« Dec. 20, 2007 | Main | Dec. 22-23, 2007, weekend »

December 21, 2007


Sick and Tired

When to kiss a congregation goodbye?

Interesting question.

And perhaps people here should be thinkning about when to kiss a blod goodbye?


You blew me away with the Cairo, Il., story of converts to Judaism, Bill.

One of the major differences between the practice of Judaism and Christianity over the past 2,000 years is that the Bible (some call it the "Old" Testament) carries no injunction to proselytize, recruit, or convert others to Judaism. This is in contrast to, for instance, Matthew 10:5-6 and 28:19 in the “New” Testament.

Consequently, while there are many faith-driven charities within both Jewish and Christian communities, you don’t find missionary organizations within Judaism.

From a Jewish perspective, Matthew may be the foundation of modern marketing, as opposed to advertising.

Rabable Rouser

No injunction to convert, thats true.

More on the order of exterminate.

Dolores Lear

I was satisfied with my Luthern religion, until this High Tech Science Knowledge of the Bible, so I could easily give up Organized religion, and not look for another pagan temple, made by Human Hands religion. I now know the Temple of GOD is LIFE and our Planet.

Even through I still have to live the Fallen Lifestyle, I have a Peace that I did not have in religion.

Jesus' Asexual Agape Celibate Love is fanatastic.

Rabable Rouser

What a nutball.

What is it with this place? Atheists making threats, people denouncing sex, Christians who don't even believe any of the stuff in the New Testament happened, whatever.

Bye Bye

Dolores Lear

About the Star of Bethlehem. I have heard and read many different Ways that people try to explain the Star and the Wisemen.

Now I have a High Tech Science Knowledge explanation.

The star was a flying saucer or some type of interplanetary vehicle, like the pillar of cloud and fire in the Wilderness. Only this was probably a flying saucer as that is what has been seen in the 1900s called UFOs. This could have been the light in the sky that moved and helped the wisemen to follow it. Also when it was over Bethlehem, the angels that sang were probably some of the crew on the saucer.

Either this was all made up, or it is possible for a High Tech Science Knowledge explanation of our High Tech today, which can explain many things in the Christian Bible and Myth.


Oh my God!!!!!!


The belief that God calls churches together seems to me to work against the American or democratic definition of self-determination and would instead, indeed, be seminal to the theory of pre-destination or having your life mapped out for you by God. No surprise, since pre-destination is a cornerstone of Calvinism and the Presbyterian Church.

I think you could make an argument that the latter belief is a servant or outgrowth of an acceptance of authoritarianism or monarchies.

If we accept the fact that we can choose our own destinies in the secular world, it would seem to follow that we as individuals, can freely hear, filter through our individualism, and follow the messages and information we receive from God. We don't have to rely on another human being or group of human beings to get the message and map our destinies.

I am not born or called to a corporal organization founded and built by Martin Luther or John Calvin. I am born or called to God.

The major factor regarding where we go to church should be whether or not the message speaks to us and follows what we know about God. Everything else, like asking questions and financial structure, are of small concern. Although how the church manifests its beliefs is always important.


That's an extremely interesting story about the group of black converts in Cairo. The most amazing thing is that they really did this or began the process independent of formal Jewish influence.

It seems quite clear that Matthews was called to this. I can't help wondering if the others are converting because of their own calling, or because they are persuaded by Matthews.


Dolores, you have definitely provided me with my dropped-jaw moment of the morning. I will not, however, be happily hummming, "Martians we have heard on high," during the holidays.

I completely accept the prof's theories regarding the alignment of planets. But I am curious as to the response of those who claim the Bible is inerrant to the idea that Jesus's birth was six years earlier and in the spring. The latter is a pretty old idea and widely? accepted.

