgiving. They do not give an eye for an eye, or a Death for a Death.

The Father said: Thou Shalt Not Kill. Jesus said: Turn The Other Cheek. The Killer God in the Old Testament, was the Noah/Atlantis Killer Humans like we are today.

Since Jesus, the Prince of Peace became God, Christians have responded to Others with Hate and Killing?

When the Christian Immigrants to the USA felt a Threat from England, a War resulted. Christians killed Each Other. Where was the Forgiveness?

How did USA White Christians treat the Red and Black Citizens?

When the North and South, went to War, Christians Killed Each Other. Where was the Forgiveness? North and South Christians still have problems in Government.

When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, the USA went to War in Germany. Christians Killed Each Other. The USA went to War in the Pacific. They USA put Japanese Citizens in Internment Camps.

When USA went to War in Vietnam, Where is the Forgiveness?

The Terrorists hit in New York, and the USA attacked Iraq. Many Religious Humans Killed Each Other. There is still No Forgiveness, for the Assumed threats from Iraq.

Iran wants Nuclear weapons like the other countries around them, including Israel. Will this be the cause of a Nuclear War? Why?

Christians do not pray to the Father to Forgive their Enemies that do not know what they do. Instead, they go to War and return an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

Will Fallen Christians Humans Ever Know, Forgiveness means Do Not Strike Back and Kill Each Other, instead of just another Word?

adam harrison

Delores makes lots of accusations about Christians, and says quotemining is not Dishonest. Quotemining distorts and lies about Gods word. That is Dishonest.

It is dishonest of Delores to pretend it is not Dishonest.

How does she know these people were even Christians in the first place? How does she know they do not pray for their enemies? Does she know all Christians.

She asks lots of questions; does she ever answer them.

Does she know what a Christian is? Is SHE a Christian?

adam harrison

Delores and Iggy sound a lot alike.

Lying about the scriptures, lying about the "killer" God...who makes life possible in the first place.

Placing High Tech Science over the gospel, which is idolatry.

Yep, a lot alike.

Dolores Lear

Quote Mining. That is all anyone can do, with what is called Scripture and Myth. That is why we have many Religions on our Home Planet.

All Religious and Myth ideas, are Quote Mining of some Past Idea of GOD and God.

I am Quote Mining accepted Scripture, and Myth with a High Tech Science Translation. This is not taking away from Religious Quote Mining, written by Humans without High Tech, but explaining Supernatural Writings.

High Tech Science Quote Mining, puts Humans as the High Tech Human Species of Planets and Spaceships, instead of the Gods of Religion and Myth, that supernaturally flew up in the air, in fiery chariots and pillars of fire by night.

High Tech Quote Mining, puts Humans as the High Tech Peace Caretaker Human Species on Earths and in Spaceships.

With Pollution of all kinds, including Nuclear Waste, only made by High Tech Humans, the Heterosexual Body Birth Human Species are Killers, of all God Our Ancestors, Colonization of Life on Earth.

So calling me Quotemining is not a Bad Word, but the same Word that made the Christian Religion, into many Protestant Divisions.

Humans today are the Same Killer Gods in the Old Testament and Myth, that Caused the Planetary Flood, with their Pollution and Nuclear Weapons.

Humans today are trying to return to being like the Peace Supernatural Gods that Colonized Earth, but are Misusing High Tech, the Same as the High Tech Killer Gods of Noah/Atlantis.

Our Pollution and Nuclear Bombs will end this Life Endeavor, just as the Bible prophesies, about the Last Days of Life on Earth with a Nuclear 'Arm'ageddon War, and Planetary Judgement Day Fire.

Calling me Quotemining is a compliment, just like all translators of the Bible and Myth were Quote Mining.

adam harrison

I am afraid "quotemining" is not a compliment, Delores. It refers to taking statements out of context.

Translation, by the way, has nothing to do with quotemining, it has to do LANGUAGES.

Further, you are equivocating, by changing the meaning of the word to suit your argument.

"High Tech" science can not, in the first place, colonize planets, or give us eternal life, or do many of the other things you claim for it.

The High Tech science which you have idolatrously substituted for the gospel has, however, provided the "nuclear waste" you refer to and created many other problems...like filling the world with nuclear bombs.

But you do have one thing right, they may bring on Armageddon.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Tickets for Obama's Bash party tickets are in demand.

It looks like we'll be able to afford another month of godless bilboard if I sell my guest ticket.

I am putting my guest ticket up on Craig's list and eBay tonight.

a theist

"My wife and I are going to Chicago on business for a few days and while at it on Tuesday election night we are attending the Obama Bash at Grant Park. I was blessed to learn about the tickets release within minutes and was able to register online.My wife and I are going to Chicago on business for a few days and while at it on Tuesday election night we are attending the Obama Bash at Grant Park. I was blessed to learn about the tickets release within minutes and was able to register online."

Blessed???? Iggy, blessed??

"I am putting my guest ticket up on Craig's list and eBay tonight."

And what would the item number be???

But, blessed? Wow!

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

My Photo

About Me

  • Who is Bill?
    I'm the former Faith columnist for The Kansas City Star. For a more detailed bio, look under the "Check this out" headline below. My Twitter handle is @BillTammeus. Friend me on Facebook and you'll see this blog every day in your feed.

Become a Fan

MoJo Blog Ring

  • MOJO Bloggers
    Bloggers with connections to the University of Missouri School of Journalism.


Blog powered by Typepad

Google analytics


  • .