Recalling Reagan's theology: 7-4/5-09

SIMI VALLEY, Calif. -- For the Fourth of July this year I spent some time on Air Force One.

Well, I did it last week when I was here at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and Museum, where you will find "27000," a Boeing 707 (pictured here) that served as Air Force One for Reagan and six other presidents.

Although I found the museum well done and intriguing (even if Reagan wasn't my favorite presiident), I found my mind drifting back to a piece I wrote for The Kansas City Star when the Gipper was president. It was about how Reagan had turned into our most prominent public theologian.

I can't connect you to this old opinion piece because it was published even before the newspaper had an electronic library, much less a Web site. But I can tell you that it raised questions that still are relevant today.

Which is to say that it called into question the ways in which Reagan tended to marinate his speech in biblical language and in a certain kind of feel-good theology.

I recall mentioning that Reagan was fond of quoting from the book of Isaiah in the Hebrew Scriptures, but only verses starting with chapter 40. The first 39 chapters of Isaiah have a doom-and-gloom and judgment character about them, whereas all of that switches gears starting with 40.

And Reagan, who attended a Presbyterian church but who was more or less a generic Christian without a deep grasp of theological nuance, wasn't in to doom and gloom at all but into feel-goodism. Remember "Morning in America"? (But a friend who is president of the Disciples of Christ Historical Society reminds me that Reagan was raised a Disciple.)

Anyway, the point of the piece I wrote was that we as voters would do well to pay attention to ways in which presidential candidates use religion for political purposes. Boy howdy. Jimmy Carter did that before Reagan, of course, and other presidents did it after him, with perhaps George W. Bush being the most egregious.

So thanks to the Reagan museum for reminding me of how long I've been worried about this. And happy birthday, America.

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FOR GOD AND COUNTRY

Because I just spent some time in Ventura, I thought it appropriate for the Fourth of July to share this opinion piece that appeared Friday in the Ventura County Star, one of the sponsors of our recent gathering of the National Society of Newspaper Columnists.

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P.S.: We've just set a Sept. 10 date for the launch event for my new book, They Were Just People: Stories of Rescue in Poland During the Holocaust. For details, click here.

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ANOTHER P.S.: You can follow me now on Twitter at http://twitter.com/BillTammeus

Comments

[Dolores Lear]

Happy Fourth of July.

The Fourth of July is Celebrated as the founding, of the USA without a State Religion in 1776, after the Revolutionary War with England, with Freedom from the Catholic State Religion, for Protestants.

In 1860, After Lincoln was Elected President, Some of the States in the South, seceded, and made a Confederate Government, with their own President, money, armory, Etc.

A Civil War, (1861-1865) finally United the States back together; more States were added, up to 50 today.

The USA should have One Government, and One Set of Equal Rules for All Citizens, Straight, Gay, or Atheists, and, Freedom from a Federal and State Government Religion.

If the USA has Equality for all Citizens, Why does the USA Federal and State Governments have Christian Rites, Prayers, and Holidays?

The 50 United States should be Embassy's, not Separate Countries, with their Laws, Taxes, etc.

Why do States have extra Taxes and Laws for Citizens? How can the USA be United as One Government, with so many different Laws/Rules for Each Citizen?

When will USA/America become One Nation, with Equality and Liberty, and, The Pursuit of Happiness, with One Equal Set of Rules/Laws, for ALL Citizens?

In Time, will the USA be the Ruler of the Whole Planet of Added Countries, with their Local State, County, and City Laws and Taxes?

Should God Bless America, to be the Ruler of All Countries on Planet Earth?

God did Bless America, with the biggest Weapons Arsenal, and Military Bases, around the Planet.

When will God Bless the Peacemakers on Planet Earth, with One Equal Planet Government, without Weapons of Massive Destruction, Pollution, Killing, Wars, and 'Taxes'?

Sounds Like Heaven?

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

Celebrate your independence on July 4th by abandoning supersticions of Christianity!

*******YOUR NON SENSICAL BIBLICAL QUOTE OF THE DAY*********
I will let you find it on your own, but the there are plenty of quotes in the Bible where the space alien Yahwheh (aka god, father of Jesus) DICTATES THAT STONING FOR VIOLATING HIS LAWS IS SACRED AND RELIGIOUS LAW.

