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March 28, 2009

Comments

Will Graham

Susan, a brief follow up from your last couple of posts yerterday. Seriously, your slurs against fundamentalists are getting more and more irresponsible. You say you don't think the "majority" of fundamentalist fathers "rape and abuse their children", as if the minority might.
This is the purest slander, and pretends that such abuse must come from believers; you keep spitting out this term "fundamentalist" in connection with worse and worse things as you go along.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that non believers never are involved in any of this? You speak of "freethinkers" as if they are the personifications of good; it is obvious where you are going to end up with this "gospel of freethought".

And your definition of abuse seems rather limited; I would include killing the child before it can even be born as the most extreme abuse; it fact, it is indisputable that abuse has increased drastically since the legalization of this monstrosity. The message being sent to the massses is, if your kid is in the way, eliminate it.

The Pope, who is despised almost as much as fundamentalists around here, correctly diagnosed this as the "culture of death".

Look, we get it...you depise fundamentalists; they are "the root of all evil". O.K. Now, since we are all going to be saved in the end, calm down.

Just Thinking

Great reading list, Bill.

This wins the award for uneducated remarks:
"I don't believe children need anyone to "start their learning processes." People are born learners, and born questers. As children pursue their own inquiries and interests, they can certainly benefit from responsive parents being available to help them go further in their explorations, provided their parents don't take over the process."

Teaching children the alphabet, phoenics, numbers, etc. is necessary. Children aren't just "born learners" for these things. We tried experiments decades ago where we tried to lead children into discovering things for themsleves without the discipline of structured teaching. It failed miserably, and we have a whole generation of people who suffered because they were not properly trained in fundamentals. They have the highest self-esteem, and the lowest level of achievement among children of industrialized nations.

People don't learn better when you arrange for them to self discover. Nope. They learn better when you teach, have them perform, review, and regularly test. That's part of discipline, which is critical to anything worthwhile. It takes hard work to become good at something, not touchy-feely, uneducated ideas about learning.

Nobody is going to rediscover any significant field of study for themselves. This is why people study under accomplished advisors, and they study the works of masters.

Sure, you could let someone fumble, stumble and try to rediscover the fundamentals for themselves. But why would you want to handicap them by not teaching the a-b-c's and 1-2-3's to children? That's part of the job of previous generations.

Matthew 28:18-20 - discipline and disciples
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Although abuse can happen in a home of any religious background or none, it is the fundamentalist authors who advocate child abuse in their books and say you have to do it to be a good Christian. You don't see books by atheists or liberal Christians saying hitting your kid is a good idea. See books by the Pearls for example. Obviously this view doesn't represent all fundamentalists but think of a relatively new fundamentalist, perhaps a naive, first-time parent trying to find what it means to be a good Christian parent and then reading these books. The Pearls are not just abusing their kids, they are convincing other parents to abuse their kids in the name of God, parents who might not otherwise abuse their kids. No, Will, it's not fundamentalISTS that are the root of evil but fundamentalISM because it leads people astray who might otherwise behave more kindly toward others.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Medical neglect in favor of faith healing works much in the same way. Most of those followers would never subject their kids to such danger and torment except that they listen to the leaders who tell them stupid things. Why do they listen? Because fundamentalism is inherently authoritarian. And what happens is that parents who really loved their children are heartbroken when the kids die of preventable causes and the parents are brought up on charges. Not because they are bad people but because the got suckered by their religious leaders into believing something incredibly stupid and dangerous: that faith healing is an adequate replacement for medical care. (Of course, I'm still in favor of criminal charges against such people. It's the only way to reduce the number of child deaths from such bad choices.)

Dolores Lear

Will: (About Susan) "And your definition of abuse seems rather limited; I would include killing the child before it can even be born as the most extreme abuse; it fact, it is indisputable that abuse has increased drastically since the legalization of this monstrosity. The message being sent to the massses is, if your kid is in the way, eliminate it.
The Pope, who is despised almost as much as fundamentalists around here, correctly diagnosed this as the "culture of death"."

Me:
The Culture of Death does not stop at Abortion. Ever since the Adam and Eve Clones, Reproduced Inbred/Misbred Children, Death and Destruction of All Life has been the Lifestyle of Humans on Planet Earth.

