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March 21, 2009

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Just Thinking

We've seen many people over the years take perfectly reasonable teaching and distort it into something ugly. Hitler did it. Falwell did it. Hagee does it. Is it the teaching that is at fault. No. Jesus said, "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart." The motive, will and intent of the person being taught affects teaching. Teaching is affected by the ground upon which it falls.

Someone who enjoys hating can always find a reason to hate someone. They can find a reason in just about anything, whether it is hating for sport, or suddenly turning and hating their fellow haters! Hitler found all kinds of 'reasons' to exterminate Jews. Some find reasons within themselves to despise Christians, or 'fundamentalist.' Justification for hatred is not hard. It's a simple formula. Pick any group. Give it a name. Look at each person and find a trait you don't like. Attribute every possible bad trait of everyone in the group to each and every person in the group. Now you have an enemy worthy of hatred and extermination. But there is no justification. It's just a sick mind game used by sick people to justify their sick hatred. It's easy to villify anyone whom you can put in some arbitrary group and then attribute all bad traits of all people in the group to each and every person in the group.

Each person should be treated as an individual. Dehumanizing and marginalizing someone by dismissing them as part of group is the first step toward justifying hatred. History has taught us that marginalizing individuals through group attribution is key to allowing cold-blooded extermination. Hitler vilified *all* Jews.

Dolores Lear

Faith Based Ministries Abound, in K.C. MO, and all over the Planet. Why?

Why not use our Human Energy to Share Equally, with All Life on Earth, instead of Praying and Killing? Is that Impossible?

Because of Who We Are, Where We Are Born, and Who our Parents Are?

Why are there are so many levels to Human Life, to be Born Into, with Government, Race, Creed, Have and Havenots?

Humans Judge Humans, as to Who They Are, Where They Were Born, and How Much Money They Have, and Which Religion They Belong to?

Does a Belief in God, make a difference, as to How Humans Live on their Home Planet?

Does a Belief in God, make Humans Share the Earth's Resources Equally, or is Greed, Inequality, Inhumanity, Killing and War, the Human Lifestyle of God's Children? Why?

How many more Faith Based Ministries will it Take, to make Humans Live Equally, like the Ministries teach?

Do as I Say, not as I Do, does not make Peace on Earth, Good Will to All.

Train up a Child as to the Way they will Live, and when they are Old they will not Depart from it.

What is the Living Style on Earth of Humans? Peace and Good Will to All Brothers/Sisters of Life, and Peace on Earth?

Where are the Caretakers of our Home Planet, and All the Life on it God started?

Who did God put in Charge? Humans? Or did Humans Evolve from Animals and Killing?

Are All Humans waiting for Peace After They Die, or waiting for God to come back to Earth and Change Humans from Killers to Caretakers? Why?

Who Brainwashed Humans to Kill Each Other, and their Home Planet? God? Satan? Or, Human Flesh Lust, that Overpopulated our Spaceship Earth?

adam harrison

Cole Morgan, I wanted to follow up your remarks yesterday regarding lying. I certainly agree that lying is a bad thing. Thats why when Kansas City Freethought posts at the site of the same name and smears the wife, sister, and parents of someone neither of you like...and even admitting in the process that those people don't post on this blog OR that one...and you say you know nothing about it that makes yOU a liar.

In fact, the only atheist I know who has called him on it is Chuck, certainly you haven't, have you?

Why do you all do it? Why do you continue to smear him, and beleivers generally, and call them delusional and worse? Does it make you feel better? Does it make you feel better? Are you insecure, it that it?

Why don't you own up to it and give a rational, logical response?

Iggy - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Posted by: adamh | March 20, 2009 at 06:22 PM >>>>And Lynne did give identifying information...we all know who Lynne is, and she has named her neighbor, the Consevative Christian, and her kids. Thats pretty pathetic.

Christian Looney Alert for Adamh!

The neigbhor of Lynne's can be identified? Wow! How?

Where does Lynne live? MO or KS side of Kansas City? What town? In a house? Condomimium? Apartments? Is the neighbor to her left, right separated by a wall, in front or behind? Or is the neibor living upstairs downstairs?

Christian Looney Alert for Adamh!

adam harrison

Dolores, your comparison of Officially Atheistic Governments with the "No State Religion" position of the USA and claiming that they are therefore BOTH Godless is mistaken.