NPR just covered a new movie that came out about this. The harrowing climax in the new film The Stoning of Soraya M. depicts a woman being brutally stoned to death after she's falsely accused of marital infidelity.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106092195

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Reagon was part of the beginning of all this mess with religion and the GOP. We have a secular constitution. Nowhere is the mention of Christ in our lasting documents.

I understand our Forefathers as Deists.
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
-- Benjamin Franklin, the incompatibility of faith and reason, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)
Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin (attributed: source unknown)

Some fun facts about independence day:
http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext_4thofjuly?cid=6803

Peace For the Sake of Goodness

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

John Adams (1735-1826)
Second President of the United States (1797-1801)

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

Peace for the Sake of Goodness

[Will Graham]

Iggy/KCFreethinker...no where does Jesus advocate stoning; in fact, he opposed any attemts to do so.

And I understand the atheists being upset with REAGAN, since he was instrumental in BRINGING DOWN THE MOST MURDEROUS OFFICIALLY ATHEISTIC STATE IN HISTORY.

If not for him, they would still be killing and maiming Christians.

And COLE, brush up on your history...while some "Forefathers", were Deists, many more were Christians, and none were atheists.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Can somebody show our American concept of liberty came from Luke 4.

Lincoln was probably a Deists, too.

What is to be, will be, and no prayers of ours can arrest the decree.
-- Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Mary Todd Lincoln in William Herndon's Religion of Lincoln, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beleifs of Our Presidents, p. 118
The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.
-- Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis in "Lincoln the Freethinker"

Peace For the sake of Goodness Cole

[popseal]

Tammeus' theology.....pop-culture doctrine is easy to spot. There is no conviction except that there is a commitment to no conviction. Rock n'roll church, blue jean preachers, multi-media 'worship' facilitators, no conversion, and a near total Biblical illiteracy are the hallmarks. Moral certitude based on anything Biblical is considered the greatest sin because it smacks of intolerance. Intolerance in Tammeus' theology (I use the term in the loosest sense) is the silent acceptance of any behavior regardless of its degrading and destructive consequences. In the same theological ball park, we find Rick Warren as the most public of these emergent concepts. Far too many people in this increasingly reprobate culture really love it....hence the reprobation! The strongest defense of the Judeo-Christian ethic and spirituality over "Tammeism" would have to be the current faldarall over the death of a pathetic, surgically altered, sexual predator, known as the King of Pop. It's as though they've lost their deity.

[Susan]

popseal, I'm trying to understand what you mean by saying "Intolerance in Tammeus' theology ... is the silent acceptance of any behavior regardless of its degrading and destructive consequences." Did you mean to say "tolerance" here? And you equate Tammeus' theology with the theology of Rick Warren, who is part of the Southern Baptist Convention?

And what do you mean by "the current faldarall over the death of" Michael Jackson -- and why the insults? Are you saying it's "nonsense" that many are mourning his death? It's true that he was accused of being a sexual predator -- but he was found not guilty. And I don't know anything about this personally -- do you? I think it's best to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe there was a time when I assumed "where there's smoke, there's fire" -- but that was before my husband came out of a men's room at a park, and was humiliated by a child's mother (upon seeing my husband, after apparently thinking her young son had been in the restroom alone) loudly yelling in to ask if her son was okay, and if dh had been "touching" him. Thankfully the boy truthfully answered no, he hadn't been touched by anyone. But the whole incident really shook up my husband, and he felt some of the men in this woman's group were staring at him like they wanted to beat him up, just because he was human and had to use the restroom.

This incident has really made me aware of how careful men have to be: even using a public restroom is a crime, if a young boy happens to come in while you are in there. Some people are THAT ready to assume that all males are sexual predators.

[Susan]

Bill, about the article by Michael Greywitt: I enjoyed learning about how our founding fathers studied Luke 4 and Galations 5 for guidance -- and about how Benjamin Franklin instituted the practice of prayer to help everyone move past their partisan disagreements. But I didn't like the way Greywitt used his own interpretation of Christianity to promote his own political agenda.