Will, it is up to the Male to end Abortion, by stop making females pregnant. That is the First Cause of Abortion of the Child, and also Abuse of Male, Female and Child.

Why do Humans keep blaming the Female, for Abortion and Child Abuse, two of the results of unwanted pregnancy, while the Male is busy, with Child Abuse, and Killing all the Humans Males Reproduce, in War?

Humans with High Tech Science are Reproducing a Human 'Fetus' in the Lab, but still put it into the female womb, sometimes ending in Birth Death.

Humans should Construct a High Tech Womb. With No Female Reproduction, Control of Human Reproduction, should End All Abuses, and Abortions, done by Humans to Humans.

Our Runaway Reproduction, of 7 Billion Humans, because of No Control of Male Flesh Lust, has Overpopulated our Home Planet.

Why did Adam and Eve take over Reproduction of Humans, from the Lord God? This Original Sin, caused Inequality, Division and Death to the Human Species on Planet Earth.

And the Death of our Planet is Near from Male Lust.

Susan

Bill, thanks for all these great book reviews! I think I am most interested in "Thin Blue Smoke," and also the book by the woman who calls herself a "Lutheran slut."

About Jezebel -- ever since reading her story it's puzzled me that anyone. ever. found anything sexy about a woman who found her husband sulking about some land he couldn't have, and just went out and had the property-owner murdered and took the land for her husband. I suppose it's just our societal-tendency to equate "bad girls" with sexiness and "good girls" with frigidity ... or maybe it's that "sex is the original-sin"-thing Dolores keeps reminding us of. :)

From last night -- adamh, you tell Agnostic Pope that his historical-reporting is screwed, and insult his reading-choices -- but then you stop short of saying anything specific about what was WRONG with the historical-account he gave. Why don't you follow Just Thinking's advice to me, and be more specific in your attacks? Otherwise, it just looks like you're worked up in a wad because you don't like what someone's saying -- but lack the knowledge to intelligently-counter the ideas you find so objectionable.

Will, I'm certainly not going to claim that no freethinker or atheist ever does anything wrong. But I think Lynne hit the nail on the head in her post today. It's fundamentalISM that encourages parents to feel they have certain rights over their children.

Individuals of any religious or philosophical-persuasion can be screwed-up and do evil -- but Christian fundamentalISM encourages parents to use physical violence to mold the wills of their children and make them more compliant, so they'll have the "right attitude" toward authority-figures, obey pastors/husbands as adults, and so on.

FundamentalISM teaches that parents are "doing their children a disservice" if they don't make them compliant.

Dolores Lear

This week's promise: He's alive!
Jesus is my hope and trust
"Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. How we thank God, who gives us victory over sin and death through Jesus Christ our Lord! 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 NLT"

"Jesus lives, and so shall I: Death, thy sting is gone forever! He for me hath deigned to die, lives the bands of death to sever. He shall raise me from the dust: Jesus is my hope and trust."
"Jesus Lives, and So Shall I" Christian Furchtegott Gellert (1715-1769)

"Without Christ, human life is merely prolonged death. Everything is decaying. But Jesus gives us eternal life, which radically changes our life on earth. Not only do we have eternity to look forward to, but we have the power to live in right relationship with God and others right now in our daily lives. Jesus is our hope for the future and our trust for each day. Praise Him!" by Mark Norton and Robert Brown."

Me:
With our High Tech Science Knowledge today of All Life as we Know it made from Atoms/Dust and ElectroMagntic Force/Spirit.

All the Supernatural Belief amd Myth Writings, by Fallen Humans without this Science Knowledge, can be translated as High Tech Science Fact today.

"He Shall Raise Me From The Dust", has a different meaning for Humans with High Tech Science of Atoms/Dust.

Today 7 Billion Humans have been raised from the Dead, Dust/Atoms, and are Alive today, in Human Form, through Heterosexual Body Birth.

This joining of Atoms and the EMF, for Live as we Know it, is done by GOD the maker of the Atom and the EMF, not a 'Higher Being' God/Person.

Continued.

Dolores Lear

Continue.

High Tech Human Higher 'Being' Persons, can make Humans in a High Tech Lab. Humans today Reproduce a Human Fetus in a High Tech Lab.

