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October 05, 2009


Just Thinking

"I thought the movement in the 1960s started some good and useful conversations -- certainly more interesting than most of the conversations started by the so-called New Atheists." - Bill Tammeus

I agree, Bill. The New Atheists on this blog are little more than bullies and thugs, intellectual midgets who think that threats, intimidation, marginalization, and harassment are valid techniques of debate. They're uneducated, undisciplined, and therefore ignorant of anything that requires discipline/work to master. They're barely able to parrot the most trivial thoughts of the learned.

For example, a rambling atheist on this blog who often pretends to know something about Scripture had no idea that God kills. It is absolutely inconceivable that they constantly claim knowledge of Scripture, and yet do not know that "the wages of sin is death." They obviously have not read Genesis if they know nothing about sin/death. No wonder that they're incapable of understanding much of anything about Christianity, especially their need for a Savior. If they don't know that God inflicts death, then they're completely ignorant of *the* most basic parts of Christianity and Judaism.

Another supposedly educated atheist chases his tail proving that nothing supernatural exists, by starting with the assumption that nothing supernatural can exist. That mistake was made by someone who hosts a show on "free"thinking! Unbelievable. When someone supports their position that nothing supernatural exists with an priori assumption that the supernatural cannot exist, at least they should be honest/intelligent enough to know they're *assuming* it.

Logic lesson #1: If you make an assumption, then either (a) admit that's your faith or (b) back it up. It's *never* up to someone else to shoot down your assumption--it's up to *you* to support it, justify it, or identify it as a statement of faith. Christians understand such simple logic. They're honest enough to admit to BELIEF/FAITH.

Will Graham

Bill, interesting point about the New Atheists.

And they will no doubt try to do what the Old Atheists did, if they manage to get the political power their followers keep predicting they will get.

But there will be one difference.

We will be ready this time.

Will Graham

"God is dead!"

"Nietzsche is dead!"

Dolores Lear

Bill's Reference: "Could God die again?" By Nathan Schneider, "Death of God theology was a 1960s phenomenon that casts light on the narrowness of the current debate"

GOD that made the LIFE Elements, Is Not Dead, or Life as we Know it would not be Alive.

God/Us in Genesis, Human Gods in our Image, in Religion and Myth, are not Dead. With High Tech Science they do have Eternal Physical Human Clone Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Jesus a Human God, in the New Testament, now with God/Us Humans in Space, is not Dead.

One God, Trinity Gods, and Multiple God Religions 'are' Dieing today, as God Religions died in the Past. The Trinity Religion of Father, Mother and Son, in Rome and Egypt in 300, are Dead Gods today.

The Atheist Population is increasing, as High Tech Knowledge replaces the Supernatural Teachings of GOD and God Aliens. Many people that believe in a 'God', is because of being trained up that Way as a Child, but do not attend Church today.

GOD the Source/Maker of the Atom, Electro-Magnetic Force and All Elements, Join and make Visible and Invisible LIFE, in the Universes. No Human could do this.

God/Us in Genesis, are High Tech Human Asexual Celibate Clones in our Image, and do have High Tech Eternal Physical Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships.

Jesus is a Celibate Male, whose Fetus was put into Mary's Womb, by God/Us. He did go Physically, out into Space with God/Us and is Alive today.

Humans today can Prove Our High Tech Ancestors in Genesis, and Jesus, are Alive today, but they are not GOD.

But when GOD is DEAD, so will the Universes and All LIFE Elements and Species Die Also.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Christian History Denier Just Thinking wrote>>>>>>>>>>> It's *never* up to someone else to shoot down your assumption--it's up to *you* to support it, justify it, or identify it as a statement of faith.

?????????????????????????? - I don't give a hoot about your space alien as guiding force, so it's up to me to support that I don't give a hoot and this is a statement of faith?

Ouch... Sounds like a twisted logic used by an attorney who is desperate to save his client from an impending conviction...

Your honor, though there are 30 video cameras in the house to demonstrate my client got the gun out of the case, creeped up to the room of the victim, opened the door, pointed the gun and a shot was fired, this doesn't mean he killed the victim, there are always gaps in between the frames (can this actually be if the tape is digital?), so it is not beyond reasonable doubt that someone esle pulled the trigger of the gun that my client was holding and pointing to the victim and while his finger was on the trigger.