It's interesting that he's opposed to universal health care. Isn't California one of the worst states to live in if you're poor and sick? Maybe someone here knows more about this. I recall, years ago, meeting a woman on the bus who said she lived in California, but had come to Kansas City for the express purpose of having her baby. Because she and her husband couldn't afford health insurance, and in California if you're not insured, the hospitals won't take you.

If this is true -- if there are so many poor people in California who can't get health care -- why ON EARTH would a Californian be opposed to universal health care? I think it would give more choice than it would take away -- at least for those of us who can't afford private insurance.

And Greywitt seems to be equating religion with morality -- and saying that it's the only thing that will get people to temper their passions. Yet the non-religious people I know don't seem to be crazy and lawless.

Of course, I don't equate God with religion. I agree with Reza Aslan that religion is the language we use to talk about our experiences with transcendance. It's "our" language for talking about and describing God as we understand Him. But our understanding keeps growing -- and God is way beyond wherever we are at at any point in our language.

With this in mind, I think a nonreligious person who wants to know and live according to the truth, can be following God every bit as much as a religious person can.

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

Continuing reading John over the weekend and would like to present to you your next
*****NONSENSICAL BIBLICAL QUOTE*********

John(8:7) "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Jesus tells those who'd like to stone to death an adulteress that whoever among them that is without sin should "cast the first stone."

Good advice -- but it directly contradicts the teachings of the Old Testament (Lev.20:10).

If that wasn't a good law then, why did God make it? Can any of you crazies answer this? Besides the usual "the world had to be taught by tortchure of people to learn to love the word of god" - did I miss something? Xian crazies and perhpas "normal" Xians, how do you interpret the "truthiness" of this sacred word of god or "inspired by god" - stoning people to death?

Has god since changed his mind? Surely, Jesus says it is not kosher.

If so, shouldn't it then be removed (along with most of the OT) from the bible? I mean COMPLETELY DELETED - like laws today are when changed?

Also, Jesus said NOT A SINGLE OLD LAW IS TO BE ABANDONED, he has COME TO FULFILL THEM - i.e. implement and make sure they are enforced and through that/him his father's kingdom comes. I will let you find the quote where Jesus says not a "single letter" of the Old Laws is to be changed.

So, should it be Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

or should it be John 8:38

[Will Graham]

When Igor Dybal announes a ****NONSENSICAL BIBLICAL QUOTE****
he is letting you know that the way he quotes it NONSENSICAL.

I.E., he is QUOTEMINING and ignoring context. For example, when Jesus speaks of Fullfilling the Law he is not saying he is implementing them, he is saying he is completeing their purpose.

Iggy, I will let you find the qutoe where Jesus explains this.

By the way, did you know that although the Jews had over 600 laws, we in our oh so superior society have (when you count the Code of Federal Regulations, and State and City laws) over 6000 governing OUR lives...and that is not even counting IRS regulations!

Taxes, when Federal, State, City, Property, Sales and various hidden tazes can take over 40 per cent of your income.

God only asked for 10 per cent! LOL!

By the way, many of those 6,000 laws carry serious penalties, including death and years in a federal ass pounding insitution.

What? You say you didn't know? Sorry! Ignorance of the law is no excuse! Hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!

[Susan]

Iggy, the way I see the legalism of the Hebrew Testament, is that after man chose independence FROM God over interdependance and relationship WITH God, man got scared of the precariousness of feeling totally alone and defenceless against whatever might happen. In truth, God never left man: it's kind of like a toddler thinking he's going off on his own and suddenly he gets scared and cries for Mommy -- but really she was keeping an eye on him all along, and just allowing him to feel his independence.

Anyhow, I think man needed some specific guidance because of no longer living in communion with God -- therefore God provided some helpful rules about diet and cleanliness ... but then the people recording all this got carried away and added some "helpful" stuff of their own, which seemed to them like it was coming from God because it felt so right to them from where they were at in their own minds ...

I know you see it as cherry-picking for me to set aside certain things as being more culturally created -- while hanging onto other things as the Word of God. I see it more as treasure-hunting. Because I believe there IS a God who loves and communicates with us, but I also believe we're human and fallible, and our understanding is limited by our own shortcomings and lack of knowledge.

