Making sense of Holocaust deniers: 7-6-09

A few weeks ago I told you about a new online Jewish magazine called Tablet, suggesting that you might want to sample its wares.

It was better advice than even I imagined.

(This photo of a crematorium, by the way, I took at the Majdanek death camp near Lublin, Poland.)

Tablet has just finished running a fascinating four-part series of articles about Holocaust denial and two of the most prominent American voices of that denial, Mark Weber and Bradley Smith. The series is by Mark Oppenheimer, a Tablet contributing editor and the author of Wisenheimer, a soon-to-be-published memoir about public speaking.

I'm going to give you links to the four parts separately because I found that in one case it's difficult to get from the bottom of one part to the top of the next.

Part one of "The Denial Twist."

Part two of "The Denial Twist."

Part three of "The Denial Twist."

Part four of "The Denial Twist."

What I found so intriguing about Oppenheimer's reporting and his analysis is that he did the necessary leg work to sit down with these deniers, look them in the eye and try to grasp what motivates them and how they can possibly misunderstand the world so profoundly. He humanizes them -- or at least allows their humanity to show through. You may think that's an impossible task when it comes to deniers, and that it might even lead some people to take these men seriously. But, in the end, it serves to make them seem even sadder and more out of touch with reality.

(Two small examples: Oppenheimer verifies that Smith had a Jewish lover for several years and that Weber has a sister who converted to Judaism and still is Jewish today. Imagine that.)

Oppenheimer concludes that "Weber is a lowly fraud," and says Weber and Smith are trapped in a system that encourages them and others to "turn their brainpower toward half-baked biblical exegesis that makes sense according to its own hermetic logic."

In the end, Oppenheimer says, "Holocaust denial is, like more benign species of fundamentalism, a well-furnished playground for immature and sometimes deranged intellects. It isn’t necessarily about Jews, or even about the Holocaust; it’s about finding something to do with one’s mind. These people aren’t stupid or cynical: Smith does seem to have a noble libertarian streak, and Weber is smart and industrious. And if they could scale the walls that they’ve built for themselves, and look around at the world outside the playground, they might even do some good."

So I commend to you the whole series.

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A NEW ENCYCLICAL FROM B-16

Pope Benedict XVI has signed a new encyclical that is expected to be published soon. It's about economics and the need to remember how the poor are affected by financial systems and decisions. This pope's previous two encyclicals have been quite well done, and I look forward to having the English text of the new one available soon. I may have more to say about it then. If nothing else, papal encyclicals have the potential to set the theological agenda not just for Roman Catholicism but for all of Christianity.

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P.S.: We've now set a Sept. 10 date for the launch event for my new book, They Were Just People: Stories of Rescue in Poland During the Holocaust. For details, click here.

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ANOTHER P.S.: You can follow me now on Twitter at http://twitter.com/BillTammeus

Comments

[Will Graham]

Its ironic that Holocaust Deniers use the same tactics to deny the Holocaust that the atheists do to attack the historical Jesus.

For example, prove to me that Hitler ordered the Holocaust.

By producing, or at least directing me to, an original document in which HITLER HIMSELF gave the orders to set up gas chamebers and burn the bodies.

[Will Graham]

Notice Oppenheimer's own bigotry, as he compares Holocaust deniers to fundamentalists, calling them "deranged intellectus", when it is his atheisic buddies who are actually USING THE SAME METHODS.

Is he even aware that the HOLOCAUST PERPETRATED by Officially Atheistic Governments in the Old Soviet Union killed more than 20 Million believers, and that is not even counting the millions of others killed for poltical reasons.

I charge that OPPENHEIMER IS A DENIER himself!

[Will Graham]

From a Highway Billboard...

"If God doesn't matter to him, do you?"

http://imgur.com/DGEfA.jpg

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

It appears that any "deniers" of "rational events/explanations" typically hold the bar for proof rather low no matter how you cut it. Of course, for those of us who hold the "ultimate" truth :o) of "rationality" - our bar is set just where we want it and that's all I have to say abou that.