Atheistic does not equal Secular; as shown by this article from an atheistic website:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/lowder2.html

adam harrison

AS a further follow up to those comments, the article also makes clear that SCIENCE is NOT atheistic.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/lowder2.html

Will Graham

Just Thinking, that was an interesting posts. Perhaps you should read it again.

In the post you made yesterday you seemed to make it pretty clear you despise the Catholic Church and Priests; almost as much as Susan despises fundamentalists.

And a note to IGGY: I thought you were ignoring Adam? LOL! You aren't doing too good a job of that, little buddy!

Dolores Lear

adamh.

Who is the Official Entity, that says whether a Government is an Atheistic Godless Society? The USA? The Christian Religion?

I posted a list of Governments that have No State Religion. Many countries in the past have had a State Religion, Including Russia and China, etc. But not anymore today. Why?

The USA never did have an Official State Religion, as they left Europe because of State Governments.

Christians took over the USA, with their Rites, Icons, Holidays, Prayers, in Government and Schools, etc., and made all Citizens observe these, Jews, Muslims, etc., until recently?

Does God really approve the USA as a Christian Country, having the most Nuclear Bombs and Nuclear Waste, on land and sea? For awhile we were even importing nuclear waste from Europe. Why?

We even buried it in the Pacific Ocean. Now it is stacked all over the USA, with a big pile in Utah. Why?

Is this how God told 'His' Children to Live on the Planet 'He' turned over the the Human Species 'in the beginning'? Why did God 'say' Thou Shalt Not Kill?

What is a Godless Country definition? A War Superpower, with Military Bases in many Countries, and involved in two wars today.

Did Life Evolve on Earth, with this Human Killer Species Planetwide? And, so Far, No Peace God has appeared, to Save Earth from Death?

For me, Godless is how the Human Race Lives on our Earth Home. Many use their mouths to Pray, to a God Somewhere, Out There, and use their Hands to Kill, Each Other, their Ozone Canopy, and their Eco System.

The Proof is in the Pudding.

Will Graham

Dolores, if you would read the link Adam gave, you would see that a Secular State, with no official religion, is not the same as an officially atheistic state, which IS Godless.

You are confusing the two. They are not the same thing.

Dolores Lear

Will:
"Dolores, if you would read the link Adam gave, you would see that a Secular State, with no official religion, is not the same as an officially atheistic state, which IS Godless."

Me:
Who makes up these explanations on what words mean?
What is God, what is Satan? We use these terms to mean many things. Black and White and all Shades in between.

I accept the Whole Planet is Godless.

I accept the Lord God, in Genesis, is Equal High Tech Humans, Sharing the Earth's Resources and Work Equally. And No Competition Against Each Other, for more than their Fair Share.

Otherwise they could not have reached Earth from their Home Planet, to set up another Base here.

When did God's Free Will, get a price tag put on it? Or, When Human Life Evolved from Animal Life?

There is More Than Plenty, on a Planet to go around, with Controlled High Tech Human Reproduction.

When did Humans Claim ownership of Gods Planet, instead of Caretakers? If Christians accept the Lord God of Genesis, not a Spirit, but Humans, and Jesus a Human, were against Greed, Competition, and Killing, why do Earth's Humans do it?

Is you can convince me there is a God Country on Planet Earth, I will be glad to acknowledge it. But any Country with Greed, Competition and Killing is not Living God's Way.

Humans should Live that Way Now on Earth After Birth, not After Death in Heaven. What is That? What effect does that have with Living on a Planet? None that I can see.

Eternal Physical Life is for Living Humans After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Susan

First off, if anyone hasn't been back to yesterday's comments to see Iggy's "Redneck Lent" entry, you really need to; it's hilarious.

Just Thinking made a really great point about how important it is to relate to others as invividuals, and not just assume that everyone in, say, a certain group or category, has all of the faults, combined, of everyone in that group.

I will take more care, when discussing all I'm learning about the effects of fundamentalist Christianity on people, not to act like all fundamentalists are "the same."

As I've already said, many fundamentalists are very kind and caring people (as I believe I was most of the time when I was fundamentalist) -- it's the belief-system itself, and not the people, that I see as wrong and evil, because of the limiting effect it has on emotional, intellectual, and spiritual growth.

That other article made some really good points, though I'm still not sure about a blanket-ban on condoms. I agree that it can be harmful if a condom makes an HIV+ person feel okay about sleeping around, especially if it makes that person feel that s/he doesn't even need to inform partners about the infection (or doesn't even know him/herself because of not getting tested).