In fact, someone esle in the time the frame moved pushed the finger of my client causing the gun to fire. Therefore, my client is innocent beyond reasonable doubt.

Just Thinking, you are "just thinking" like "god of the gaps" theorists. At some point, someone has to look you straight into your eyes and tell you "You are delusional" and "crawl under the rock"


JT is giving lessons on sin. From the bible, no less. And god kills sinners?

It’s the same old sham. A person dies and now the religious have to make a logical assumption; what has happened? Did the person sin and god killed this person or did god need another subservient follower in heaven?

What are the degrees of sin to get you killed by god or are they all the same?

Yesterday I was told god is going to kill me. If you mean some day I’m going to die, you are correct. It will be up to the living to conjure up what happened to me. Spiritualism is still strong and breeding onward.

I think it is amazing how the Xs forget their bloody past. Do some homework and take a look.

Bill posted, “Yes, he spoke of the benefit of forgiveness: "When they forgive they get release. . .then they can think right."

I believe some people call this closure. I think religion promotes codependence too much.

The talk about the new atheists recently is fun to read.

Look back thru history and see how issues were solved. The 60s, in the past century, is a perfect example. If you don’t speak out with your thoughts, nothing will happen. If you are for change it will always offend someone. Status quo(s) have never lasted.

Supernaturalism can only survive in comic book minds. Some will be offended by that statement. Why is that?

I don’t see how anyone has the correct interpretation of jesus’ mind. 34,000 sects of christianity. Which one is correct. Are there others? Are they correct? What about other religions? Are they correct? Or wrong? Is it jesus only, or god kills them?

Besides god, what else is considered, on this natural planet, to be supernatural?

To me it means what science does not know yet, if we ever will, and then attribute this to a spirit world instead of continuing thru a scientific method.

Maybe we need an attorney to figure this out.

Peace for the sake of Goodness Cole

adam harrison

One thing the "Free"thinkers...and if we don't have free will how are their thoughts free?...obviously don't understand in the scientific method;

Even the atheist Barbara Forrest has testified that the scientific method approaches phenomena from the standpoint of "Methodological Naturalism", not "Philososphical Naturalism".

Of course, any one who keeps using the "gap argument" would probably not understand what this means.

But KCF gives the game away when he says "I don't give a hoot".


He does not care about argument, history, science, or even philosophy.

This is simply a technique of disruption by ridicule and harrassment, which he has admitted elsewhere.

What I am waing for him to do is try and MAKE ME CRAWL UNDER A ROCK AND DIE.

It should be interesting to see him fail.

Just Thinking

We can always depend on you to be the same, KCFreeThinkers.org: You're not afraid to live without integrity, and on the edge of psychosis, where you invoke language about guns when you're trying to shut people up.

I'm certain that many things seem like twisted logic to you. But it is NONETHLESS, logic. Your 'feeling' about it all is an emotional reaction, a visceral reaction, one that is common among the intellectually immature who are challenged by the real complexities of this world for the first time. They always end up feeling that somehow it must be much simpler than people are making it. They want one-line platitudes to solve their problems and to explain everything, just like back in the good 'ole days of first grade. But those days are gone, never to return. The deeper you look at things, the more difficult it becomes to understand them. To the rank amateur, it seems 'twisted', but to those who are not afraid of hard work and discipline, it looks deep and profound.

You're maturing to the point where maybe one day you will eventually be able to accept the complexity of this world. Science started out with the assumption that the world was deterministic, and Scientists reached a direct contradiction. People assumed that identical things would occur under identical circumstances. But it is not so. It took hundreds of years to follow that evolution until a DIRECT CONTRADICTION was reached: the world is NOT deterministic. How could that be? The answer is not 'convoluted or twisted logic.' It's Truth arising out of experiment, theory, logic, and hard work. Unfortunately none of those is a friend of yours, and that's why all that you can muster is an emotional reaction.

