Visiting with Jefferts Schori: 10-29-08

Since Katharine Jefferts Schori (pictured here) became presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church in 2006, she's had to try to lead a denomination in considerable turmoil.

It would be wrong and way too easy to simplify the description of that turmoil and say just that people angry about the election of a self-acknowledged gay man as bishop of New Hampshire in 2003 think the church has lost its theological way and want either to undo that decision or to separate themselves from the church. But the election of Bishop V. Gene Robinson certainly was a defining moment in this ecclesial confict.

At any rate, Jefferts Schori was in Kansas City the other day and I had the opportunity to talk with her for about half an hour (well, the audio clip here runs 26 minutes) at Grace & Holy Trinity Cathedral. Barry Howe, the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of West Missouri joined us. He's the other male voice you'll hear.

A few highlights from my conversation with Jefferts Schori:

* Anglicanism, she said, predates the 1534 start of the Church of England and is "not a way of being in the world that's going to disappear" no matter what happens to the also-in-turmoil worldwide Anglican Communion.

* Christians need to learn to live with paradox.

* For a win/win outcome to be possible in church conflicts, both sides must be willing partners. That's not always been the case in the Episcopal Church.

* The Episcopal Church is essentially a denomination of converts, not a church of cradle Episcopalians.

* Interfaith dialogue must happen at both the local level and at the top leadership level, but the first kind is often most effective.

* When will there be unity among Christians? Not until the Second Coming.

(By the way, when Jefferts Schori mentions "Lambeth," she's referring to an international gathering of Anglican leaders that happens every 10 years, including the summer of this year.)

Have a listen (you may need to turn up the volume control on your computer) by clicking on audio graphic below:

If you have trouble getting connected using this graphic, try going to http://billtammeus.typepad.com/my_weblog/files/jefferts_schori.WMA

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ANCIENT WIGGLE ROOM ON ABORTION FOR CATHOLICS?

Sen. Joe Biden has been causing angst among some Catholics by suggesting that St. Augustine had a different view of abortion than the Vatican proffers today. Can he be right? This article, by an adjunct professor of religious studies at Washington University in St. Louis, suggests that Biden indeed is right. Whether Biden is right or wrong, the most interesting thing to me about the piece is the history of changes in official Catholic teaching about abortion over the centuries. Have a look.

To read my latest Kansas City Star work, click here.

Comments

[ChotoCK]

What a joke. Arguing the theological discussion of ensoulment as a justification for allowing abortion. Manslaughter, Murder2 and Pre-Meditated are all murder, but are prescribed different levels punishment.

Throwing quoted from Saints out into the field is pathetic. These writings do not carry teaching authority. The Church has unfailingly taught from the beginning, that intentional abortion is a sin.

[Joe Barone]

Bill, what an informative link on abortion. Thanks.

[Dolores Lear]

God's Daily Promises, 10/27,08.
This week's promise: God will conquer death
What is real?
"O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?
1 Corinthians 15:55 NLT"

What is Real? Are people just Marking Time on Earth, untill they Die to go to Heaven, After Death?

What is Wrong with Humans, that they Kill Each Other? Why do Humans have Nuclear Bombs and Deadly Pollution? For Love of God?

The Peace Gods in our Image, 'in the beginning', are the High Tech Science, Male and Female Clone Human Species, our Human Ancestors.

Humans should accept in Genesis, that Humans 'in our Image', did Colonize Earth, and Reproduced Perfect Equal Male and Female Clones 'in their Human Image'.

Humans need to Solve the Mystery, 'Why did Perfect Humans start reproducing Defective Humans, by Heterosexual Body Birth?'

Humans Do have Super Natural High Tech today. Humans Do Reproduce a Human Fetus' in the High Tech Lab, and Clone animals. Humans Do Know How to Colonize a Planet, like the Lord God that walked and talked to Humans, Face to Face.

