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January 09, 2010

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Susan

Theist JD, of course I can't dispute your experience in which you haven't observed religion to be a factor in domestic abuse cases.

I'm not a lawyer -- but I just know of a couple of cases where Christian women sought Christian counsel, and were encouraged to keep living with their abusers. In one case the woman had separated from her husband and obtained a restraining order, and she was told that if she was really serious about wanting to work things out, she needed to drop the restraining order and go back to her abuser.

These Christian counselors seemed to know nothing about the importance of an abuser taking personal responsibility for his anger addiction. It's pretty much "classic" for abusers to blame their wives for "setting them off," and for the wives to be enablers (co-dependents) who have often spent their childhoods as caretaker for an addictive or abusive parent.

So, joint marriage counseling is pretty much a recipe for disaster in abuse cases, because for dependents and co-dependents, "working it out as a couple" means him blaming and her accepting the blame and responsibility for his problems.

Here's a link to good article I've just started reading -- "Does Rick Warren's Church Condone Domestic Violence? My husband hit me. The church took his side" by Kathryn Joyce --

http://www.doublex.com/section/news-politics/does-rick-warren%E2%80%99s-church-condone-domestic-violence

Red Biddy

Susan was complaining yesterday that "It seems like everyone else is wanting to debate the existence of God." and "Why can't we just accept that no one really knows for sure".
Well, Susan....guess that's the whole point..intelligent human beings, while admitting they don't know everything, will still continue searching for answers, to the extent of our knowledge, and that includes the question whether the concept of God is valid or not. I'm sorry if you feel that we are not paying enough attention to your child raising posts but discussions about the existence of God are a lot more fun !

Greg Swartz

An Atheist Parable:

The other day before the snow fell and the grass was a bit greener, I decided I wanted to buy a house, so I called Iggy – he’s in the real estate business you know.

I told him that I wanted a nice house in which I could spend the rest of my days in relative peace and prosperity. He said that he had just the deal!

Well, we got to the property and Iggy said: “Isn’t that a magnificent house?”

I said; “But, I see no house; it’s a vacant lot!”

Iggy said: “But it really has a magnificent house on it and if you cannot see it, you will just have to have faith that it is there!”

Then Iggy said: “Of course, the pink unicorn grazing on the grass will be watching over you, although most of the time she will appear not to be there because she will be in her great stable in the sky!”

I said, “Do you mean that she will be my great protector for all time?”

Iggy: “Yes, she is omnipotent and omnipresent and will take care of you forever!”

Then I noted: “But, I had put my faith in Hank!”

Iggy: “No, the pink unicorn is the only true protector!”

I said, “You have really given me a dilemma. You want me to pay you money for a house I cannot see that is supposed to be protected by something I cannot see. What is more, you say that your pink unicorn is the true protector when all this time I had put my faith in Hank!”

So (to the readers) which denomination would you pick? Feel free to check the internet, but here are a couple of links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn and http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php . Or, would you maybe pick NONE?

Will Graham

Greg, that little parable with Iggy as the main character is hilarious. And more so than you realize, if you think about some of the things he claims to have ACTUALLY done! Bahahahahahahahaha!!!!

But lets look at it from your angle.

You have told us that we live in an "undirected universe".

Existence, life, mind, reason at a level able to apprehend the mathematical order (an abtract mental concept) of the MATERIAL universe, fine tuning, the information passing content of living cells, and more...all the product of "undirected processess" according to your claim.

And you can demonstrate NONE of it.

But I have bad news... quoting atheists who pretend they are "doing science" while they are promoting a philosophy (talk about a SCAM!), or just listing books and articles is NOT a "demonstration".

But feel free to check the internet for that proof; and keep me posted! LOL!

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Is religion shrinking, dying?