GOD joins the Elements together, that make a Person, in a High Tech Lab Womb, or in the Female Womb.

The 'He' Peace God of Religion and Myth, are our High Tech Science Human Ancestors, Male and Female, Colonized Life on Earth 'in the beginning'. Jesus is Physically Alive with them.

Human History has come from the High Tech Colonization, to the Human Fall of the loss of High Tech with Body Birth. Humans have been the Killers ever since, not our High Tech Ancestors/Religious Gods.

The High Tech Humans of the Noah/Atlantis, were the Killer God then, and they Caused Manmade Planetary Flood that destroyed most Life.

Noah and others, restarted, and Humans today are the Killer Gods, who again have our Planet covered with all types of Waste, Nuclear Waste, and Nuclear Bombs.

The Last Days of Life on Earth, with a Coming Nuclear 'Arm'ageddon, and a Planetary Judgement Day Fire, is at Hand.

There is No Eternal Physical Life After Death, on earth, except in Generation Birth, Death and Rebirth until a Home Planet is Destroyed.

Our High Tech Ancestors with Jesus will Return to Planet Earth for the Final Destruction of Earth by Fallen Body Birth Humans.

They will take a new Group along with Jesus as their leader, to a new Planet.

Religion and Myth can be translated by High Tech Science, for the Truth of Eternal Human Physical Purebred Human Male and Female Clone Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Nothing is More Important to Human Eternal Life After Birth, Than Balanced GOD Elements on Planets and in Spaceships.

Susan

Just Thinking -- I never taught the a-b-c's or 1-2-3's to my children. They pretty-much seemed to absorb them by osmosis. Though of course child-led learning doesn't mean parents don't provide books, toys, games, tv/computer, and other resources/experiences that they think their children will enjoy.

In a literate home and society, children are surrounded with the printed word, so it's only natural for them to pick up on letters, numbers, and so on. I'm certainly not clainming that a child growing up in a non-literate tribe is going to pick up things he's never been exposed to by osmosis -- but such a child will gain lots of valuable information to help him live competently in his own society.

Also, for children (in literate societies) who are allowed to pursue reading at their own paces, according to John Holt the "average" age for learning to read is about 9 (meaning, of course, that some do it much earlier and some much later) --

This seems "shockingly-behind" to some people -- only, you really can't tell by adulthood which child learned to read at 9 or 12, and which one learned at 6 or 4. And children who are allowed the time/space to get interested on their own are a lot less likely to "hate reading" and see it as a "chore" they "have" to do.

You say that people "learn better when you teach, have them perform, review, and regularly test." I say that all this focus on "performance" diverts kids' interest and pleasure away from the joy of learning, and instead they get focused on pleasing/impressing the adults, competing with other kids, and getting extrinsic rewards -- whereas, before schooling, the learning itself was what gave them joy. (Continued)

Susan

(Continued) Alfie Kohn, in his book "Unconditional Parenting," cites research showing that even where a child finds intrinsic joy in doing a particular task -- if you start rewarding her for it, her focus gets diverted from the task to the reward. And after getting used to the reward-system, the child tends to lose interest in doing the task just for the joy of it.

This seems so harmful, especially when it comes to tasks like reading, which virtually everyone in our society is bound to eventually see a need for if it's not pushed on them. I communicate a lot with other unschooling parents online (and now am actually getting to know some in real life) -- and one thing I'm hearing is that lots of later readers who are gamers, eventually tackle learning-to-read because of their intense desire to play more and more complicated games.

Which is one reason it seems so ludicrous to me that many see computer games as antithetical to kids learning to read.

Disclaimer: I don't want to give the impression that my views are shared by all other freethinkers. I am, however, learning that unschooling requires a basic trust in human nature which some of my fundamentalist Christian friends see as "un-Scriptural."

Which I guess brings us back to the spectrum Lynne shared about yesterday (with fundamentalism and questing at opposite ends). I'm just guessing that fundamentalists are more likely to want to control and guide their children's educations, whereas questers are more likely to want to respond to their children's interests, and offer guidance that coincides with those interests.