There is also some legalism (or focus on God as punitive) in the Christian Testament ... and I see most of this as people not trusting people, and worrying that if everyone felt truly loved and safe and accepted just as they were, they wouldn't be "motivated" to do the right stuff. (Continued)

[Susan]

(Continued) Of course, I'm still only human and will keep right on discovering areas where I was wrong or had incomplete knowledge yesterday (and today is the yesterday of tomorrow). Undoubtedly some things I feel sure of today, I will tomorrow find I was wrong about, or find I didn't comprehend completely.

I think this is part of what it means to not be too trusting in our own understanding -- but rather to trust that there IS complete truth, and that God will help us to keep drawing closer to it (and Him) -- IF we really want to know Truth ("Knock and the door will be opened" ... "Seek and you shall find").

I've just started reading Daniel C. Dennett's "Breaking the Spell," which Cole has so graciously loaned to me. And as I'm reading, I'm realizing that Dennett is doing here exacly what I'm wanting to do in my own life: analyze which aspects of my faith are simply outgrowths of Western culture, so I can lift out the gems -- the aspects that are really and truly of God.

I realize that in Dennett's case, he's not trying to lift out what's really and truly of God, since he doesn't believe in God. I think what he is looking for is evidence, yes or no, as to whether religions provide some positive helps for the world and its problems. Or whether religion is part of the problem and part of what's blocking the world from getting together on solutions.

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

Which portion of Leviticus do you chose to live by and which to ignore?

Even when it comes to OT Jesus said not a single letter of the old law is to be abolished as he has come to fulfill/implement it - He was a Jew himself, hence OT had to apply to him then and in perpetuity.

I keep hearing from ministers (who are clearly missing this passage, misleading their parishioners or plain lying - JESUS DID NOT ABANDON THE OT.

He himself chastised folks for not killing kids who are rebellious to their parents in response to his not washing his hands before meal and violating OT laws. I'll let you find the quote.

So, Jesus clearly ENDORSED KILLING OF UNRULY CHILDREN AS COMMANDED IN OT - plus he says not to abandon OT, hence, ministers should know and ARE ACTUALLY LYING TO THEIR CHURCH MEMBERS ABOUT NON APPLICABILITY OF OT TO TODAY.

Dear Christians, when are we going to hear on the news that you followed Jesus' advice to kill children who are unruly towards their parents?

Jesus said it's OK. Can any of you crazies (I am sure there are minsiters out here reading this) wrap your brains around it?

Cole, I think it's time for us to chose another Bible study to go to. Any of you Xians here on this blog have one you'd like to open up for "evil and vile" folks who said in their heart there is no god? You know "nothing" we ever do is good, and "everythign" is vile and evil - yep, this is your Bible talking.

Will Graham/adamh/grady? - let's have your Bible study crashed? Do you have one in your church?

Please, relate to your glorious leader and master debater James Christensen that I am ready to call him when he says he is ready to invite us to come to his church's Bible study.

[Dan Beyer]

The United States was created by mostly CHRISTIANS using the JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE as their blueprint. Because most liberals know very little about this nation's real history they rely on revisionist lies. Like the one that Lincoln was a deist. Not true, he was firmly a Bible believing follower of Christ, just like most of the Founding Fathers were.

Bill Tammeus, instead of sharing your opinions about who was or wasn't your favorite president, why don't you set these people who post here straight about the true religious history of our country.

[Will Graham]

Once again, Iggy is making NONSENSICAL Bible quotes. Jesus NEVER endoresed killing unruly children. Neither did the Old Testament. I will let you find the quotes that show you have misrepresented the Bible...both the Old and New Testaments.

KCFreethinker/Igor Dybal/Cole Morgan...what do you mean its time to choose "another" Bible study to go to?

You have never provided any evidence whatsoever that you attended ANY of the Bible studies you bragged about.

I mean, you don't even go to meetups any more!

The hundreds and hundreds of new members never showed up!

The Atheist Relief fund is BROKE...in fact, it does not exist!