Deniers are aplenty - Holocaust deniers, Flat Earthers, Young Earth Creationists, alien abductees, palm/Tarot card and fortune readers, psychics, leprechaun worshipers, Muslims, Jews and Christians. My favorite deniers are Raelians and Scientologists. I have a few aquaintances who are Scientologists, some of them were in my dentist's office and my dentist was also a Scientologist a few years ago. It is fascinating to talk to them from a psychologica perspecitve - these cult members remind me a lot of the "crazy" Chritians on this blog.

Psychologically, it's interesting because we are all 99.999999999% identifical genetically, ONLY OUR UPBRINGING decides on what version of "irrationality" or "truthiness" we will embark on.

It is rather obvious that all people in the world (unless they are mentally challenged) accept some "universal" "truths" - if you jump off a tall building you will be hurt, don't stand in front of a train, etc.

We all agree that "material" world - we all can agree on - is here and has physical properties. All other "immaterial" things are just that.

I think that there is a lot in common that "rationa" people have wiht "irrationalists" and "deniers" - we all want to live by the "truths" that make sense to us.

Some of us just care more if these "truths" are really "true" :o) or imaginary or passed on to us by some alien creature named Yahwehe (aka god, father of Jesus) or are concocted in the minds of the Holocaust deniers.

It's all about the bar of proof.

May Hannibal Lector clone you all a new brain every day!

[Will Graham]

Oh, and I notice in the last paragraph he also quotes a professor of his who compares fundamentalists...since he has already compared them to holocaust deniers...as "sh*t" that you scrape off your shoes.

So fundamentalists are sh*t.

Sound like the Iggy/Susan duo.

He shudders at the thought of the deniers, and I have NO DOUBTS NOW about what the atheists have planned for me if they get control.

[Will Graham]

Iggy, the Master Debater stands by for your call!

He has e mailed you before...you then blocked his emails.

He called you, but you refused to return the calls.

So YOU HAVE TO CALL by 5:00 P.M. today if you want to arrange "crashing" our bible study!

I predict you won't because you know that in a real intellectual free for all you would be humiliated by him.

[Dolores Lear]

Red Biddie (last night):
"Dan, but if you want to try and sort out Dolores's odd views you might try persuading her that evolution is a fact - something she doesn't "accept" yet !"

Me:
I do say I accept Evolution on another Planet. Those Natural Born Humans, Evolved up to High Tech like we have today.

They became High Tech Science Equal Birth Humans, by by Cloning Females from the Male Rib.

And perfecting High Tech Space travel, and Colonizing more Planets with Perfect Male and Female Human Beings. They are Higher 'Beings', but still the Human Species.

Today, High Tech Humans do make Humans Fetus in the lab, and Clone Animals.

These High Tech Clone Humans, God/Us in Genesis, did Evolve to traveling in Space, and Colonizing Planets with Equal Male and Female Birth Clones, in their Human Image.

The Adam and Eve Clones began Body Birth Children. Why? Sexual Human Bondage, has been the Way Humans have Reproduced by Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth ever since.

Our Natural Born Human Ancestors of these Natural Born Human Children, recorded these Supernatural Events as as Supernatural Gods, Goddesses and Angels.

Human Generations of Misbred Body Birth Children, have Mistranslated High Tech as Supernatural up to and including our High Tech Science Knowledge Society today.

Now we need a High Tech Science Translation of Religious and Myth Writings.

Genesis 1:1. KJV. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

This was Humans setting up the Atmosphere, and land area of Earth with a sea, not Creating the Universe.

No Human can Create the Universe of Elements, that we are made from. I call this Entity, GOD. Not a Human in our Image.

Genesis 1:26. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let then have dominion over... (fish, fowl, cattle. the earth).