Big churches posting small membership losses
http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=17638

Membership has waned in the nation's largest Christian bodies -- the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention -- while mainline Protestant churches continue to shrink, according to the "Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches."
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Science vs superstition, not science vs religion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/feb/13/religion-evolution

We are not going to understand the growth of creationism in modern England so long as we think of it as a primarily Christian phenomenon, or even a religious one. Take a look at the most recent surveys of creationist belief among teachers and among the general public. One was conducted by Theos, the Christian thinktank, and has been attacked by the BHA – more of this later – and the other measured attitudes towards creationism among school teachers.
**********************************
Churches Fight Back Against Shrinking Membership
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/religion/2009/06/03/churches-fight-back-against-shrinking-membership.html

"The under-35 generation thinks church is a judgmental, hypocritical, insular place," says Jamie Dunham, chief planning officer for Bohan Advertising & Marketing, the firm that designed the United Methodist campaign. "So our question is: What if church can change the world with a journey?"
***********************************
Michael F. Palmer (1997). Freud and Jung on Religion. Routledge.
http://philpapers.org/rec/PALFAJ

Freud described religion as the universal obsessional neurosis, and uncompromisingly rejected it in favor of "science". Ever since, there has been the assumption that psychoanalysts are hostile to religion. Yet, from the beginning, individual analysts have questioned Freud's blanket rejection of religion. In this book, David Black brings together contributors from a wide range of schools and movements to discuss the issues. They bring a fresh perspective to the subject of religion and psychoanalysis, answering vital questions such as: · How (...)
****************************************continued

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

continued
Shrinking population threatens an ancient faith
Zoroastrians debate inviting outsiders in
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2004/09/05/shrinking_population_threatens_an_ancient_faith/

Now demographers say Zoroastrians, who live mainly in India, where they are called Parsis, and Iran, where the religion originated, could face eventual extinction because of a falling birth rate and a tradition of barring those from other faiths from converting.
*************************************
Mormon portion of Utah population steadily shrinking
http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_2886596

Within the next three years, the Mormon share of Utah's population is expected to hit its lowest level since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints started keeping membership numbers. And if current trends continue, LDS residents no longer will constitute a majority by 2030.
************************continued

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

conitnued
YOUTH LEAVING RELIGION

How Many Youth are Leaving the Church?
http://www.conversantlife.com/theology/how-many-youth-are-leaving-the-church

Conclusion: It's safe to conclude the church is losing a signficant portion of its young people for some period of time. Even if we take Barna's lower numbers and then cut 10% off to be extra conservative, we're still talking about losing half of our young people. Is that acceptable? And if not, why are we losing them and what needs to be done?

Survey: Evanglical Youth Leaving Church Before College Now
http://www.churchsolutionsmag.com/hotnews/survey-evanglical-youth-leaving-church-before.html

In the past, youth typically made departures from the Church once they headed for college or whatever life change they were making between the ages of 18 and 24. But new survey results say that youths are more likely than ever to depart the church before they graduate high school.
According to an America’s Research Group survey, 95 percent of 20- to 29-year-old evangelicals attended church regularly during their elementary and middle school years. Only 55 percent went to church during high school. And by college, only 11 percent were still attending church. The results will be discussed and analyzed in an upcoming book, “Already Gone” by Ken Ham. To read more, visit the source.
********************************************
GOD FAILED

Christians cannot prove their god religion. They want the remainder of the world, billions more than they, to follow the rules of their bible myth.

Jim and ‘Mind’ gang, does god speak to you? I have asked this before and not one reply. What does this say? Ever seen jesus in a bowl of oatmeal?

Religion is slipping away….

Peace For the sake of Goodness Cole

Jacob

Don, I see that you responded to my question as to what some of your reasons for once being a Christian were, by saying that you were born into a Christian family and a "Christian culture". You say you were then "Programmed" to be a Christian.

If I am following you, then, it looks like you actually HAD NO REASONS OF YOUR OWN to be a Christian.

Further, since you don't even mention wanting to follow Christ willingly, I am not sure why the atheists think it is so significant that you are "no longer a Christian".

As to you being "born an atheist" and having to be taught about God, so what?

You were born not knowing anything about History, Philosophy, or Science either, and for that matter, you were born not being able to read and write.