The Postcard Campaing has POSTAGE DUE! Hahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!

The Blood Drive has dried up!

BUT IN SPITE OF IT ALL...James Christensen STANDS BY, READY FOR YOUR CALL! Even though he called you, at your request, but you wouldn't call back.

So, call him, and he will give you directions to his Bible study.

We LOVE YA MAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN!!! We are just tired of the lying.

Call the Master Debater! He can help you.

And, of course, you are always welcome to attend Bible Studies at the First United Methodist Church of the Resurrection if you don't have the guts to call.

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

DOUBLE WHAMMY TODAY...

*********CHRISTIAN LOONEY ALERT FOR WILL GRAHAM********** AND *******YOUR NONSENSICAL BIBLICAL QUOTE OF THE DAY********

JESUS CALLS FOR CHILDREN WHO CURSE THEIR PARENTS TO BE KILLED PER GOD'S DIVINE WORD.

Aren't you Christians a bit too old to have an imaginary friend?

Matthew
15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
********************************
15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
********************************
15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating.

He defends himself by attacking them for NOT KILLING DISOBEDIENT CHILDREN ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENTS "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21)

So, JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW/VALIDATE THE LAW/IMPLEMENT THE LAW AND THROUGH HIS TEACHINGS ESTABLISH THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON THIS EARTH.

So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed?

You decide.
_____________________

Will Graham,
You are on! I am interested to come to the Bible study where you will be, not "some" Bible study at irst United Methodist Church of the Resurrection.

Please, let me know person at iggykc@gmail.com at which one of these studies you will be.

Also, please, have your Master Debater and Glorious Leader James Christensen contact me at the same e-mail address with the schedule of his Bible study that he attends. I will call him to confirm I am coming.

[Dolores Lear]

Cole:
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815"

Me.
The GOD of Nature Elements, is the Maker of the Atom, ElectroMagnetic Force, and All Elements that make Life as we Know it in the Universes.

This Nature GOD, not in our Human Image, was copied by Past Humans without High Tech Knowledge, and translated the word 'God' to explain all the different 'Supernatural' Writings, called Religion and Myth.

The Religious Lord God/Us in Genesis, are a High Tech Male and Female Clones Species, are in our Human Image, and do have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Our High Tech Ancestors, who on another Planet, Evolved to use High Tech Purebred Clone Reproduction, and travel in the Universe in Spaceships.

This Peace God/Us, walked and talked with the Adam and Eve Clone Society, and with Jesus. They are not the Killer Gods also in Religion and Myth.

The Planetary Flood buried the Killer God, the Noah/Atlantis Society's High Tech Civilization, in the new Top Strata. We still keep digging up megalithic remains and bones.

Will High Tech Humans keep putting Nuclear Bombs on land and sea, to set up the Biblical Last Days 'Arm'ageddon War? Killer Human Gods do this, not Peace Gods.

Will our High Tech Planetary Killer God Society today, keep making Toxic Pollution, Oil Spills, and Nuclear Waste, that will ruin our Eco System and Ozone Canopy?

This Will 'Be' the fuel for the Biblical Planetary Judgment Day Fire.

To Be or Not To Be, that is the Question today.

When the Land is Burned off, and the Eco System destroyed, Life as we Know it cannot continue, and Earth will be a Dead Planet, with No Atmosphere, like Mars.

[Dolores Lear]

Dan Beyer:
"Bill, ... why don't you set these people who post here straight about the true religious history of our country."

Me:
What is the True Religious History of our USA/America Country? There were many Humans living in North and South America, before 1776. What was the Religion then? Freedom of Religion?

Why was a religion necessary after 1776? Especially a Protestant Religion?

Because the majority of persons in Congress were Protestants?

Because Protestant Icons, Holidays, and Religious Prayers, with 'In the name of Jesus, Amen.' were added to all branches of the Federal and State Governments.

Because the majority of persons in Congress, and the Citizens were Protestants?

What happened to Religious Equality to all Citizens, with Other Religions, and No Religion? They could have it in their homes and their temples? But not in their Government rituals?

The Protestant Citizens had Religious Freedom, in the USA Federal/State Religion, from Catholic and all other Religions in the Protestant USA.