This God is our High Tech Human Ancestors from Space.

Continue.

[Dolores Lear]

Continued.

In the 1960s, scientists considered Colonizing Venus. They would send in algae to break down the water atmosphere, to set up an atmosphere like Earth.

Genesis 1:2b. "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Genesis 1:6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

The atmosphere divided the waters, half going above the atmosphere, and half going to the land to make the sea.

Genesis 2:21,22. "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

So what is so Supernatural about this today? We put people in a deep sleep to do operations also. We made Nuclear Bombs instead of Reproducing Humans by High Tech Science. We do Clone animals, and maybe some Humans were Cloned, unlawfully.

But Genesis gives us the proper Way to Clone Male and Female Equal Clones, by Reproducing the Female from the Male Rib stem cells. At least it is worth a try.

Why has the High Tech Human Species Misused their High Tech for Polluting our Planet with Toxic Atomic Waste, and Pollution of all Kinds?

When will we have the Rude Awakening that Unequal Misbred High Tech Humans today, are the Killer Satan Species of Planet Earth, instead of the High Tech Caretakers like our High Tech Ancestors, in our Human Image?

So for Me, I accept that Earth was Colonized 'in the beginning'. Life did not Evolve on Earth, but since Humans have Evolution in their Genetic Memory also, I accept it happened on another Planet, where our High Tech Ancestors came from.

Dan and Red Biddie, hope this explains the High Tech in the Bible and Myth, that I post about.

If not you Know I will keep trying as long as Bill allows it.

[Dolores Lear]

It seems Humans cannot make sense of Holocaust Deniers about Germany, in the 1920-40s.

How can these Human Deniers, and Humans that accept the German Holocaust, make sense of all the Holocaust Pollution and Nuclear Waste, High Tech Humans are doing to our Home Planet Earth today?

Making Nuclear Waste for Bombs, and Nuclear Waste for Electricity, is not the High Tech Science God/Us Way, for Eternal Physical Life After Birth. It is Satan's Way of Planetary Death.

Why do Humans use their High Tech for Evil? How do Humans follow on Earth, God/Us or Satan?

What are Humans going to do, when the Planet starts Burning with the Pollution and Nuclear Waste, that will cause the Planetary Judgment Day Fire?

Call upon the Name of the Peace Lord, who talked and walked with Humans, and 'said Thou Shalt Not Kill?

Who Knows the Name of the Peace Lord God/Us, Creator of Life on Earth in Genesis? Humans that Pollute and Kill do not serve this God/Us.

So do Humans keep Blindly Polluting the Earth with Trash, and Reproducing Nuclear Bombs and Lasers, for Satan, and keep praying to God/Us for help?

Or, Will Humans Wake up and smell the Roses, before they cannot grow in our polluted ground?

It is up to Humans, not God/Us, if we survive on Planet Earth. God/Us gave Humans the Free Will to be Caretakers or Killers.

What is the Verdict for Planet Earth? Life or Death?

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Denying the Holocaust is like denying reality. How long can this crap go on? Believing in make believe is like this. Some like comparing atheists with all sorts of badness. That is because all they have is faith, no proof of an imaginary guy. Iggy is right. It depends where you are born. If you was born in another culture you probably will believe in another kind of belief.

I also believe it is how you are hardwired. Some are able to escape these thoughts of outside control.

I get blamed for what others say on this blog, or what others have done in the world. Well, coming from people who are still being blamed for adam and eve’s sins I can understand your lame reasoning. It’s about time to frow up, don’t you think?

All this bickering with Xs is because they have nothing to base their belief on. So they attack atheist as evil ( the devil ) people who only want bad science. These Xs are wrestling with their own demons. They twist everything we say because they have no other way. Meaningless gossip without facts.

They are so delusional they think Iggy and I are one in the same.

Jdmahurin, never received an email from you.

Adam you said I probably wouldn’t email you. I did and I didn’t hear back from you.