High Tech Humans today, should Stop Working for Evil, by Polluting our Ozone Canopy, and working on a Nuclear War. Instead, Humans Could Conquer Death with High Tech, like Our High Tech Human Ancestors.

No Human Conquers Death, After Death. Life is for the 'Living', not the Dead. With Balanced High Tech Science and Regeneration, Humans can have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Our Human Ancestors, that flew up in the air and out into Space, and Colonized Earth, are Alive, and will Return Alive, in the Last Days of Life on Earth.

Eternal Physical Life is for 'Living' Humans, not the Dead.

[Dolores Lear]

In Genesis, Perfect Human Male Clones, Reproduced in a High Tech Lab, began seeding the Female Clones, and they Reproduced Misbred Humans by Heterosexual Body Birth.

This was the First Sin of Perfect Humans, that led to a Brother Killing a Brother. The Second Sin.

Then the Female getting worn out, from Reproducing many children, began Abortion, by herself or with the help of the Male.

All other Inhumane Acts, as Incest, Pedophiles, Abusers, etc., are called lesser sins, but Killing Each Other, is the First Result of the Original Sin of Heterosexual Body Birth.

When Will Humans Learn there is Eternal Physical Human Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships, not After Physical Death?

NoThing Is More Important to Physical Life, Than Balanced Elements On Planets And In Spaceships.

Eternal Physical Life Is For The Living Humans, Not Dead Humans.

[adam harrison]

Delores, you keep asking the same questions.

Why do humans have nuclear bombs? For love of God? It has nothing do with love of God. It has to do with atheistic scientists providing these things to any government with the means to obtain them.

You and the little Russian Atheist Iggy seem to have trouble understanding that.

[adam harrison]

AS far as abortion is concerned, if murderous mamas want to eliminate their own offspring, give em all DARWIN AWARDS.

Its fascinating that the liberals can't see that the conservatives are having much larger families and reproducing at a much faster rate than the are.

The atheists recently promoted a movie "Idiocracy" that made exactly that point, and enjoyed making fun of how stupid people were going to get.

Its funnier than they think, as they breed themselves out of existence.

The atheists deserve DARWIN AWARDS with Oak Leaves and Clusters!

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

Sarah Palin's War on Science
by Christopher Hitchens, Slate
http://www.slate.com/id/2203120/
The GOP ticket's appalling contempt for knowledge and learning.

Children need to be sprinkled with fairy dust
by Libby Purves, Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article5019221.ece
When we are young we use our fantasy world of magic and myth to grapple with fears about life, death and danger

Tim Minchin
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out (Take My Wife) From Tim's DVD 'So Live'
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=RFO6ZhUW38w

[Dolores Lear]

adamh.

If atheists are selling Nuclear bombs to countries, then why are Religious countries, with a God Boss, buying them?

Most religious God Bosses and Jesus say, Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Why not Obey, instead of Blaming Atheists that do not have a God Boss?

What is the percentage of Atheists compared to Humans with a God Boss?

Why cater to buy Atheists Wares for Sale? Do do they start all these wars?

The Humans that buy and use the Atom and Nuclear Bombs, that brag they have a country that believes in a Boss God, are hyprocrites.

Why not follow God and Jesus with our Actions, instead of our Mouths?

Does anyone even Know the God Rules of Equality in All Things, in Genesis, for All Life Species on a Home Planet?

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

I have read that 50% of pregnancies are terminated before the woman knows she's pregnant. If a Personal God is good, and has a plan for all of us; this Force, then also aborts. "For the Sake of Goodness." Cole

[Dolores Lear]

adamh.

The whole Planet is breeding themselves out of existence. In the 100 years Sexual Revolution, the population went from 1 for each person to 7, in the same land area.

The land area was destroyed during the Atlantis/Noah Planetary Flood. Now we do not have many areas where water is available, and without water Life cannot continue.

And so much of our water is polluted with garbage, nuclear waste, and oil spills, that is causing many diseases.