But it still seems like condom-use would be a good idea, for HIV+ people in monogomous relationships, where the other partner KNOWS about the infection but still chooses to be sexually-intimate.

Also, even when both partners are HIV+, condoms are still a good idea, because the virus keeps mutating in each individual, so if they keep reinfecting one another with the mutated strains, they will end up getting a lot sicker a lot faster than if they exercise caution. (Continued)

Susan

(Continued) On the one hand, I no longer believe that one person or group should impose their sexual standards on others. At the same time, as I've already shared, most of the women I know who've had multiple sex partners, and/or started having sex at early ages, don't feel good about it as mature women. They wish they had waited.

Their prior experience seems to affect their current self-image, as well as their ability to enjoy sex as adults. I'm not sure if this is related to the messages most of us hear growing up about "nice girls" -- or to the fact that heterosexual intercourse occurs inside the woman, such that each encounter becomes more a part of her (maybe it's both).

This gives me lots of food-for-thought as I'm raising my two girls.

I am now less-concerned about pushing some standard of bridal virginity, and more concerned that they feel good about their sexuality, and don't feel that anything was taken from them or introduced to them before they were ready.

About male circumcision in Africa -- I don't belive in genital mutilation of children/babies. I don't think anyone should be circumcised without being at an age where they can give their informed consent. But I guess if circumcision were offered as an option for HIV+ MEN, and not forced or pushed on anyone, it could be helpful, if it really has been proven to reduce the spread of AIDS.

Dolores Lear

About Jews and Gentiles.
Romans 3:10-18. KJV. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchur; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Me:
Not just between Gentiles and Jews today.

No one Knows the Way to Peace, is through Equal Sharing of the Earth's Resources, and the Control of Human Reproduction.

Would it be possible today, to Start Sharing the Earth's Resources with 7 Billion Humans Equally? Without a Price Tag?

How many more Humans will there be in another 10 years, let alone only 1 Billion 100 years ago.

Now that we have Spaceship Knowledge of Astronaut Equality Onboard, and no room for more Humans by Reproduction, it should be an eyeopener, to Understand and Accept that our Planet Earth Home is also a Spaceship.

How many more Astronauts can Earth Support? Who Cares? Humans are too busy Hating and Killing all the Others Aboard.

What are we going to do to get rid of Evil Nuclear Bombs? Kill the Planet along with All Life Species?

Eternal Physical Life is for Living Humans After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships, not for Dead Humans.

adam harrison

Dolores, who makes up YOUR explanations of what words mean?

What is God? What is Satan? How do you know the whole planet is Godless? After all, your science hasn't mangaged to destroy it...yet.

And Susan remarks about circumcision are ironic. Having a circumcison at an age when you are capable of givng informed consent is going to be a lot more traumatic than when you were a little baby? After all, its a lot smaller then! LOL!

Red Biddy

So it's John Calvin's 500th birthday.
I hope he's been burning in Hell for the past 500 years. He deserves it for allowing the burning of poor Michael Servetus at the stake, over a silly disagreement over the Trinity and infant baptism.
Sorry Bill - he might have had a "marvellous mind" but he was a religious tyrant and very cruel man.

Dolores Lear

adamh.

'My' God High Tech Science Knowledge Humans, for Peace on Planets and in Spaceships, and Eternal Physical Life After Birth, is not today's Satan's Science for Evil Pollution and Bombs.

'My' God science does not Kill, and is used for Good for Reproducing Equal Male and Female Human Clones, and in Colonizing Planets, and Travel in Spaceships.

'My' God Science makes Purebred Human Caretaker Humans. Our Evil Satan Science does make a fetus in the Lab, but they are not Purebred, and still go through the Female birth channel.

Satan's Evil Heterosexual Body Birth, makes Genetic and Physical Defective Misbred Killer Humans.

I do not Know why the Perfect Adam and Eve Colony began Reproducing by Heterosexual Body Birth.

I am convinced they had Perfect Genetic and Physical Bodies, without Flesh Lust Genetic Defects.

My God and Satan descriptions are from my Christian Religion. God is Good Humans that do not Kill, and Have Peace on their Home Planet.

Satan is Evil Humans that do Kill. Peace is not possible, and they kill their Home Planet. Satan Humans are Alive and Well on Planet Earth.

Love of Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships, should stop Humans, from Falling to Body Birth, but something did make the Adam and Eve Colony start Body Birth.

