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May 17, 2008


Joe Barone

My own opinion: For us as human beings, all truth is relative. On the basis of what he sees to be some standard of absolute truth, the pope might condemn homosexuals who consummate their love(which he did a day or two ago). I would see what they are doing as just as natural as what heterosexuals who consummate their loving relationships do. In both cases, I'm talking about committed, loving relationships, not promiscuous or abusive ones which I think are exploitive in either case.

The problem with absolute truth is that those who declare it are declaring it out of their own viewpoint. Some might say the Bible sets the standard. For me, the Bible is a human document of people's struggle to know and to relate to God. The only thing approaching absolute truth I get from the Bible is the statement, "God is God and God will do what God will do." But, of course, I say that out of my own instinctive belief in God. Atheists not only would have another instinct, but who am I to elevate my instinct above theirs?

To me, when people start talking about "absolute" truth, all those who disagree with those people had better duck and run. So it is with the pope too.

So is there anything to live by? For me it is, "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." Your love and belief in God is shown in your love for your neighbor. I mean neighbor as Jesus does, in the most broad sense.

Just Thinking

I BELIEVE there is absolute truth. The Universe itself is an absolute truth. Each person is an absolute truth. God is an absolute truth. But our ability to see absolute truth is relative. It is relative because our experiences taint our pointof view of reality. It is relative because our senses are incomplete. It is relative because the full picture is beyond our comprehension.

Image two crosses standing side-by-side in a field. The sun may cast a shadow that appears to be two crosses. Or the sun could cast a side shadow that appears as a single pole. Another shadow might be a complex overlapping structure. Are the crosses a reality? Sometimes we confuse the shadows with reality, and discerning any reality of the crosses from the various shadows is quite a challenge. We won't agree on the number of objects, or whether it is a cross or a pole. Viewing the crosses through every possible set of shadows could allow us to piece together what we believe is a complete picture, but is not. What about the molecular or subatomic? We've been tricked. More than our limited sight is required to discern complete reality. Paul wrote that "as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight."

Some people view things through the law. "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves." More succintly, "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Physical reality does not contain the Spirit.

Joe Barone

JT, Good post. We do live by faith, and for those of us with Christian roots, Jesus plays a big part in that.


From the two readings, it seems that the Pope and his merry group of academic Truth-setters are missing some major points. One is that many practicing and non-academic relativists do allow for Truth and we don't necessarily call it or see it as opinion. We do view it as a personal truth. Something that we can be quite sure about, without feeling we must impose it on the rest of the world. And we can also acknowledge the personal truths of others and validate same.

This is also called a belief. The difference between belief and opinion is vast. The former is based on truth and the latter is based on a judgment or estimation.

It's important to understand that Derridean relativism, in its seminal form as created by Derrida, is completely wrapped up with the relativism presented BY THE WRITTEN WORD OR TEXT. For anyone who has not had the "joy" of reading him(it is terribly difficult reading), he basically states, in the most convoluted and complex way possible, that we all interpret texts differently and that, therefore, a text cannot be said to have one "truth" or set-in-stone meaning. Ergo, a text such as the Bible, will have a different meaning for each reader.

Where I think Derrida's theories are stopped cold, is in dealing with non-textual truths, or in the scientific arena. This is where many relativists will confess to believing in scientific truths, as long as they are based on hard data and not theoretical writings.

This very fact drives many religious people crazy, because they view it as empowering science over theology.

Just Thinking

Science cannot yet describe an unshakeable truth! Each time measurements are pushed further, amazing new complexity emerges that invalidates previous scientific 'truth.' All fields of study seem to have analogous problems.

Science is limited to measures of position, velocity, mass, etc. Scientists probing the Universe using such measurements hope to gain a better understanding of the physical Universe. In that sense most scientists believe that there is an absolute truth of the Universe to be studied. There is the assumption that there is an absolute reality, but that our picture of that absolute reality is not complete.

The harder that scientists have pushed, the more that limitations have become evident. Measuring the POSITION of something more and more accurately has its price: one is forced to accept greater and greater uncertainty about the VELOCITY of that something. And vice-versa. This is called the uncertainty principle. One cannot accurately know the answer to all questions of measurement simultaneously. So there's always room for doubt about what's really there, assuming you believe there is an underlying reality at all. No absolute truth there.

Scientists assumed for a long time that initial measurements and physical laws would always allow them to predict later measurements, at least for basic experiments. But nature itself contradicts such an assumption. There cannot be a guarantee for later outcomes based on initial measurements and physical laws. No absolute truth there. And it's not just a consequence of the uncertainty principle, but something far more fundamental. The uncertainty principle only further exacerbates the problem.

Scientists have been forced to accept that we cannot measure all things accurately and simultaneously. Scientists have been forced to accept that we cannot predict perfectly, even if we could measure all things accurately and simultaneously. Science constantly changes. Only approximate truth there.