JoLynne Martinez

Leaving congregations? I have left two, and I want to share with you the reasons why. The first church -- Episcopalian -- I left when I was a young adult, because I was disappointed in the lack of roles for women who felt a spiritual calling. I have to admit that was changing when I left. The first women had been ordained. However, there were also signes in the vestibule informing people when a woman would be saying mass, in case congregants wanted to take communion at another time. Change the congregation from within? Well, as a young woman in the congregation, I was not only ignored, but the priests could not seem to remember my name and face from service to service, despite the fact that I was a regular church goer. The second church I left was the Unitarian Universalist. We joined after becoming parents for the first time, wanting to provide a spiritual home for our daughter. However, it turned out the congregation was actually more interested in psychology than spirituality. There were other interpersonal reasons, but I left that church, too. Right now I am a member of a small informal spiritual community.


It disturbs me how little commitment people have to their church. I guess when one feels church should be all about meeting their needs that's what happens.

I think bill has a good point in noting that this church hopping mentality is more prevalent in independent (non-denominational churches), which to me begs the question: "How many new independent church plants are planted by individuals reacting against a negative experience they previously had in another church/denomination?"


This topic is always troubling to me. I'm Eastern Orthodox, and leaving the Church sounds to me along the lines of divorcing God. It is very serious business. For this reason, our archdiocese makes one wait for *at least* a year to become a member after one expresses interest in coming into the Church.

This said, I was Lutheran before. My wife also converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. We left a church to join another. The same priest worked with us before we converted.

The most important thing for him is that we not see us leaving one church, but growing into the new church. The reason for this is that leaving one church because of baggage brings old baggage into the new church. For example, in England many Anglicans became Orthodox when the Anglican church began to ordain women. This is not a very good reason on its own, IMHO.

I still am in contact with my old Lutheran pastor. I always have to remind myself that it is because of him and what he taught that I was able to become Orthodox. Remaining faithful to what he taught is important to me. A bonus is that I still learn from him.


Church hopping goes back to the beginning. There were different Christian sects following Jesus' death and even competing apostles. It wasn't until the third century that everyone was beaten into one church through the initiatives of an emperor. It served his purposes.

The church hopping started back up in a few centuries when the Orthodox church broke from the Roman Catholic. Or vice versa, depending on whose side you're on.

Why is the church hopping of a Luther or Calvin more acceptable than the church hopping of any other individual? Because they began their own church, as opposed to joining one?

Thank you, JoLynne, for sharing your experiences. I can't think of a better reason to leave a church than sexism. It renders the practices of the church invalid, although you could make an argument that it's just fallible human beings making bad choices for God.

Dolores Lear


Not Martians, but real High Tech Human Beings, like were Colonized on Earth without Body Birth, from whom we are descendant.
Once Humans on Earth can accept this many of the supernatural happenings of all religions and myths, can be translated, so we could possibly find out the planet, or Solar System they came from.

A God out there that could come to Earth and walk and talk, made Humans like us, and did not scare the Humans that were here, because they looked like reptiles, or little green men, or something gruesome, should be looked into. Most of the descriptions of God, are that they looked like Humans. All those objects, that flew in the air with Gods sitting on them, were saucers or some type of helicopter, like we use today.

I do not see anything awesome anymore since we shot off a shuttle, that had the smoke and glory light of the sun, like the God of the Bible had in the Bible.

So until, I have had an exceptional experience, and do not mind being called weird, as it this translation will still happen one of these days. The Knowledge is in our genetic memory, or in our atmosphere now, and always was, only without High Tech, could not be translated except as supernatural.

Exciting, and uplifting for me.

Peace, and Agape Love.



Regarding Jewish proselytism, you're mostly correct about there not being any command to proselytize in the Bible. However, in Isaiah there are images of Gentiles coming and worshiping the Lord in the end of days or being punished. The same passages do not address whether the Israelites are supposed to let the Gentiles know about this demand, however.

There have been movements in the history of Judaism to proselytize Gentiles. I'm not sure how the Lubovitchers would fall on this scale, as they seem to want to proselytize other ethnic Jews.

One interesting difference between Judaism and Christianity is their view of Gentiles. The Torah tends to be quite negative towards them, while the Gospels are much more positive towards them. This could affect how the respective religion views proselytism.


"The most important thing for him is that we not see us leaving one church, but growing into the new church."

That may be church hopping responsibly, but it's still church hopping.

I have a hard time dealing with the argument that you would be divorcing God, if you left your current church. You could well be entering into a deeper and richer marriage with God.