So what is so Good about bragging a section of Religious Humans is reproducing faster? For What?

The Nuclear War, which will 'not' be started by Atheists, but by the Majority of Religious Humans with a God Boss.

[adam harrison]

Delores,what religious countries? Ours? We only give lip service to it.
China? Officially atheistic, along with North Korea.

How do you know the nuclear war will not be started by atheists? The leaders of the old Soviet Union were atheists, as are the present day Chinese leaders, and they have threatened it.

Whoever starts it, the nuclear weapons are provided by atheistic scientists.

And if you provide weapons to warring gangs, you are complicit in their atrocities.

[adam harrison]

The effects of abortion on minorities is appalling:

http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/

[adam harrison]

Cole, I notice you never respond, just make accusations.

If you want real debate, e mail me.

[email protected]

[Dolores Lear]

adamh.

So far only the USA used an atomic bomb.

So it remains to be seen if the next one is a religious country or not.

Some say Israel, and the USA as backup.

[Deacon Allen]

Bill, Once again,I applaud you for your balanced reporting of your interview with Bp Katherine. It is through exposing one another to others' views that we can grow. And, it is through active ministry, not words alone, that we can live out what we discern to be God's will for us here in the Creation.

[Will Graham]

Some say China, or North Korea.

The atomic bomb is a product of that "High Tech Science" that you have replaced the gospel of Christ with.

[Will Graham]

Cole, whatever your argument, man is not God.

Playing God is what gets man in trouble.

[a theist]

I sincerely hope this guy is nuts.

http://bibleoutlines.com/blog/?p=341

[a theist]

Where are Cole's posts????

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

My wife and I are going to Chicago on business for a few days and while at it on Tuesday election night we are attending the Obama Bash at Grant Park. I was blessed to learn about the tickets release within minutes and was able to register online.

If anyone is interested, I'll have high quality/resolution photos of the Bash and can e-mail them to anyone interested after Tuesday when we get back - e-mail [email protected] with your request.

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

On subject of abortion...

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God approves of killing fetuses.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

Another note on abortion in the Bible...

Numbers 5:11-31 is the only place the Bible specifically mentions abortion, and it is mentioned as part of a bizarre remedy which God orders priests to give women suspected of becoming pregnant out of wedlock. If a woman is suspected of pregnancy out of wedlock, priests are to give her a "bitter water" which will cause a miscarriage (in other words, induce abortion) if she has indeed conceived out of wedlock.

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

Let us for now not talk about abortions sanctioned in the Bible, let's talk about killings in the Bible:
* directly by God: more than 399,933 people, not counting those instances where a number is not provided (like "the Flood", a city, an army, ...)
* indirectly (by God's command): more than 2,017,956 people, not counting 65 entire cities.
* by Satan: 10

[Dolores Lear]

I also say Humans are not GOD. The Lord God nor Jesus is GOD.

GOD made the Elements that made Life, so GOD is not the Humans that walked and talked with Humans on Earth.

Our Human Ancestors do not Kill Each Other, Pollute their Planet or Spaceships, and with High Tech Regeneration, they Do have Eternal Physical Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships.

This Knowledge was lost, when the Clones reproduced Misbred Humans by Heterosexual Body Birth. Unequal Races, Governments and Religions started, and Humans began Killing Each Other.

Jesus also taught to be a Peacemaker, for the Male to be Celibate, and for All to Share Equally and not own anything.

Obama also is impressed with Jesus, and wants to spread the wealth around also. No one except Monksand Nuns accept the Celibate part so far.

Now we use our Resources for weapons of massive destruction, instead of being the Equal Peace Caretakers of our Planet's Eco System and Resources.

The Result: Jesus' Followers with Nuclear Weapons to blow up Our Home Planet, and Nuclear Waste and Pollution 'will' cause the Planetary Judgement Day Fire.

So who can say who GOD is? Not Humans that GOD made.