When God our Ancestors returned, either from Space or another part of the Planet, Original Sin/Body Birth was already done.

Then the Human Life on Earth lost their Free Will to Eternal Physical Life After Birth, and we are in the Last Days of the Cycles of Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth.

Most of the High Tech today is used more for Evil than Good, and our Home Planet is Dying.

Eternal Physical Life is for Living Humans, not the Dead.

Red Biddy

Another reason John Calvin should be burning in Hell - his "prosperity gospel provided sacred sanction for personal greed, obsessive materialism and unchecked narcissism which is contrary to Biblical teachings." www.publicopiniononline.com/opinion/ci

It's no coincidence that the richest and most prosperous country in Europe is Switzerland where John Calvin founded his version of Protestanism. His prosperity gospel spread throughout the world but found particular rich soil to grow in here in the New World.

It was Max Weber (The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism) who first connected Protestanism to Capitalism.

We (USA) succeed in mixing the three P's, Protestanism, Patriotism and Prosperity into a powerful force - under God of course. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. While for 3 centuries Americans have been taught to admire material success (God's blessing on all of us) I don't think the intent was for those who became rich to have done so at the expense of the rest of us!

Susan

Adamh, the purpose of waiting to do genital mutilations on someone, until that person is old enough to give informed consent, is that SOME individuals will decide they have no desire to be mutilated.

I, for instance, have no desire to have my clitoris removed. So, it's irrelevant to me that it might have been easier when I was a baby or small child, because it was smaller then. I have no wish that it was "got out of the way" back then, just as I have no wish for it to be taken out now.

(It's kind of like saying that it's easier to accept fundamentalist teachings about hell, if you start hearing about it when your brain is smaller and less-developed -- maybe you'd rather not accept it at all, anyway. :))

For adult males who decide to undergo circumcision, because they are HIV+ and want to reduce the risk of transmission -- well, it's kind of like any other surgical procedure: there is anesthetic available during, and pain medications for afterwards.

I don't think there IS a safe level of anesthetic for a baby -- I think baby boys are usually circumcised without anything to dull the pain. There's some weird teaching out there that infants can't feel pain, so parents are reassured that the screams they hear are just related to the coldness of the instrument.

Why assume that every male African baby is going to be HIV+? Even the babies born to infected mothers, don't necessarily become infected themselves. I think they will test positive until about 6 months postpartum, when the maternal antibodies wear off (unless the mother is breastfeeding, which may actually be more beneficial than risky, but that's a whole different subject).

For HIV+ male children, I still think circumcision should be postponed until the child can understand and decide whether he wants to go through with it. This is certainly an option that should be discussed, if the the young man grows to sexual maturity.

Susan

I've been thinking more about Just Thinking's comments about teachings getting distorted. He seems to be saying that fundamentalist Christian teachings are good, but that when they fall on the wrong ground, they can get distorted and turn ugly. But I see some fundamentalist teachings, themselves, as distorted and ugly.

For example: the fundamentalist teaching that non-believers will be sent to eternal punishment (or, at the very least, the non-believers who had an opportunity to accept Christ) -- I now see this teaching as a manmade distortion, and a total lie about the character of God.

Just Thinking, I'm still not clear what YOU mean by "right" fundamentalist teaching -- or how you divide the "right" teaching from man's distortions of it. The other day, you asked me how I could ever have believed that God would eternally punish those who died without an opportunity to hear the gospel.

And I'm not sure that I ever actually believed THAT. As I told you, though, I DID swallow the line about eternal punishment for those who HAD OPPORTUNITY but didn't believe.

You never said anything in response to that ... but, unlike some here, I'm not going to assume you were "running away" :) -- I think it's highly possible that you've been busy (as we all are), and either didn't see that comment, or just didn't see any reason to comment on it.

So, I'm just bringing it up again, and this time I'll ask a direct question: Do YOU see the fundamentalist teaching about eternal punishment for those who HAD OPPORTUNITY to receive the gospel, but nevertheless died in their unbelief -- do you see this teaching as "right teaching?"

Red Biddy

Yes, Susan indeed.
It never seemed fair to me that those who died in unbelief (either having had or not the chance to receive the gospel should still receive eternal punishment.
Even worse was the belief in predestination as preached by Presbyterians, Jehovah's witnesses and many other Protestant religions.
Predestination = God has (apparently) already made his mind up who was going to go to hell or heaven. Humanity both born and unborn is already doomed to eternity and God's Judgement which has already been made.
It's all rubbish Susan. Live your life here and now. It's all there is.

adam harrison

Susan, your comparison of circumcision to clitoral removal is ludicrous, and misinformed. In fact, I think you know that. But, whatever, I guess its another one of those things THE JEWS started, right?