This was all BS from you both so I will only post what I feel like saying for awhile. Have fun with this.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

What is probable in life? I’ll probably wake tomorrow. I’m 56 and the average life in my family is 70-80 yrs. So, I will probably wake tomorrow.

Is it probable we will be writing on this blog within the next two weeks? Probably.

Tomorrow, do you think a miracle will happen? Water to wine? One fish feed multitudes? Probably not..

Do you think Jesus will show up in your lifetime? If Jesus was/is a real person/god – I don’t believe this – if jesus is all this, then why didn’t he write something and pass it on?

Surely he can/could write unlike most people during that time of zero – 0. Why didn’t he (god) broadcast this to the four corners of the world? The earth was flat then so there was corners guys. Now with more probabilities the edges have smoothed out. Damn, now we know the world is not flat.

Surely there should be a book of Jesus. “I can see it now” - THE BOOK OF JESUS – ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL OF AND BY THE APOSTLE JESUS - BY JESUS. P.S I, GOD, REALLY WROTE THIS. “ I would like to see this on a corner street neon sign”.

Paul, Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John have books. Why doesn’t Jesus?

Without the Jesus book I don’t see him as god. Without something from this wonderful teacher Jesus not writing something it is not probable he was real. It is more probable he was and is a myth just like all the other gods who did not write anything or have somebody who lived in his time, write of his life.

The Bible has been added to and taken from for 1600 years. And now we have 33,000 sects of Christianity who believe we should go to hell for different reasons…or not.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Goldstein Squad Member]

Cole Morgan demonstrates that he uses the same methods as the Holocaust Deniers.

Thanks for the demonstration.

You say Jesus didn't write anything that we know of?

Well, show me written proof that Hitler ordered the Holocaust, or even a speech where he said he was going to gas and burn the Jews.

As far a probabilities, refer me to ONE EXAMPLE in nature of life arising from nonlife.

Thanks in advance, denier!

[Goldstein Squad Member]

In furtherance of his DENIAL that the JEW Jesus even existed, he offers nothing.

Perhaps he should consult his existence, and I am not including atheist fringe web sites as scholarship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[Dan Beyer]

Kc freethinker, explain to all of us again how fully functioning 4o encyclopedias worth of instruction and information "poofs" into existence? How does DNA that has to be completely functioning from the get go to actually work correctly spontaneously generates?

[Goldstein Squad Member]

By the way Cole, your descriptions of the formation of the Bible is totally bogus.

As is your description of Christian sects...sure, people have differences but the common denominator is belief in Christ...you know this, so your description of "33.000" sects amounts to WILLFUL distortion.

Just as the common denominator between you and Iggy is hating religion and spewing insults and lies.

If your postion is so superior, why do you have to rely on insult and lies.

You keep talking about reality, but your knowledge of cosmology, abiogeneis, the formation of intelligence, and history and philosphy is obviously barely high school level.

And that explains why you and Iggy rely on the same tactics, and why you can spew hate and sign off "peace and goodness".

[Susan]

Bill, that was an insightful article by Mark Oppenheimer. It's always rather scary to me when I hear of intelligent people, who seem greatly motivated by a love for exploring diverse ideas, who end up adopting attitudes that are harmful to, and dismissive of, an entire group of people. Hitler also strikes me as one such person.

I think Oppenheimer is right: the error of these Holocaust deniers (and I would add the error of Hitler) was in lack of compassion. Love really does keep us from a multitude of sins. We must be vigilant not to let our love wax cold.

Red Biddy, I'm sorry you didn't think I was adequately-defending Bill the other day. I guess my defense was more in the spirit of, "WHAT are you saying about Bill?" The guy's rudeness was so shocking to me.

jdmahurin, your theological views seem similar to mine. I'm glad you are posting here, and I'm eager to hear more about your beliefs.

[Dolores Lear]

Cole:
"Iggy is right. It depends where you are born. If you was born in another culture you probably will believe in another kind of belief."