THE WORLD IS NOT DETERMINISTIC. Accept it. Embrace. It's Truth: Science has serious limitations in a world where identical outcomes do not occur under *identical* conditions. Your God is not all-knowing. :)

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org


I think we'll need to meet with James Christensen and his minions (our own blog grown Christian History Deniers - Just Thinking, adamh/Will Graham) again and talk about the book we were supposed to discuss "The Greatest Show on Earth: Evidence for Evolution" last Saturday.

Looks like the discussion was diverted (by him mostly) onto the "gap theory of science", "how can you be sure?", "logical fallacies", "presuppositions", "apriori arguments (sounds like Just Thinking, one can think it's the same person - what are the chances of that) vs. actual facts of evolution and what can be "demonstrated"

He started with "why all the polemic" about religion in the book and it kind of went downhill from there. I've noticed he took many things personally and dogmatically:

* do I want him dead with rocks or guns I own?
* why am I threatening him and his relatives with Hannibal Lector? - Yes, this was ridiculously funny - he is dead serious about it!
* denigrating religion in public schools is prohibited by law - who says that the school disctrict will be denigrating it? - individials may even working for the school district but even kids can do it on their own
* you cannot have "presuppositions" and "false dichotemies" - just like Just Thinking is pushing - I wonder if they are related :o). I told him "I don't give a cr.p about god and can have whatever "presuppositions" I want as long as they are supported by facts - in this case evolution and not the magic dust that is sprinkled in the Universe and cannot be detected by any mechanism other than scientific inquiry which "doesn't equate" with the "magic dust"
* sience doesn't equate atheism

And then he denied he is "KC James" on Amazon who wrote a short somewhat "rational" review of the Dawkins' book while asking "why the polemic" about religion? - funny thing, his first comment was just that!

On Amazon.com there are a few other "Christensen's" (verified names by Amazon)- James B. Christensen and D. Christensen who also responded to his other reviews or had their own. I wonder if James B. Christensen and KC James are sock puppets of the same person, which he denied.

I love picking his brain apart! The Flying Spaghetti Monster and Hannibal Lector must have a special place in heaven for me!


the genocide in rwanda is not just a failure of the church, but a failure of the civilized world in general. the question is not just "where was the church," but also, "where was humanity?"

while i have not seen the film "as we forgive," it reads as though it also illustrates in a meaningful way what it REALLY means to forgive. in church, or rather in the church i used to attend as a kid, we were told that forgiveness is a virtue, but were never given any meaningful way of looking at it. we were told just to do it as christ did, but over time, i've realized that it is not that simple. that's a good question, though: COULD we forgive someone who murders our family, destroys our home, and subjects us to countless other atrocities? could we forgive the rest of the world for turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to our suffering? i don't think i could honestly answer "yes" to that question.

as for the "new atheists" thing... to a degree that's a fair criticism, but i think we're forgetting the reason for its existence. it does not exist to bridge the gap between believer and nonbeliever, nor to spark meaningful or interesting dialogue. it is a social and political movement with a definitive purpose. whether or not one agrees with their philosophy or social agenda is one thing, but to criticize it for not doing what it never meant to do is silly.

Dolores Lear

"..a rambling atheist on this blog who often pretends to know something about Scripture had no idea that God kills.
Another supposedly educated atheist chases his tail proving that nothing supernatural exists,.."

I accept that GOD, nor God our High Tech Ancestors, nor Jesus Kill. Body Birth Humans and Unbalanced Elements Kill.

The GOD that made the Elements of LIFE, that makes Life as we Know it, does not Kill Element LIFE. It has built-in Eternal LIFE.

No One Knows how the Elements came together to make Humans, but Evolution of the Original Elements into Life forms may be viable. What difference does it make? We are Alive.

Somewhere this High Tech Human Species Life, named God/Us Began or Evolved up to a High Tech Science, and Reproduced Male and Female Clone Caretaker Peace Species.

This Peace Human Species, did Colonize Life on our Planet Earth, and did Reproduce Female Clones from the Male Rib, to start another Base for their Lifestyle. God/Us said, Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Something (?) made the Clones Not Reproduced by Body Birth, start Reproducing Children by Body Birth. Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth began.