This may seem unrelated to "faith matters" -- but to me it seems closely-related. Especially the whole rewards-thing. When you think about it, it's really more fun to be kind and love others than it is to act selfishly. You don't need $5.00 to help you enjoy sharing your ice cream with a neighbor-kid, or letting someone into your lane of traffic. It feels good to make others feel good. (Continued)

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Yesterday: Thanks Delores and Susan for your thoughts on my friend. He’s tough and I’m almost certain they will work through it. It’s to bad people are taught this makes any kind of difference. If two people love each other does that mean you have to think alike? If this is so, there would be a lot more divorces. We don’t always like the same food, colors and hobbies, but when it comes to religion it is different in so many cases. Sometimes people simply change during life. It’s natural and if it is not harmful should be accepted.

Agnostic Pope. Interesting story. You have certainly seen things a lot of have not and probably won’t. I do agree about the passing of christianity although I see it coming sooner. Islam is younger and unfortunately it will take longer. The older version of the jewish faith will probably be first, it being the oldest of the Abrahamic beliefs. The present American Jewish culture, for me, has evolved into a tolerant secular fairness and if does well demographically, will stick around longer. Christians and Muslims should learn from this.

I do believe we have reached a point in the present future where the need for a biblical personal god is no longer of use or need. And as you said, “But we will eventually reach a day where Christ will be viewed by the masses of humanity the same way we "modern" humans now view the gods of ancient Greece, Egypt, and Persia (the Zoroaster-ancient Persia).”

A lot of us see that now and more and more younger people are seeing it too. I hear the younger people talk of this often. Several young people joined our movie night recently and expressed, even though they called themselves Xs, they had no need for church. In fact they were greatly disappointed in it. Continued

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Continued
The younger nonreligious, atheists, agnostics are growing and are at that level now, seeing organized religion as myth. It doesn’t make sense to them. I know of a large number of them, and the last thing they want to do, too, is to attend our nonreligious meetups.

Young people are young people, and that is that. They are too busy having fun and simply want to enjoy life. Excessive rules and regulations are not their cup of tea nor was it mine. Both sides, it seems, are magnificently tolerant of civil liberties. This will be a great asset for societies.

All this tells me the future generations are naturally evolving away from the old stuff on both sides. I see a rebirth of enlightened thinkers and in the wake of the disappearance of organized religions, they will trail shortly behind, only a bit later, to join the natural world. And organized religions will be a speck in history.
Stephen Tyler of Arosmith sings “believe in your dreams.” What do we have left? Life. “Dream on.” And stay out of the past.

We will grow to great expectations once all this war and arguing is resolved. Space will be scattered with space stations, visiting places once upon a time never envisioned, and our knowledge will be greater than imagined.

Awww…to see that time.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Susan

(Continued) Small children will often need guidance in learning to respect others (i.e. in learning not to just grab what they want out of others' hands) -- but they gradually need less and less guidance as they grow in their knowledge of how much fun it is to play with others.

As they grow, difficulties are still going to come up where they need our help -- but they seriously don't need to be rewarded for being kind to their freinds, or punished for being cruel. Friendship is such a wonderful thing in and of itself: Once we've been given the opportunity to experience it, we start focusing on the feelings of our friends, and to know we've badly hurt a friend is the worst possible feeling imaginable.

What I'm learning seems radically-different from the view of human nature that's promoted through fundamentalist Christianity. In fundamentalISM, there often seems to be a concern about "cheap grace" -- meaning, I guess, that there's a "danger" in people feeling truly loved and accepted by God just as they are, and truly secure in God's love regardless of what they think, say, believe, or do -- the danger being, I guess, that they are just going to treat others like total crap because they "can."

Cole, about what you said the other day, wondering why couples think shared religious-beliefs are important: If your friend's wife believes that her husband will burn forever in hell if he dies without believing "the right things" -- well, she's going to place as much importance on this, as he likely would if he discovered a hard lump in her breast, and she refused to get it looked at because she didn't believe in doctors.

I know, cancer is a scientifically-proven reality, and hell isn't. But to people who've been schooled in that "good old hell-fire religion," hell is every bit as real as cancer, and even more alarming since they see it as lasting forever.