Me:
Beliefs do depend on Who your Parents are, and Where on Earth you are born. Train up a Child, and when they are old they will not depart from it.

We see many posts by Adults who hold these Religious views. And the Results have been been, Inequality, Killing, Wars and Rumors of Wars.

How can Humans on Earth with High Tech Science, still accept this Body Birth Divided Lifestyle, when we have High Tech www. communications, travel, and the High Tech Nuclear Bombs on land and sea?

Change their majority Lifestyle from Religious as their parents die, to Atheists as more and more Humans are leaving Religion today?

Ever since Equal Male and Female Clones did Fornication, and Reproduced Human Children by Body Birth, Unequal Killing instead of Peace and Equality, has been the Human Game of Life on Earth.

There is a Peace Human Society in our Solar System at least and probably in the Universe.

Our High Tech Male and Female Clone Society, the God/Us in Genesis, do Colonize Planets with Male and Female Clones with Free Will, to be the Caretakers of the Planet.

When these Equal Caretakers begin Heterosexual Body Birth, they lose their High Tech, their Eternal Physical Life on Planets and Spaceships, and become Earthbound.

The Noah/Atlantis Society return to Unbalanced High Tech like Humans today have.

They caused the Religious Planetary Flood with their Unbalanced Elements.

High Tech Space Travel and Reproduction are not Supernatural today.

We are setting up the Breaking of our Ozone Canopy, and the End Times 'Arm'ageddon War and the Planetary Judgement Day Fire from our Toxic Pollution and Nuclear Bomb Waste, and Earth's Death is in our Near Future.

[Goldstein Squad Member]

I thought you all might enjoy the Wikipedia entry on WILL GRAHAM!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Graham

[Red Biddy]

WG's request for proof that Hitler ordered the Holocaust is about as silly as asking for proof that Pontius Pilate personally ordered the execution of Jesus.

Can WG produce Pontius Pilate's signature on a death warrant for Jesus ? Also a photograph of Jesus's resurrection would be nice.

I loved Oppenheimer's comment that Holocaust denial is not about Jews per se but gives deranged intellectuals... "something to do with their minds." i.e they haven't anything better to do ! This view could happily apply to many bloggers couldn't it ? I include myself in that comment of course !

There is more to the present spate of holocaust denial of course than just "something to do". I think with the problems of Israel and the Palestinians the "deniers" are trying to take away the most important reason for Israel's very existence. It won't work of course for as Benjamin Netanyahu says "We are never going to be victims again" and he wasn't just referring to the Holocaust !

[Red Biddy]

Dolores,
I think you might be confusing the scientific theory of Evolution with theories into the Origin of life. They are not the same. Evolution explains the Origins of Species, not the Origin of Life.

You say you do "accept" evolution on ANOTHER planet - why not on this one ? Isn't this somewhat of a cop out because you can't explain how life got started so pass it off to some other planet to figure out ?

What's so wrong with our Planet Earth, which is all we've got to study, after all, and so GOOD about some other planet which you can't even prove exists ?

Yes, Bill is good to let you rant on, every day about Body Birth (is there any other?) etc...but you might consider, every time you sink your teeth into a tasty succulent (hybrid) corn cob that it is a product of an evolutionary process learned on this earth and not from some fictitious planet "out there." !

[Chuck Lunney]

Will wrote: "For example, prove to me that Hitler ordered the Holocaust, by producing, or at least directing me to, an original document in which HITLER HIMSELF gave the orders to set up gas chamebers and burn the bodies."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/statements.htm
http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/ww2timeline/Final_Solution.html
http://www.shoaheducation.com/endlosung.html
http://tinyurl.com/mvhu3q

Sure looks like a clear trail of documented support for the claim that Hitler knew, approved of and ordered the "Final Solution". Of course, this doesn't include an actual "order", but you can't find the actual written order from Truman ordering the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, either (although there are diary entries, speeches and reports that document it).