They became the Killer Species instead of the Caretaker Species.

Today Body Birth Humans have their Home Planet wired for a Nuclear 'Arm'ageddon, and the Judgment Day Planetary Fire with their Nuclear Waste and Bombs.

Is it Time to at least try a High Tech Translation of Religion and Myth, to see what we can Learn about our 'Literal' High Tech 'Supernatural' Past, and the Future Death of Earth.

Eternal Physical Life is for Living High Tech Clone Humans, on Planets and in Spaceships, not for 7 Billion Body Birth Dead Humans.

Just Thinking


I am not using a "gaps" argument at all. That's how KCFreeThinkers.org wants to cast it, because that's all he's been fed. So that's all he knows how to respond to.

No, I am asserting this currently accepted truth of Science: What will happen tomorrow is not determined through Science from what is happening today!!!

Even if you accept that only Science is at work, Science is still not enough to tell you what will happen tomorrow. Even if you could measure what is happening right now, at this one moment in time, precisely (which you cannot because of the uncertainty principle), then you still could not perfectly predict what would happen tomorrow. Science is not deterministic.

So any assumption that there is nothing else influencing this world on a regular basis is an assumption which cannot be proved using Science. It is an assumption which can only be classified as FAITH.

What's amusing is that Scientists used to assume perfect predictability and repetability. That's how the Scientific method was originally defined! Science then brought us to a DIRECT CONTRADICTION. So Scientists had to come up with brand new theories, ones that were no longer deterministic. The original version of the Scientific method had to be drastically altered, too, when old notions of repeatability were thrown out the door. Scientists long ago abandoned notions of perfect predictability and repeatability. Those are ancient notions that were *forced* out of the vocabulary of Scientists because of direct observation and direct contradiction.

So, I am challenging the assumptions of people who claim determinism based on Science. Only the ignorant can make such claims. Only the uneducated would dare to say that everything which happens in this world is determined by natural science. Those assumptions have proved false and contradictory.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org



An Atheist public policy organization today called for elimination of requirements in Senate legislation which would reimburse faith-based "healers" for their services.

The Senate Finance Committee has taken up the America's Healthy Future Act of 2009 which has an amendment titled "Religious Non-discrimination in Healthcare. The provision bans insurance companies from denying patients "benefits for religious or spiritual healthcare. Similar legislation, the Affordable Health Choices Act, has already cleared the U.S. Senate, and has a similar provision.

Dr. Ed Buckner, President of American Atheists, warned that the measure amounts to a public subsidy for certain religious groups.

"Any adult in the legislative or executive branch of the federal government, or of any state government, who wants to use unproven, unscientific 'remedies' should be free to do so," said Buckner. "But support for such irrational nonsense violates the separation of religion and government and the canons of good sense. Including faith-healing or other non-medical 'treatment' in health care legislation must be rejected."

Dave Silverman, Communications Director for American Atheists, said that Christian Science and other faith-based healers already receive public money, and that the policy is not based on good science.

"We need to spend that money on providing solid, fact-based medicine. Reimbursing the faith-healing industry wastes precious resources, and violates the separation of church and state."

adam harrison

Its hilarious to see that KCFreethinker claims to be stalking Jim Christensen all over the net!

And getting things wrong.


All I can say is that you aren't nearly as smart as you think! Bahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

I have only talked about it briefly, but apparently you were suckered into admitting that you are in fact the one who is posting the stuff about people shutting up and dying.

He wasn't sure himself. (I was! LOL!)

But he is now.

adam harrison

By the way, he says you are misrepresenting him but he frankly does not care about the Bill Tammeus blog.

Why not link to the recording you made so we can all hear it.

Better yet, lets see what Mr. Lunney has to say.

Just Thinking


You are exactly correct when you pointed out that the ability to 'choose' what to believe is something which cannot be addressed by Science either. Free will is most definitely an issue of spirit. A "free"thinker must be able to make choices or they are not free. But choices must be beyond Science; otherwise Science would determine one choice or the other for you, and there would be no choice or "freedom" at all!!