Jacob

"Member" of KCFT or whoever, as I pointed out yesterday you can always find an article or an expert to back up an argument, and you seem to specialize in linking to such without actually presenting actual arguments of your own.

But anyway, if religion is dying, why are you so agitated by it? On the advice of a couple of other posters, I have looked up YOUR GANG'S many comments on this subject, and you seem awful anxious for believers to SHUT UP!

Very strange, since you claim religion is dying anyway.

Jacob

"Member", I would add that I have not seen you try to provide any proof for YOUR position, that existence IS explained by mindless processes; all you do is try to insult people into quitting and shutting up. (Your other "member" gave you away on that one. He said that is your guys purpose here.)

And no, I have not see Jesus in a bowl of oatmeal.

How about you? Do you find truth in a bottle of booze?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Dolores???? put out a link yesterday to an article about a rather comprehensive account of one woman's story and her husband abusing her (both membrs of one of the largest if not the largest churches in America). This is why religion is doomed to failiure sooner or later.

Religion as "looney toons" deserves to die as an irrational offshoot of human pscychie. It must die. I wonder if god agrees with me? I would not be suprised if at some point in the future religion is regulated on the pscyholocial level like drugs and food are regulated in this country.

Here is the rationale. Study after study shows prayer is either not helping or damaging to people. At best it's a waste of human resources, at worst scam, a deliberate hoax and consipracy by the clergy who should have known and should know about effects of organized cults on people.

So, when a minister calls for a congregation to pray for someone and he shoudl have known or know because of expertise in his field of shamanism that the most recent scientiifc studies point to harm of prayer in heart patients in terms of recovery and in terms of pain and discomfort when they knewe they were prayed for and rates of death, then these ministers become civilly liable for the BS they promote from the church.

I think it would be an interesting experiement, e.g. if every church in Kansas City was put on notice with a certified letter to them about studies on prayer. Also, at the same time, every member of each church were notified about that and told to tell their minister not to call for prayer in church, not to pray publicly or notify the person being prayed for. This should put some breakes on the crazy practice of Xian shamanism.

You don't even need to use a certified letter, you can make it much more public and much more visible and open. After/before the service when people are getting out of the sermon or getting in pass around fliers with the results of the studies, so they have something to talk about before the sermon, during and after. You can pass the fliers on the corner of the church.

(Continued)

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

(Continued)

The flier also would call for action on the part of parishioners - if they felt at some point that the minister lied to them, misled them on Biblical grounds or any actions may have caused harm to them and their family to contact a civil attorney and file a lawsuit against the minister and the church.

I am sure it will not happen in every church but over time, there is bound to be a church member somewhere who has been harmed or can prove that a person died/had significant medical/pscyhological damage due to the anxiety imposed on him by "unrealistic" expectations of prayer.

Perhaps, Southen Baptists and Missouri Synod Lutheran Churches would be the ideal candidates for it as the crazies churches?

A flier blitz can be conducted at churches regularly - each church can be hit every couple of months right before or after services. When you are standing on public sidwalk and not church's property when cars are turning in or leaving, it's nothing but "free expression of rationality in face of irratoinality perpetrated by religion", all legal and prtected.

I think I'll bring up this issue at KCFreeThinkers.org meetings. It should be interesting. Of course, newspapers will be notified, TV and radio stations. It should be fun!

This would be an interesting case - I'd comapre it to the threat of legal action that caused the City of North Kansas City drop "the Lord's Prayer" from their weekly city council's meetings.

I bet you, that though KCFreeThinkers.org will be clearly identified in the fliers not a single Xian will ever show up to confront us in our meetings. I also bet you that not a single attorney of these churches will be able to do anything about the blitz campaign - the freedom of religion/from religion is a double edge sword. So, rationality will always be poking holes at the crazies.

(End)

Dolores Lear

Greg posted an Atheist Parable about 'Hank'.

Iggy posted about Hannibal Lectern, and the Pink Unicorn.