This was The Reason they fought the Revolutionary War.

http://www.bing.com/search?FORM=SOLTDF&q=Pledge+of+Allegience&src=IE-SearchBox

The Pledge of Allegiance and In God We Trust on money, were added in the 1900s.

Some of the Founding Fathers, were Not Protestants. Who Brainwashed Citizens into accepting that All Citizens, Religious or Atheists, had Freedom from Religion in the USA/America Government?

Again "Bill: ...why don't you set these people who post here straight about the true religious history of our Country."

[Will Graham]

Susan, I hope you were not told that Dennet's work "Breaking The Spell" is an objective attempt to examine religion.

Quite the contrary, Dennet's mind is made up. He is out to eliminate religion from human life, and if you read his earlier book "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" he explains that the most religion deserves is to be preserned in ZOOS...and that is his word. ZOOZ.

He clearly stated that teaching religous beliefs to children is child abuse, and you know what happens to child abusers. They are locked up.

Of course, you need to realize the Denett is one of the New Atheists...in fact, he is one of the leaders, "The Four Horsemen" as they call themselves, Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens.

In no way are they trying to "study" religion, and their minds are made up.

Like Iggy's.

Iggy, for example has a single tracked mind on this issue...a BIRD BRAIN if you will...and there is NO EVIDENCE THAT COULD CONVINCE HIM of the truth of Christianity.

It would not matter what it was, given his assumptions, he would not believe it.

Anyone disagree? CITE ME ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT COULD CHANGE IGGY'S mind, at least in thery.

YOU CAN'T.

By the way, IGGY HAS NOT CALLED THE MASTER DEBATER FOR DIRECTIONS TO THE BIBLE STUDY!!!

[Susan]

Iggy, I found the verses in Matthew 15 where the religious leaders criticised Jesus and His disciples for not doing the handwashing -- and if you read the whole section, it's pretty clear that what Jesus was getting onto them about was their custom of letting people get out of helping their parents in their old age, because all they needed to say was, "Any money that might have been available to help you, I've already given as a gift to God."

Really, Iggy, I guess I just need to accept that you are like adamh/Will in that you love lifting out certain statements of your opponents (or in this case your "opponent" is the Bible, or Jesus), and presenting them in such a way that they seem to be saying what they're really not saying.

This is no different from Will/adamh saying things like, "Let's record this for posterity: Susan says babies should come first in any bioethics debate -- but only when you are breastfeeding them, not when you are aborting them."

From here on out, I'll try to accept that this is just a silly game you guys like to play. I seriously wish we could have some real discussions here -- but I guess Red Biddy, Lynne, and Cole are pretty busy. And, Iggy, sometimes you really do say some thought-provoking things. I guess at the moment you're just having too much fun playing with Will/adamh.

[Dolores Lear]

How has Christian Ethics influenced the Humans, that have led our Country in Federal and State Governments?

Some Presidents had mistresses in modern times, like Presidents Roosevelt and Eisenhower. Some Presidents were divorced.

Many Male Governors have had Sexual problems with females and males. Governor Rockefeller died in his mistress' arms, during the act. So far no rumors on Female Governors.

Some Congressmen had affairs, and at least one had a child with his mistress, and he and his wife stayed married.

Many of the straying Congressmens wives stayed with them, like Hilary stood by Bill while he was President. How many were divorced?

So what are the Christian Values in Government? Fornication and Divorce?

Is the Pollution of all types including atomic and nuclear, and oil spills, that cover our Planet, Sin? And Nuclear Bombs that are on land and sea?

Why is Christian America leading the Way! What has this Killer Lifestyle to do with the Christian Religious Icons and Holidays, and Mouth Worship in temples made by Human Hands?

GODs Temple is the Universe and our Planet and our Bodies and All LIFE visible and invisible. Who Takes Care of GODs Life on Earth?

Who are the Earth Gods, in Genesis in our Human Image? GOD is not in the Human Image. So who is the Lord God, Creator of Life on Earth, as we Know it?

Our High Tech Human Ancestors from Space that Colonized Earth 'in the beginning'? What were their Morals? Human Equality and No Killing?