Hmmph. That took me all of 5 minutes to find (and I wasn't hurrying).

Maybe you should get your accusations straight, Will. It's not the evoutionists who are deniers of evidence, it's the creationists.

[Dolores Lear]

Red Biddy.
What is wrong with accepting Evolution on Earth, is that all the Supernatural writings of Gods in our Human Image, Created Life on Earth.

All the rest of the Supernatural Gods, Goddesses and Angels, can be explained with High Tech Colonization, and Reproduction of the Female from the Male Rib.

Today it is possible, to Reproduce Humans in a High Tech Womb, even if we make Nuclear bombs instead of the Womb.

Using High Tech Knowledge for Good Purebred Humans on the Tree of Life, is necessary, with High Tech for Human Life to Take Care of Planet Earth.

Instead High Tech Misbred Body Birth Humans today, reproduce Evil Humans on the Tree of Life, for Death to Each Other and their Home Planet.

Why would Humans pass down this Supernatural/High Tech Science Knowledge for their 6000 year Lifetime, of Birth, Death, and Rebirth, if Life Evolved on Earth for millions of years?

Instead of Keeping High Tech Regeneration, and Eternal Physical Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships, like the God/Us in Genesis.

God/Us writings, Prove the High Tech Human Species did make it to Earth, Colonize it, and Reproduce Purebred Male and Female Clone Humans.

When the Purebred Humans began Body Birth Children, then Inequality, Inhumanity, Killing and Death, and all the Evil Fruits on the Tree of Life began and continue to today.

A High Tech Translation of these writings, and Myth of High Tech Atlantis, has convinced me, Earth was Colonized by High Tech.

Religious Supernatural Creation, and Intelligent Design, also is High Tech Colonization, so no problem.

I try to Prove our High Tech Ancestors, are the Supernatural Gods of Religion and Myth.

It seems weird to me since we have High Tech Science, that Humans do not accept Human Life in Space, but only on Planet Earth.

As long as Bill will let me, I will keep trying to Prove High Tech was on Earth two times before today.

[The Secular Parent]

I have not seen the series that you posted Bill, so my comments will be confined to my general opinion of the subject matter.

It makes absolutely no sense to deny the historicity of the Holocaust. The reality that people actually do saddens me for two reasons.

First, my concern is for the children who are being taught these falsehoods. We should do all that we can to ensure that history is not "revised" to exclude such a tragic and heartless event. We have to make sure that future generations understand the impact it had on Jewish people, and on the world.

Next, I worry that Holocaust Deniers should not be given a passive flock for their sermons. We need to make sure that people are out, in full force, supporting truth.

As a side note, I cannot help but make a comparison to those fanatics who would deny the merits of evolutionary principal. Individuals who aggressively target young people with their blatant lies and their overt stretching of the truth. We have allowed our country to be usurped by people who's goal may be pure (to bring all people to God), but whose outcome has been to retard the science education of a generation of young people, with the potential to carry it further.

We must work against those who deny truth, of any kind. Truth is truth...the Holocaust was a real, decimating, and history-altering occurrence. That is true.

Evolution, while not having the fossil of every last species on the planet, accounts for the complexity and the diversity of life that we see today. That is true.

www.secularparenting.wordpress.com

[Red Biddy]

NEWS FLASH
World's oldest Bible now online.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5749555/Worlds-oldest-Bible-published-in-full-online.html

This is not the Old Testament, just some books from the New. What is interesting though is that the last verses of St Mark's Gospel (the oldest book) verses 9 - 20 (concerning the resurrection of Jesus) are not included !

I checked my grandfather's notes beside these verses in his old Bible and he wrote: "The scribe who copied for the Vatican left a space for it - knowing of its existence but not sure whether to put it in or not."

Seems to have still been some doubt as to Jesus rising from the dead even 400 years after his death.