Dolores Lear

Bill: What constitutes "truth"?

God's Daily Promises, 5/17/08. "God honors truth."
Freed by "Foolishness"
"So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense." 1 Corinthians 1:20 NLT."


What is God's Truth and Wisdom? Religion teaches God is Spirit, and we Die and go to God the Spirit, even though many believe Jesus is Alive.

Did a Spirit or Physical God, Supernaturally, Create Physical Life on Earth?

Religion teaches Jesus is Alive in Heaven!
I always accepted Jesus was Alive in a Physical Body. What Body was Jesus in, when he was seen ascending into Heaven? Physical or Spirit/Ghost?

We now have God's Supernatural High Tech Science Knowledge, of the past 100 years, to translate all Supernatural Scriptures and Myth.

God/Our Ancestors, did make Life as we Know it on Earth, and made Clone Male and Female Humans in their Image. They flew up in the air and out into Space like Humans do today.

They walked and talked with Humans 'face to face', as our Astronauts/Angels do.

Where did today's High Tech Science Supernatural Knowledge come from? God or Evolution? Who will end up looking foolish?

Humans that accept God's High Tech Science Knowledge as Spirit? Or, Man's Natural Evolution Knowledge on Earth? Or Both?

Life As We Know It, May Have Evolved on another Planet, up to our High Tech today, Somewhere In Space, But Life on Earth was Colonized by our Human Ancestors.

God's High Tech Science Knowledge, explains all Gods, Creation and Evolution Theories, and Myths, on a Fallen Earth Planet.

Human Physical Life is Eternal, With High Tech Science, and 'Regeneration' Science. What is Spirit Life for? The Dead Humans?

What is Literal Truth?

Dolores Lear

Reproducing a fetus in a High Tech Lab, without the sex act, is not considered God Knowledge. Nor, is Cloning considered God Knowledge. Making High Tech Nuclear Bombs is not considered God Knowledge.

So What is Truth? That High Tech Science Knowledge Today, is from Satan or Evolution? Is Human High Tech Science, turned into Deadly Pollution, Nuclear Waste, that is Killing our Planet's Eco System, and All Life on Earth?

Was Satan a Human or another Spirit, that 'talked' with Human Adam and Eve? Were Adam and Eve Spirits?

What are all these Spirit Entities, doing to our Planet? Killing All Life as we Know it? Or are Fallen Humans doing it? Fallen from What? Perfect Human Bodies?

Are the Humans that accept the Bombing of our Brothers/Sisters of Life, going to the Spirit Heaven of God, when they die? Where Jesus is?

When I was young, in the Lutheran Religion, I believed my husband, would be my husband in Heaven, after we died, if we stayed True to each other. I think it was general accepted knowledge.

Is this still taught today, with our sexual revolution, with many sexual partners and spouses? What are the teachings today, for Humans for Life After Death in Heaven?

Jesus said, there is no marrying, or given in marriage in Heaven. What does God's Religions teach?

Is God on Earth, One God, a Triune God, or Many Gods?

What is the 'Literal Truth' of Life as we Know it on Earth?

Joe Barone

The world might be a better place if somebody had protested against Pius XII and other prominent religious leaders who stood mostly silent during the holocaust.


I think many would agree that most people do not live life with science versus religion. It is all good if the people using it are good. This forum provides the hundreds of readers the opportunity the access of IDEAS. The content of Ideas posted here alongside Science or Religion result in our ideas becoming just as explosive and eruptive as any evidence that can be offered by science or knee-slapping Theology. Therefore, the ideas we discuss with each other become very important and can make a difference for Good.


Truth is Powerful. Finding Truth sets us Free.


I sort of agree with you, JT. Except that although science can't come up with absolute truth, because the precision of calculations and instrumentation is always being improved, it can often make a claims a truth that could be said to more precise than the meaning behind words or anything that relies solely on being perceived through the human senses(sight, smell, taste, tough, hearing)

Dolores Lear

What is Truth? How are Christians to Live? What is the Truth that Sets Humans Free from Physical Death? High Tech Science?

High Tech Science 'Regeneration' and 'Restoration', is prolonging Life today, with many High Tech 'miracles', not possible 100 years ago, even Human Fetus' made in the Lab with Immaculate Conception.

There was No High Tech Science, since the Noah/Atlantis Planetary Flood, destroyed that High Tech, Overpopulated Society, with Nuclear weapons, as we have again today.

Translating all writings of Religion, Myth and History, we can Prove the Truth, that there is Nothing New Under Our Sun, on Earth, that has not happened before.

From Colonizing our Planet, and Pure-bred Human Clone Helpmeets, to Heterosexual Body Birth Humans, Life on Earth, has been through all the Cycles of the Human Species, Perfect and Fallen.