Hank is a little deeper but still confusing, as is the Religions, without a High Tech Translation of Supernatural Gods in our Image. These parodies are very intelligent comparisons, to Supernatural Religious Gods, in our Image.
Your story about buying a House from Iggy, was also good.

The Peace Earth Gods, as our High Tech 'Celibate'/Asexual Reproduced Human Ancestors, also is time for the Nones, Atheists, and Religious Believers, to accept the High Tech Science Version of Supernatural God Life 'in our Image' on Earth.

Genesis, the One God, God/Us in our Human Image, made Humans in their Human Image, They Walked and Talked with Humans, and are also called a Spirit 'Being'. Confusing because Humans are Physical 'Beings'.

This Spirit God bombed two cities with fire from the sky/Heaven. USA Humans did in Japan. Are Humans in the USA, Spirit 'Beings' also?

If USA Humans are Humans, why was God/Us Spirit Humans in our Image? Is that where the teachings of Spirituality came from? God a Supernatural Spirit, was Translated by Humans without High Tech Science?

Myths about High Tech Atlantis, with up to date Modern Humans and Buildings, was destroyed in a Planetary Flood that broke the land mass into two sections and sank.
The Noah Flood in Genesis, lasted over a year, and Sank also.

On our flat maps, Earth is now in two main sections also, split down the middle with the Atlantic and Arctic Oceans.

Myths are stories about Literal happenings. The Noah Flood and the Sinking of Atlantis are the same Event in our Past. A Supernatural Mythic Event, is High Tech Literal Reality.

Continued.

Dolores Lear

Continued.

UnEqual Male and Females by Heterosexual Body Birth are not compatable with long Space Trips. Heterosexual Birth definitely has not worked out on Earth, with Peace and Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and Spaceships like God/Us Humans.

Hannibal Lectern, Pink Unicorn, Hank, A Spirit Supernatural God, or High Tech Peace Human Ancestors? Which was 'in the beginning'?

Sex Reproduction, definitely have not worked out on Earth, for Peace and Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and Spaceships.

Body Birth Humans were trained up as a Child, into all the various religions with similar themes.

Greg:
So, which denomination would you pick?

Me:
"Which God Colonized Earth 'in the beginning"?

Hannibal Lectern, Pink Unicorn, Hank, A Spirit Supernatural Religious God, or our High Tech Peace Human Ancestors?

I pick our High Tech Asexual Peace Human Male and Female Clone Reproduced Humans, who do have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets, in Spaceships, in the Universe.

Etermal Physical Life After Birth is for High Tech Science Reproduced Humans, is not for Humans with Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth on a Planet. When their Planet, Solar System, Galaxy or Universe Collapses into a Black Hole. Regenerates, and Explodes into a Big Bang and a New Universe.

There is more than One Universe for High Tech Humans to Escape to, when their Universe Collapses. This is the Eternal High Tech Human Life After Birth, that Fallen Humans recorded and interpreted as Life After Death in 'Heaven'.

Eternal Life is for Asexual/Virgin/Celibate Human Male and Female Clones, for Ever and Ever, Amen.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Cole,

One would think that "every" Xian and Jew and Muslim should be gun ho about their god(s) (including Satan as a god of course) and every day of the week then need to be bombarding every newspaper, every TV station, every radio station and every blog online with testimonies about god talking to them.

Yet they don't. The world moves on paying very little attention to the crazies syaing they ahve seen Jesus in a bowl of cerial or on a toast.

Why isn't prayer a part of "each" surgery mandated by each individual hospital and recommended by the American Medical Association, Councils of Heart Transplant Doctors, Kidney Transpalnts, Retina Transplants, why isn't every single doctor who is Jewish, Muslim or Xian done'snt begin their medical examination with a prayer - they can ask the patient if this is OK or not and then proceed accordingly? Why doesn't this happen?