Seriously, though, you seem to know a lot about what God will and will not do.

Where did you get this information?

Just Thinking

Susan, I don't always have time to answer carefully.

I believe that those who do not want to follow God will have no place with God. By their own choosing. Some people want evil and choose evil. By choice they are evil. God is not going to force them to choose otherwise; but there will be no place for such a person in a Kingdom where evil no longer exists. When God finally withdraws from such a person, there will be nothing left to sustain their life. They will be utterly destroyed. Those who want to follow God may live with God through grace and forgiveness. But those who have no intention of turning from evil will not be sustained in Christ.

Christianity isn't contained in checklists of facts; Christianity is not a game of incantations or recitations. Christianity addresses the core of a person--God looks at the core being, at motives, at intent, at will, and at actions. God tells us that He looks for these things:
** Do we admit and confess that we've done wrong in our life?
** Are we sorry for wrong, and have a determined desire to do right (i.e., repent)?
** Do we believe that we can be forgiven by grace?
** Will we take action in response to grace?
These are deep FUNDAMENTALS that only you and God know. God tells us:
** If we cannot admit wrongdoing, then we are lost;
** If we are not sorry or refuse to turn from wrong, then we are lost;
** If we do not believe that we can be forgiven, then we will die in our sin.
Salvation is about who we are, and because of who God is.

Who do you say that Christ is? Christ is not a man.

Michael

Susan , you wrote:

"…the fundamentalist teaching that non-believers will be sent to eternal punishment…"

Last check…
Catholics believe this
Orthodox believe this
Anglicans believe this
Lutherans believe this
Presbyterians believe this
Methodists believe this

....actually, Christianity has always held this "fundamental," yes even the non-fundamentalist bodies listed above.

I will grant you there are self-professed Christians that run around today believing that "everyone goes to heaven" or "there is no hell." Just like I could be a self-professed Christian and believe my toaster is the fourth part of the Godhead. Nevertheless, the church bodies listed above (which are NOT fundamentalist in nature and account for about 75% of the world's Christianity) officially do not teach "everyone goes to heaven" and/or "there is no hell." Then when you add the rest of the Christian bodies together - probably 98% and up hold to the principle you attribute only to fundamentalism.

Michael

Red Biddy, you wrote:

"Predestination = God has (apparently) already made his mind up who was going to go to hell or heaven. Humanity both born and unborn is already doomed to eternity and God's Judgement [sic] which has already been made."

Yeah, who is God to make a choice? Who gave God any say so? That is what the individual American religious consumer is for!

Dolores Lear

Circumcision was not practiced by Protestants when I was a Child. My husband born in 1921, and brother, 1924, were not circumcised.

By 1954, when my son was born, he was circumcised. I do not remember why Protestants started doing this.

Probably something to do with health issues. But I think for a long time, Protestants did not do this, as a protest against the Jewish religion.

Circumcision was a practice in ancient times, and in Egypt, and started again with Abraham and his religion. Maybe Abram started it after he was in Egypt.

Later Abram/Abraham's descendants became Israelites and Judaism. Ishmael, Abraham's first son, and Esau his grandson, and Abrahan's five sons he had with wife Keturah, after Sarah died, all settled in the Mid-East.

I accept this is where the Muslim religion came from. Abraham's descendants did populate much of the Mid East.

I never Knew about female circumcision until at least 1980.

Adam and Eve covered themselves with fig leaf aprons. Why do Humans mutilate their sex organs?

Because of the Original Sin of Body Birth by Adam and Eve?

Google: UNICEF today applauded the women and men who are working together to end the practice of female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C).

Fallen Humans mutilate their sex organs, and Eunuchs, do Prove Adam and Eve were not made by Body Birth, but All Humans since they Reproduced Sons by Body Birth, are reproduced by their Original Sin.

High Tech Science, Religious Scriptures, and Myth can Prove Earth was Colonized by High Tech Purebred Humans, that Reproduced Humans by High Tech, in their Human Image.

These Human Male and Female Clones, started reproducing by Heterosexual Body Birth, that caused Death and Destruction, to All that our High Tech Ancestors Created/Colonized on our Home Planet Earth.

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