From a Christian point of view, we know that we *do* have free will. Why? Because we are held responsible for what we choose to believe. Those who choose to believe that there is no God, and that everything in the Universe randomly emerged from nothingness through some 'pinhole' in 'nothingness' are wrong, and will suffer.

Those who choose to believe that they have never sinned are wrong, and will suffer. Those who believe that they have sinned, but who choose to continue in that sin without ever repenting will suffer. Those who choose to believe that they cannot be forgiven are wrong, and will suffer. Those who choose to believe that they can be forgiven, who believe that there is a Way, will find the Way who is Jesus Christ.

Yes, we have free will, and we are held accountable for our choices of what we believe. We are held accountable for whether or not we want to turn from our sin.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Just Thinking, Adamh/Will Graham and Jim Christensen,

Let's go to a Muslim mosque one of these days to their Koran studies and have you all Christian History Deniers duke it out with them first on the god issue. It would be interesting to see first hand?

I'll watch and not say a word. I am sure "your" god will pursuade them "their" god is a false one.

Then next week you will watch and not say a word when I tell them to crawl under the rock and die out there.

Fair enough?
Christian History Denier wrote>>>>>>>>>..Why not link to the recording you made so we can all hear it.

I made a recording? This is news to me. How do you know?

I specifically told Jim Christian I was not making any recordings. He responded that they can be manipulated. I wish I actually made a recording and then burned the audio for him right there so he had the proof that it was not manipulated.

But then the "gap theorist" in him (as he openly admitted he was during first 5 min of discussion) would then say "How do I know that your recording software would not manipulate it automatically - every time "certain words" are used :o) even if the duration of the conversation would the the same as the recording showing.

You can just never win with the religious crazies like you are, you just have to take them on their faith - they are going to do and say irrational things.


I am glad I looked Jim Christensen in the eyes, put my right hand on his left shoulder as he was sitting next to me and told him he was delusional and the he needed to crawl under the rock and die there with his views.

I look forward to doing it again in the future!


funny. bill has offered us several perspectives from people who are the victims of atrocity, particularly along the lines of forgiveness in the face of even the worst kinds of inhumanity. that alone in worth discussing at length, from both religious /and/ non-religious perspectives. as i see it, doing that makes us mindful of such things...

...but all you narrow-minded idiots can think to do is bicker among yourselves about atheists?

Dolores Lear

"Besides god, what else is considered, on this natural planet, to be supernatural?"

Thank You Cole. What can Natural Born Humans, do that High Tech Humans today can do? It depends on what a Body Birth Person accepts as Supernatural.

Is flying in the air in Airplanes and Shuttles, and making Deadly Nuclear Waste and Bombs, Natural or Supernatural?

Is making the International Space Station, Natural or Supernatural?

Is reproducing all types of items in Manufacturing Plants, Natural or Supernatural?

Is operating on Humans with Regenerating Science, like Hip Replacement, and Pig Valves into Human Hearts, Natural or Supernatural?

I lived in a time when this when Face Lifts, Nose Jobs, new chins, etc., replacing a woman's face with a donor face, was not possible. Natural or Supernatural?

Is making a Human Fetus in the Lab by Immaculate Conception, and Cloning Animals, Natural or Supernatural?

Is building High Rise Apartment and Office Buildings Natural or Supernatural?

Is Indoor Plumbing, Talking Movies, Telephones, TVs, and Computers, and Cell Phones, Natural or Supernatural?

The list goes on and on, even for someone your age, but few Humans today are old enough to have lived in the Natural Days, even me at 87. We had an ice box instead of a refrigerator, but otherwise I lived through most of this also.

So Cole:
"Besides god, what else is considered, on this natural planet, to be supernatural?"

Just Thinking

>>>> "logical fallacies", "presuppositions", "apriori arguments (sounds like Just Thinking, one can think it's the same person - what are the chances of that) <<<< KCFreeThinkers.org

KCFreeThinkers.org lives in a scary world where any two people who use the same accepted terminology of logical thinking must be the same person! No wonder they think that the whole world is out to get them. Yes, there is a grand conspiracy against you by those who have cracked a book in critical thinking. You bet. There is a grand conspiracy to move you from emotional, uncritical thought into the world of rational thought. Yes, there is a conspiracy to get you to start thinking critically about the assumptions you made when you were in first grade.