Because "common sense" tells people it doesn't work. Last night at BlackDog Church we talked about "things as they are" even if they appear irrational - e.g. an object dropped from a stationary car vs. in car moving. Once you see the experiment a few times and understand the rational for gravity and relativity you "accept it" and move on with your life.

Why? I think it is pretty clear why. Because as "animals" and "rational" beings we are evolutionary designed to live and not die, to run and not stand still, we are I dare say are evolutionary designed as a species to "learn" from the religious BS that we have been fed and rise above it - as it will be another step for us humans on the way to wherever "blind" evolution leads us to.

(Continued)

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

(Continued)

I am perfectly good to live with uncertainties.

For religoius "loonies" on this blog I say - time for you to crawl under the rock. You will die out there with yoru crazy ideas, this is happening, there is nothing you can do about it. Your god Jesus/Yahweh/Holy Spirit will thank you for it in your brain. Try it, you may like it.

If not, you will be pushed aside into the ditch and buried like Jimmy Hoffa, your brains will be crushed under the rock of reality and rationality.

You can run but you cannot hide. You will be hunted, the bullet of rationality will catch you and strike you down. It's just the matter of time for the religious people to understand that. You yoruself better save your brain cells and do something prodcutive as Jesus commanded - instead of wasting your time here on the blog let's send you to Africa to dig some wells or fight malaria.

Or, as DW stated, you are already "suffering" and "dying for faith/Christ" through "metaphorical" "sacrifices" you are makeing in comfort of your home and your life when you raise your family? Who told you you needed to get married? Did god tell you that? Who told you to have kids? Did your god tell you that? Who told you to get a job? Jesus said "Think not of morrow" - why they hell are you not listening to your god and to your irrational brain?

It's time for you Xians to start acting ratioanlly and not silly.

Come to BlackDog Church next week Sat 7 p.m. - a Harvard Master's Student in Theology (a Xian) will speak to us. Also, on Jan 30, 7 p.m. Bill Tammeus will talk about homosexuality and the Bible. The gist of the matter will be that Bilicially homosexulaity is "not" condemned. I am looking forward to the mental acrobatics that will need to be performed by Bill to promote this idea.

Don

Jacob said; "As to you being "born an atheist" and having to be taught about God, so what?"
"You were born not knowing anything about History, Philosophy, or Science either, and for that matter, you were born not being able to read and write."

Yep! We come into this world being taught alot of things. Some of it is true, false, or unknown. We all just do the best we can to apply critical-thinking in order to perceive what we think is real and not real.

I've decided to rely on science for my understanding of reality. I consider them the experts. In my educated opinion they are more reliable and objective. Science attempts to back up their claims with adequate evidence and sufficient reasons. They also evaluate and replicate their claims by other competent inquirers. Science will sometimes get it wrong, but it's still the best game in town.

I respect your "right" to defer to religious explanations, but I don't respect the decision to do so.

Don

Susan

In my first two posts yesterday, I succeeded in being just as authoritarian as I was accusing the existence-of-God debators of being. I apologize, and from here on out, I'll try to do a better job of following my own advice about respecting varying points-of-view. And maybe, in trying to wrap my brain around why this debate is so important to some of you, I will learn a thing or two.

Dolores Lear

Jacob to Don.
"..saying that you were born into a Christian family and a "Christian culture". You say you were then "Programmed" to be a Christian."

http://www.bing.com/search?q=train+up+a+child+in+the+way+he+should+go&FORM=SOLTDF&pc=SOLTDF&src=IE-SearchBox

Heterosexual Body Birth Children are Trained up/Programed, in the Way they should go, by their Parents, Religion, Country, and their Life Environment, to never depart from it.

Genesis: Eve Females were Reproduced by High Tech Cloning, using the Male Adams Rib. They were not Children to be trained up by their Parents with two different Genetic and Physical Human Bodies. The Male Defective Inherited Genetics were corrected by High Tech. The Female Genetic and Physical Body was a Clone Copy. They were Helpmeets, not Mates.

Why did the Equal Clone Humans, with High Tech Eternal Physical Life After Birth, begin Body Birth of UnEqual Human Children? This began Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth; Killing and Death began.