Until Mis-bred Humans today, accept that Humans can be reproduced in a High Tech Womb, and made Perfect Genetic Clone Male and Female Helpmeets, we cannot Conquer Physical Death.

What other Truth is there For Eternal Life, on Planets and in Spaceships? We Know our Bodies, After Death, return to the GOD Elements.

The Bible is about the Creator God Humans, that Colonized Earth, flew up in the air and out into Space.

Jesus Is Alive, in a Physical Body for 2033 years, and will return, in the Same Body he left Earth, with the Human God, the Father of Life on Earth, not of the Universes.

The Whole Truth of LIFE, and Nothing But the Truth: Eternal Physical Life is for the Living Forms, as well as for the Living Elements of our Universe. Without the GOD Living Elements, there is NO Physical Life.

Dolores Lear

What is the Truth, on How are Christians to Live?

2 Timothy 3:1-3. KJV. "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work. To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometime foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another."

Matthew 5:5. "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."

Meek means Passive, and Strong against Adversity without destructive action, not Weak.

To be subject to your governments, and obey the laws: federal, state, city, county, and be ready for every 'good' work.

Does, Every 'good' work, beside taxes, include going to War for your government, to Kill God's Temple, our Earth Home, and to Kill our Brothers/Sisters of Life? What is Good/Meek/Passive about that?

God and Jesus say, to be Passive/Meek and Mild, and not to Kill? How do we Serve our Earth Masters and God? By putting God back in Charge? How? Without a monetary basis, and Sharing Equally All Needs, as Jesus taught?

God said, 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me'. Does this mean, 'except', obey your Government or Religion, before my rules?

What Are Exactly, The Rules of Eternal Physical Life? Believing in God, and Living like Satan?

There is No Way, to Live like God, and Reproducing Perfect People, without High Tech Science.

Fallen Humans are Reproducing, like Satan convinced Eve to do, and have Flesh Lust Body Reproduction, and Death.

So What is Truth of Eternal Physical Life? High Tech Science Reproduction, the Way of Eternal Physical Life on Planets? Or Life After Death in Heaven?


It goes without saying that I support the protests against the Pope. I would be apoplectic if I lived in a country that spent 14 billion tax dollars on an organization that treated women and gays as second-class citizens, not to mention funding the legal defense of pedophile priests.

I am apoplectic that Bush punched a hole in the wall between church and state when he, in 2002, by-passed Congress to set policy that allows church organizations to compete for federal funds through the Office of Faith-Based and Community.

It's a sneaky way of making conservative Christianity, whose religious views also often treat women and gays and people from other sects or religions as second-class citizens, an unofficial state religion.


It also goes without saying that I am no fan of the concept of the Trinity.

I have said it before and will continue to say that it is a remnant of paganism that had to be addressed by the upstart religion of Christianity. And so the early church MALES killed off the Mother in the pagan trinity and replaced with a Father. And created a Church with solely male leadership.

Jesus didn't do it. The ancient Orthodox creeps thunk up this disaster.

The Trinity doesn't keep up humble, Bill. It keeps us oppressed, if we're women. It was the underpinnings for women to be treated as property and chattel. It's one of the worst errors to befall Western Civilization.

Just Thinking

I would protest the Pope for his mistreatment of those who have been victimized by his priests. It is attrocious how the Pope mistreats those who have been raped by his priests. After they're through raping the children, then he rapes them, too.

How? The first way is the Catholic Church goes out of its way to hide the facts of child molesters. There is Church policy that keeps knowledge of criminal information from public eyes. There is Church policy that hides the priests, relocating them to various unsuspecting parts of the world or relocating them even to the Vatican for retirement.

But then the Catholic Church goes further in its merciless lack of concern for victims by heaping on merciless condemnation of the victims' homosexuality! The Church refuses to accept new oversight at the local level by congregants in order to prove its repentance through meaningful action. But it demands repentance from the homosexual victims that it threatens with hell. "Condemn the victims and protect the molesters. Repent or burn in hell, Pope." There's your protest sign, Pope Benedict Arnold. You betray those you are charged to protect, and protect those you are charged to fight, Pope Benedict Arnold, traitor to God. I want to see PUBLIC condemnation of every Pervert Predator Priest, the same as is done for politicians who support abortion. I want to see the Pope name names, condemn, and excommunicate, PUBLICLY, as the Word of God demands.

Dolores Lear

No matter how much protest there is about Homosexuals/Gays, it cannot be corrected, until we Change our Breeding Process.

Body Birth gives us All, our Genetic and Physical Defects.
No on should be blamed for their Parents, their Genetic and Physical makeup, or the Environment where they were born.

But Blame is the name of the Game of Life on Earth. Lets put the Blame on the Basic reason, we are what we are.