Isn't that what happened when you broke with the Lutheran Church? And what was that? An anulment?

Hawk Eye

Get your DVRs and TiVos programmed for

What Would Jesus REALLY DO?
CNN, Tonight 8 ET

After Jesus: The First Christmas
CNN, Tonight 10 ET

Eye of the Hawk

Jet From Supermassive Black Hole Seen Blasting Neighboring Galaxy

Washington Post - Dec 17, 2007
By Marc Kaufman A jet of highly charged radiation from a supermassive black hole at the center of a distant galaxy is blasting another galaxy nearby -- an act of galactic violence that astronomers said yesterday they have never seen before.

Hawk Eye

Stem Cell Research Dominates 2007 Medical Field

Voice of America - 4 hours ago
By Jessica Berman Stem cell research was the major medical and science story this past year, topping the list of achievements that experts say might finally lead to cures for many diseases.

New Giant Rat, Pygmy Possum Discovered

National Geographic - Dec 17, 2007
December 17, 2007—Mammal expert Martua Sinaga holds a 3-pound (1.4-kilogram) rat that may be a species new to science. The rat was found in the remote Foja Mountains of western New Guinea, Indonesia, on a June 2007 expedition, experts announced ...

Hawk Eye

Gene engineering corrects retardation in mice

Reuters UK - 1 hour ago
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Genetic engineering can correct the worst symptoms in mice of Fragile X syndrome, the most common inherited cause of mental retardation and autism, US researchers reported on Wednesday.

Whales Evolved From Tiny Deerlike Mammals, Study Says

National Geographic - 2 hours ago
The nearest ancestors of Earth's largest-ever animals were tiny deerlike creatures that jumped into rivers to flee prehistoric predators, a new study suggests.

Closest Whale Cousin—A Fox-Size Deer?

Scientific American - Dec 19, 2007
By JR Minkel INDOHYUS SKULL shares similarities with whales and dolphins, particularly in the structure of its inner ear. Researchers say this raccoon-size, 48-million-year-old wading mammal may be the closest known relative to seafaring mammals.

Hawk Eye

U.S.News & World Report

FAQ: The End of the Light Bulb as We Know It

Wednesday December 19, 11:01 am ET
By Marianne Lavelle
The incandescent light bulb, one of the most venerable inventions of its era but deemed too inefficient for our own, will be phased off the U.S. market beginning in 2012 under the new energy law just approved by Congress.

* Why are they taking my light bulbs away?
* How do I save money, when a CFL costs six times as much as an old-fashioned bulb?
* I've heard that CFLs don't really last as long as they say.
* I don't think that I like the color of the light from CFLs.
* I've heard that CFLs have mercury in them--isn't that bad?
* But if you break a CFL, you'll have a toxic spill in your home.
* Isn't there efficient lighting without mercury
* Is Thomas Edison turning over in his grave?



Its all made up fossills by aheshits in China.

Did you know Atheist spells EATS***?

Hawk Eye

A Designer Universe?

by Steven Weinberg
Professor of Physics, University of Texas at Austin
Winner of the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physics.

I have been asked to comment on whether the universe shows signs of having been designed.1 I don't see how it's possible to talk about this without having at least some vague idea of what a designer would be like. Any possible universe could be explained as the work of some sort of designer. Even a universe that is completely chaotic, without any laws or regularities at all, could be supposed to have been designed by an idiot.


The Ethics of Hell

Pimping for Jesus


I know I am just a loser. I can't beat theswe atheists. They have too many good argumetns.

I couldn't debate an atheist, I am no good at speaking and theywould laugh at me.

But I realize I may be delusional and need help.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

My Photo

About Me

  • Who is Bill?
    I'm the former Faith columnist for The Kansas City Star. For a more detailed bio, look under the "Check this out" headline below. My Twitter handle is @BillTammeus. Friend me on Facebook and you'll see this blog every day in your feed.

Become a Fan

MoJo Blog Ring

  • MOJO Bloggers
    Bloggers with connections to the University of Missouri School of Journalism.


Blog powered by Typepad

Google analytics


  • .