Just Thinking

There is a reason why we have books, Susan. There is a reason that we don't have medical students sit in a room, squint, think really hard, and then hand them a piece of paper afterwards. Performance-based education is important: people should know how to apply education, rather than simply stuffing their heads full of ideas that may or may not be correct. Usefulness is important, and performance-based education is okay. It's okay. Really.

It's ironic that you would fight against performance-based education. When you were educated in fundamentals of religion as a child, you totally misunderstood those fundamentals. You should have been quizzed, tested, questioned, and asked to apply those fundamentals. If you had, then your obvious miscomprehensions could have been detected and corrected. Untested, non-performance-based education is often worse than useless, as it was in your case.

It seems to me that your pride keeps you from admitting to your long-held miscomprehensions. You'd rather cover by blaming the fundamentals and/or the people who taught you fundamentals. This has now evolved to critizing those who teach basics and fundamentals at all! You've turned into a new age "free thinker" who thinks that any collection of thoughts is okay, just as long as it is your own. In your imaginary world, children spontaneously learn the alphabet without being shown anything. Somehow in your imaginary world, children just learn about numbers through cosmic discernment.

Susan, you're trying too hard to justify an educational system that makes no sense at all. Experts are experts because of performance-based criteria. And education without fundamentals is useless. Each field has accepted truths, from which other truths follow. Fundamentals are essential. Correct understanding and correct application of fundamentals is essential--otherwise all you have is a potentially-dangerous bunch of untested, useless, possibly misunderstood or inconsistent facts.

Will Graham

Susan, it will be interesting to see how far your kids go acadmically; in fact, I wonder how far you went.

And COLE MORGAN and IGOR DYBAL; when are you going to stop pestering people at Lutheran Bible studies, and go protest at a MOSQUE?

Bahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Wow Susan, you certainly ruffled Will’s tail feathers. He’s easily offended, likes to whine.

This talk of over controlling and spanking children hits home for me. Believe me, it’s not right. In my experience, to often, it changes people for the worse. It has stayed with me all my life.

I’m not looking for any kind of pity. I find weakness of no use. I was a tough kid and got through it, but it did affect me greatly. As I have grown older it’s hardly an issue, but it never entirely goes away.

My parents were hardly religious at all until I was ten. During my younger years I had many encounters with religion through friends and other relatives, from tent revivals all the way through crazy Pentecostal types. I had a nutty childhood. Lived in the country and the city. It was both wonderful and fulfilling in many ways and awful.

Even though my parents were not church goers early in my life they were raised with fundamental church teachings “Spare the rod, spoil the child,” type crapola.

As I grew up I never lived in the best of neighborhoods. My father worked a lot, so I think that added to his short temper. The spankings, which often ended with me bleeding, were never consistent. They could come from anywhere. These too often were over simple childhood crimes. A conversation would have been enough for a kid like me.

These continued until I was nine or so. During this time my mother was ill off and on and was also suppressed by my father. She too was angry and would say horrible things to me and spank me.

To escape these I would cry, hold my breath and pass-out on the floor in front of them. That is how much I hated a spanking. Or before I would black out, my father would throw me up in the air and catch me so I would catch my breath. Even years later my mother would smile and laugh at how my face would turn blue before I passed out. Pretty cool, huh? Amazing how kids learn to protect themselves. Continued

Susan

Just Thinking, about formal education: as children start to focus in on the things they like learning about and doing the most, they are bound to reach a plateu, where in order to keep growing in the areas they want to grow in, they need to hook up with mentors, and/or read books, and/or follow a course of formal study.

Children are born with a natural desire to be competent in the world. As they approach the teen years and start thinking about where they want to go in life, they will often decide they want to follow a curriculum so, for example, they can do well in college-entrance exams, or what-have-you.

What unschooling parents are finding, is that when their kids decide they WANT to learn, say, higher math or chemistry or essay-writing (not necessarily because they enjoy it, though they might, but because they now see they need it to get to where they want to go), their learning is greatly expedited, and what might have taken several years to learn when the kid had no idea WHY it was important, can often be learned much faster because of the inner-motivation.

So, I am not knocking formal education, per se. I will certainly help my children pursue formal learning, when/if they choose it as a means of going after what they want in life. I just disagree with you that it's the starting-point for a child's learning.