Your way of connecting me with someone else in this ridiculous way reminds me of the joke about the Russian Revolution: The Russian Revolution started when the people realized that 'tsar' and 'czar' were the same person!

You're capable of critically examining your assumptions and of identifying your unfounded a priori assumptions, but it's going to make your brain hurt when you first start exercising it. No pain, no gain.

Honestly, your paranoid way of connecting me with someone else through terms such as 'a priori', 'presuppositions', etc. is laughable to anyone who has ever looked into critical thinking. It exposes only one connection: you know almost nothing about critical thinking.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Don't know if I can talk about forgiveness of atrocities, I'll decide when it happens to me, for now, I cannot - my family has not been killed off - except if you consider the crazy idea that god is responsible for killing people today left and right when they die through some magic dust mechanism like Just Thinking is proposing... Or maybe it's "Grim Ripper" who's going around? I have not seen him, have you?

If god lets atrocities happen and does "nothing" to prevent them what does it mean? Tsuniami, genoside, pandemics, drought, disiseases, children and pregnant mothers dying, planes falling out of skies...

But then when a baby falls out of 5th story and bounces off on the ground - it's a miracle? Whatever happened to other babies who got killed?

As animals looking for pattersn I think Christians are a very interesting example of irrationlity on these terms.

One person dies in a car wreck, while the other lived? An atheist survives teh car wreck and the believer dies? A believer survivies and atheists dies? Muslim lives and Xian dies? Xian lives and Muslims dies? Scientologist lives and Christian dies?

Miracles, god's atrocity? or Things just happen? Or someone did not have their wheel tightened up in the body shop when he had tires rotated the other day?

God's plan? Or would "bird's eye view of the world" make us mindful of such things and "rationally" look at the world where actions of others cannot be predicted, only approximated to give you just enough advantage maybe not to get killed today but live another day?


Bill, reading about the Rwanda genocide sure does put things in perspective, for those of us who sometimes have a hard time with forgiveness even while living in comfort.

About determinism -- some Atheists and Agnostics actually embrace INdeterminism. I just read a fascinating article by Tim Folger titled "If quantum theory weren't valid, no one would be walking around with cell phones or Palm Pilots. So physicist David Deutsch wonders this: Why do so many smart scientists ignore the larger implications of quantum mechanics?"

Deutsch asserts that just as atoms exist in multiple states -- so do we, and so does the universe. He therefore believes that we actually live in a MULTIverse.

I found the article very good, but it did contain a couple of misquotations -- the lower link is to Deutsch's clarifications.



adam harrison

ineely, have you noticed that on this MODERATED blog Bill allows threats to be made and to allow relatives of posters to be personally attacked.

What do you think of that?

adam harrison

KCF, do you think the fact that you told Jim Christensen that you were not making any recordings has any credibility whatsoever?

You are an admitted liar!

So how do we know you are not lying now? LOL!!!


Thinking of how Atheist Physcicist David Deutsch is willing to embrace indeterminism, reminds me of something I learned a while back -- that aTHEism doesn't totally rule out a belief that there may be some sort of a Deity.

One thing I like about Deutsch is his wholehearted admission that he forsees his (or science's) current theories ultimately being falsified down the line -- the value of the current theory is as a stepping-stone to a better and more accurate theory, which will also ultimately be disproved and replaced by something that is better yet. And on and on.

I see Deutsch as someone who's in love with the pursuit of Truth with a capital "T." And I believe he will find it.

While I can understand why many feel that the existence of suffering negates the possibility of the God promoted by Theists (One who loves each of us personally and is truly interested in our lives), I nevertheless believe in this personal God.

I simply can't NOT believe in Him, because of how my every need has been answered by Him. I'm not just talking about physical needs, but even my need for greater understanding of various issues. He keeps leading me to the people and sources I need to continue in my quest.

As I was making cookies a while ago, I remembered how Cole couldn't understand why some woman in a store would think "We need the bad times to appreciate the good times." At the risk of irritating Cole, the woman's comment actually makes a lot of sense to me. (Continued)

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