There is not an Equal Environment on Earth, for Children or Adults, except in some Communes, and Equality is not there also.

Not even the USA, usually thought of as an Equal Society, has no Equality for All, except by statements on paper, and by mouth.

Just watch the news for an hour, and it proves, nothing on our Planet is Equal or Fair, because of Heterosexual Body Birth, especially the Overpopulation.

Until this is Changed, we will have the Nuclear War, and the Planetary Judgement Day Fire, to Clean off the Planet, like the Judgement Planetary Flood, when the Planet was Overpopulated, like it is today.

Only after this Final Planetary Catastrophe, there will not be any Eco System to support Life as we Know it, when our Ozone Canopy is also destroyed by our Pollution.

It is obvious, since we now Know we have High Tech Reproduction, of a fetus without the Sex Act, that Uncontrolled Body Birth is the reason, for all the Inhumane, Killing Society on Earth.

Controlled Equal High Tech Equal Birth, and Equal Opportunities, can be Controlled on Planets, and in Spaceships, with Shared Planetary Resources.


"Surely I have composed and quieted my soul; like a weaned child rests against his mother, My soul is like a weaned child within me." (Psalm 131:2)
God as a nursing mother? Well, yes. It turns out that the Psalmist's picture of God as a nursing mother is just one of the feminine metaphors we find in Scripture for God.
El means God and Shaddai means Almighty. But the title means more than "All-powerful One." The first time God promises to make Abraham fruitful he identifies himself as El Shaddai. Job, a contemporary of Abram, says it is the breath of El Shaddai that gives him life. Isaac blesses Jacob with El Shaddai's blessing to make him fruitful. When Israel blesses Joseph he chooses a blessing of El Shaddai.
Interestingly, in a Hebrew lexicon, Shaddai comes from the root shad which means "female breast, or of woman, or of mother." One of the core names of God is rooted in a womanly activity. God is revealing that he can be accurately called one who nurses, who makes fruitful, who sustains. God is like a mother, like a woman. As El Shaddai sustains all aspects of life, he does it with all-mighty energy: cultivating the blessings, cultivating the curses, cultivating fertility and cultivating people. God is like mothers, but mothers are also like God. Mothers cultivate life like El Shaddai.

I have no problem finding my feminine side according to God's structure outlined in the Bible.
The man in a relationship should want to lay his life down for his wife as Jesus laid his life down for the church. This relation of love from a man reflects God's love for us and I am willing to submit to this type of man. The militant feminist woman takes the role of the man. Is it any wonder the feminist finds complexed conflict? The Bible, God's Word, is very clear on the structure of family and the Trinity. Amazingly, God finds a place for us all.


I have no doubt that the concept of God can be re-envisioned to include female power symbols and that the Bible can be interpreted to support same.

However, the early Christian Church made no such attempts, at the time(Council of Nicea)the Trinity was solidified as official church doctrine; when Arianism and all other interpretations were deemed heresy. The Trinity was defined in male language and terms. The gender-neutral terms that some churches have adopted today were not used.

Instead, the early church formed itself on the icon of the male Trinity. Those are powerful traditional roots to move past.

Perhaps, AylaSurin, if you are willing to concede that God has both a feminine and masculine side, then the militant feminist is simply modeling herself on God. The latter, would not, in my humble opinion, ever create or sanction church sponsored bondage, a partnership with monarchies and governments that oppress, and the continuing policies by some Christian churches that ban women from the hierarchy and treat them as second-class citizens.

Dolores Lear

The Male Female God debates, will be Over, Once the High Tech Science Colonization of Earth by Equal Male and Female Clone Helpmeets, is accepted.

The Male God, as well as Gods, Goddesses, and Angels, ended up, as the Spirit Gods also.

Their High Tech, that that let them fly up in the air, and spirit Humans about from place to place, was how Humans, without High Tech, wrote about the Supernatural/High Tech Humans.

These Humans in fiery chariots, and thrones up in the air, that started Life on Earth, with the Adam and Eve Male and Female Clones, were also Equal Clones.

They would start the same type of Life on Earth, as they were. There is a Space Society of High Tech Peace Caretkaer Humans.

The Gods did not reproduce Humans 'in the beginning' by Body Birth, because they were also, not made by Body Birth.

We have that High Tech today, to start making Humans without the sex act. We are 'not' the first Humans that have had High Tech Science on Earth.

And Life did not Evolve up to our High Tech. It can be proved with High Tech Translations of the Christian Bible, all Religious Scriptures, and Myth.

Eternal Life is for the Living Male and Female Equal Clone Humans, not for Dead Body Birth Unequal Male and Female Humans.

Eternal Life and Heaven, really Are for the Living Humans, not the Dead.

The Only Way for Humans to be Equal is Pure-bred Male and Female Clone Helpmeets, not Unequal Mates.

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