This Original High Tech Knowledge was lost, and became the Original Sin in Supernatural Religion and Myth about Supernatural Gods 'in our Image'.

Jacob to 'Member' Iggy:
"And no, I have not seen Jesus in a bowl of oatmeal.
How about you? Do you find truth in a bottle of booze?"

What is the Truth of Human Life? Visible and Invisible Atom and ElectroMagnetic Elements, in the Universe and on Planets? Will we ever Know Truth of What made the Elements we are made of?

Humans with High Tech Science today, at least Know Purebred Humans can have High Tech Eternal Physical Human Clone Purebred Life, After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships,

Is Human High Tech Pollution and Nuclear Bombs on land and sea, a Death Wish for Life on Earth?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill,

I will ask you again today as I will ask you in person when you come to the BlackDog Church on Jan 30th to speak to KCFreeThinkers.org - DO YOU HAVE ANY FACTUAL DATA TO SUPPORT THAT RELIGION IN AMERICA IS NOT SHRINKING/DYING IN NUMBERS OF BELIEVERS? Total? Not by a specific denomination or let's say Islam growing in the US and some "diversified" groups?

As I have already stated a few times, it is pretty clear that you are mixing and substitutiong "diversity, plethora" of many religious groups for the "actual factual" numbers of believers or spiritualists.

Study after study after study shows that the numbers of atheists and agnostics has grown over past 20 years - from 3-5% to 8-15%. If statistically the "hard core" non believers (atheists) and "inter" non believers (agnostics) are growing in studies, where does it leave Believers and Spiritualists???? - IT MEANS THEY ARE SHRINKING IN NUMBERS, i.e. metaphorically "dying".

Unless of course you are using "Biblical" notion of "dying" as "not dying" :o) - which is a misnomer by itslef. I have a feeling (let' me play with feeligns in this case though I have hard data to support my position) it is an "irrational" attempt to justify to yourslef and others that your "space alien" is better than others.

You are "willfully" overlooking "facts" in face of reailty and "finding new definitions", "redefining" words, facts and numbers. I'd like one day to maybe have you talk to KCFreeThinkers about this mental juggling - at least in the case of yours when you state religion is not dying/ or hardly dying.

OK, what numbers (if not 5-10% in 1-2 decades of decline) will constitute not dying of religion/spirituality in America? When Xianity changes/morphs into a deistic religion of "new age" Xianity, will that consitutte "death" or just "another level of understanding" of god's Truth and Word? At what stage does this "understanding" make religion of Xianity unrecognizable today as let's say mystic Xianity or "Universal" salvation is or will be to the people of the future or Xians of the past or even to Jesus?

Don't you think it's more useful to drop these games and concentrate on making the real world a more productive and friendly place to be?

Susan

http://www.doublex.com/section/news-politics/does-rick-warren%E2%80%99s-church-condone-domestic-violence

KCFreeThinker, it was actually me who posted the link (I'm re-posting it above) to Kathryn Joyce's article, "Does Rick Warren's Church Condone Domestic Violence? My husband hit me. The church took his side." The article, to me, was like a re-run of the experiences I heard about from a couple of friends who sought Christian counsel for dealing with their angry, controlling husbands.

I attribute much of the problem to the reluctance, of many conservative Christian churches, to avail themselves of all the secular information that's now available for helping women to get out of abusive relationships and break the cycle of abuse.

And, while it's not 100% impossible for these men to change, it's not something that anyone else can do for them. It can only happen if they are willing to acknowledge that THEY have a problem and stop blaming their wives for their abusive behaviors.

If people study the available information, it becomes obvious that individual counseling is essential, since couples counseling, for an INDIVIDUAL problem, simply tends to perpetuate the old dynamic of the abuser never taking ownership of his own problems. And his co-dependent wife remaining a co-dependent, trying to heal him when this is really something he needs to do for himself. (Continue)

Susan

(Continued) I think the reluctance, of many conservative churches, to accept secular instruction for dealing with domestic violence, stems from their misplaced-faith in the Church's, or the Bible's, role of leadership in improving marriage and family-relationships.