What is a Good and Moral Nation? Is there Any on Planet Earth?

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

Susan wrote>>>>>>>>Iggy, I found the verses in Matthew 15 where the religious leaders criticised Jesus and His disciples for not doing the handwashing -- and if you read the whole section, it's pretty clear that what Jesus was getting onto them about was their custom of letting people get out of helping their parents in their old age, because all they needed to say was, "Any money that might have been available to help you, I've already given as a gift to God."

Susan,
I am not arguing with what's coming after what I have quoted and what you pointed ou. - I AM ARGUING THAT WHAT JESUS SAID IN HIS OWN WORDS BEFORE THAT ***ABOUT KILLING UNRULY AND DISOBEDIENT CHILDREN*** IS SUPPORTED BY THE OT AND JESUS USES THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE OT SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD BE PRACTICED.

Is he saying that killing disobedient children SHOULD NOT BE PRACTICED? - please, read Matthew again. On the contrary, he INVOKES the OT specifically related to it to show them their "wicked" rules of today are well, "wicked" compared to OT's laws.

Killing uruly children vs. taking care of the parents - these are apples and oranges, Susan. I am giving you specific quotes from OT that Jesus is referring to, you are telling me that I am not looking at the whole picture of the chapter.

Susan, at some point, "insanity of delusional thinking" needs to stop - "you need to understand the word, then the verse, then the chapter, then the book, then the Holy Spirit, then the Universe, then the mind of god we cannot udnderstand" (cause it is said "rely NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING" in the Bible".

Unfortunately, logical conclusions (in my humble opinion) that are so obvious are escaping you - and that is OK. As a freethinker and Christian you have your own version of "Truthiness" and I accept you for what you are - YOU ARE ALREADY VASTLY DIFFERENT FROM THE CRAZIY XIANS ON THIS BLOG and this is good enough for me.

Once again, I was referring to Jesus USING OT TO ILLUSTRATE THE POINT THAT OLD LAW OF KILLING CHILDREN WHO DISRESPECT THEIR PARENTS IS OK.

Do you see that the same way I see it? - because he says so. If you don't see it this way, then the 5 posts for the day will not be enough to go over it.

Either way, take a look again at Jesus' words and then look up the OT quotes I gave you - this is what he is relating to. Yes, Jesus as a Jew was under OT commandments - i.e. to kill unruly children and he pointed this out.

[Dan Beyer]

Whoa Dolores Lear! You're dumping a lot of stuff here and I'm sure nobody is really reading what your posting. If you have a question please ask it and I will try to answer them one at a time.

[Susan]

Iggy, yes, I do realize that Jesus made no attempt to negate that law about killing disobedient children. And yet, when the woman caught in adultery was brought to him, he said he that's without sin should cast the first stone. I strongly believe His response would have been the same to a disobedient child, right down to the "go and sin no more." And I do agree with Will that Jesus fulfilled the law by completing its purpose -- not by pushing everyone to carry out all its punishments.

I see its purpose, and HOW Jesus completed/fulfilled its purpose, somehwat differently than Will does. Because I believe the law was man's means of trying to feel some sense of control over his surroundings (as in, if I jump through these hoops, God "has" to come through for me when I need help). I do believe that some of the law started out as God's advice for healthy living ... I just think it got embellished by wellmeaning scribes.

For instance, just as some Muslim extremists feel they are doing their sisters and daughters a favor by killing them if they lose their virginity outside of marriage, because of what crummy lives they'd have if they lived as "damaged goods," so some Hebrew scribes undoubtedly thought that having a woman with a suspicious husband eat dust, and be pronounced innocent if she didn't get sick, would resolve marital conflicts.

Anyhow, the law gave "independent" man some semblance of control -- but Jesus came to help man find his way back into an interdependent relationship with God, wherein man could commune with and hear directly from God without needing a bunch of rules to follow.

By the way, Will or adamh -- we Americans may have more laws to follow, but I seem to pretty effortlessly follow them. The Hebrew laws may be fewer, but it would require some major lifestyle changes for me to follow them. I'll take the American justice system over a theocracy, any day of the week.