So, I think I actually agree with some people's prediction that religiousness is morphing into spirituality. For me, the Bible and Christianity have been kind of a stepping-off place for my spiritual flight into seeking Truth. We all start from somewhere, and those are my roots.

And I enjoy, and feel a need for, a continuing connection to my Christian roots. But I honestly CAN NOT see the Bible as a practical instruction manual for people seeking freedom from abusive dynamics in their homes and in their lives.

I realize some people find a feminist message in the Bible. And while I do love the passage where St. Paul says there is no distinction between Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free -- I can not honestly say that this makes the Bible a women's equality-promoting book (or compilation of books). Because I see the overall messages as predominantly sexist. (Continued)

Susan

(Continued) It seems like as long as a church insists that the Bible has the "last word" on healthy male-female relationships, that church is crippling itself from being able to offer any practical help to all the women (including the many minster's wives) who are being oppressed by their husbands.

Maybe people will accuse me of cherry-picking, or treasure-hunting -- but isn't that how we get to all the good stuff in life? People find some wonderful stuff at garage sales and thrift stores -- but they usually have to hunt for it: They don't buy the lot (unelss some tired person is saying they can have it all for $2.00). Maybe you think I'm insulting the Bible by comparing it to a thrift store -- but, you know, even if you're shopping at the mall you don't buy "the lot." You look for what you need, in the style and color you like, in the size that fits you, at the price you are willing to pay.

Occasionally, when I used to actually have money to invest in skincare products, I liked to buy some higher-end stuff I liked. In my old job, I ran into a mom who sold some high-end products, and I told her I couldn't afford the whole line but I remembered one product I really liked so I wanted to buy that. And she refused to sell it to me, she said it could have disastrous effects on my skin if I used it in combination with my cheaper products.

But I'd been doing that sort of thing FOR YEARS with NO ILL EFFECTS -- she's actually the first salesperson who was "conscientious" enough to refuse to sell me just one product (they usually tried to persuade me to buy the whole line -- but ultimately they'd sell me one thing if it was a choice between that and nothing).

And this idea that you have to swallow an ideology whole, seems just as controlling. I'll keep picking cherries, because cherries are good for us!

Jacob

Iggy, I see you are telling people to crawl under a rock and die out.
Again.
Seems a little hostile on the part of someone who wants people to come to their discussions, don't ya think? Frankly, if the discussions are represented by the nature of the rants you post here, I can think of a lot better things to do on Saturday night!

And its kind of sad that you keep talking about "Crazies". You do realize that there are a lot of people who think YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE, don't you?

Nah, you probably don't.

Don, I see you are talking about defering to the "experts" again.

And you keep saying you want proof, and yet you accept, apparently, that the universe in the product of undirected forces.

Well, several points come to mind.

A. Mainstream science talks a lot about the "Big Bang". But BAD NEWS. No one knows what that was, and the laws of science as we know them seem to break down when you reach that point.

B. Mainstream science concedes that Life comes from Life, and that Spontaneous Generation does not take place. Thats a tough one.

C. Mainstream science can not accunt for a mindless universe operating according to mathematical principles, an abstract mental concept.

D. Mainstream science can provide no basis for objective moral principle; of course atheists just bypass that with Moral Relativism. Only problem is, all those moral relativists here seem to MAKE A LOT OF JUDGMENTS. Odd, isn't it?

Face it Don, you never examined your Christianity, and you never willingly followed Christ, and now you have simply DEFERRED to science "experts" over your previous DEFERRING to other figures.

trapblock

Isn't it interesting that Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître came up with the 'Big Bang' theory. Like so many other foundational scientific advancements, it came from deeply religious people who saw God's handiwork in everything.

In the immortal words of a guy named Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind".

Religion will not be going anywhere, at least not until the consumation of time itself... which is up to God anyway.

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