As far as your concern that my fundamentalist Christian leaders didn't quiz, test, question, and ask me to apply fundamentalist principles to my daily life -- I grew up in a church where these things regularly-happened. And, as one youth leader told me, I was such an easy kid to work with because I always talked so openly about everything I was learning, thinking, and doing.

These "experts" saw no "miscomprehensions" on my part, because I had so. totally. swallowed. the whole fundamentalist line of thinking about EVERYTHING. I seriously doubt that you'd have seen any "misconceptions" in me, Just Thinking, if you'd known me then. You now see me as having misconceptions, simply because I am now speaking out against Christian fundamentalism.

Red Biddy

Bill asked us for conversion stories, the other day. Haven't seen many on this page.
My own "born again" experience was almost instantaneous from a relgious mindset to atheism - does this count ?
I was having a tooth pulled under anesthesia for the first time and had a wonderful AHA moment in best Oprah style. Ten minutes of complete unconsciousness had passed by the time I woke up and in a flash I realized that if that lack of consciousness were extended to Eternity there could be no life after death. Yaaaa! Free at last -Free at last !
The imaginary concept of any kind of life after death is quite horrifying and a purely human concept designed to keep us in a state of abject terror.
Now this is not to say that I or anyone else who loses their faith in the supernatural, entirely loses the fear of the actual process of dying: aging, getting sick and so on, but just as we human beings are unable to know where we were before we were born (because we didn't exist) we won't know where we are when we are dead either. I find this thought very comforting.

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Continued
We moved to another neighborhood and it stopped. They got religion. Baptists. They became Sunday school teachers, bus driver, deacon, bus mechanic for the church: Sunday morning and night, Weds. nights, visitations-which are very rude- and whatever else they could find to do in the name of god.

Then it shifted to mental abuse. Controlling, shame and guilt went on until I was14-15. I grew bigger than my father and it all stopped. I left the church when I was 12. I would get every job I could find to work Sundays to avoid church. Two years was enough for me. I saw nothing fair about it. From 10 on I was very angry and got into a lot of trouble.

Things mellowed over the years and my parents changed enough so that we could get along. I learned later my father was beat as a child.

The past 35 years or so I have tried to stay away from anger. I get upset and disgusted with issues, but I try to put a lot of distance between myself and this useless emotion.

I know a young man who was raised and schooled in a Baptist church. I learned a lot about him over a two year period. He knew I was an atheist. When he was 17 a special teacher was brought into the church to teach parenting. She said you should never use your hand to discipline a child. It’s too personal. You should use a board.

I couldn’t believe I was hearing this. Everything from my childhood flooded back in. I strongly discouraged this kind of teaching for a few minutes while he nervously listened. It didn’t do any good. His parents and church had their hooks in him. Two years later he is studying to be a preacher as I type this. And the sad part? I strongly believe he will continue with this kind of teaching/preaching.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Will Graham

Cole, considering you are an accomplice of Iggy, and he has posted all kinds of crapola about family members of friends of mine on his site...family members who don't even post there...I am afraid that we are going to have to take your claims about your upbringing with a grain of salt.

Although it is often true that atheists had abusive fathers, so there may be a grain of truth to it.

So, whether you are lying or not...who knows? There is no way for you to verify it. I guess I...how do atheists put it...I, "lack belief in your claims".

Your story is just a little to pat a fit with Susan's latest lectures.

Will Graham

By the way, COLE MORGAN, I repeat...when are you and IGOR DYBAL going to pull some of the same stunts at a MOSQUE that you have at churches. (According to Iggy, anyway.)

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

A lot of nice chat going on on a beautiful day like today in Kansas City! I am glad the town is slowed in - it's quiet, phones are not ringing, no e-mails, just chilling...
______________________
Susan wrote>>>>>>>
I know, cancer is a scientifically-proven reality, and hell isn't. But to people who've been schooled in that "good old hell-fire religion," hell is every bit as real as cancer, and even more alarming since they see it as lasting forever.

Susan, this is what I call a "lightbulb" moment... For me it never happened, as to me "irreality" is just that - fables and space daddy Jebus talk. This "irreality" to me is a "reality" if you want it this way.

I have passed on to other levels of "lightbulb" moments a long time ago - having fun with my family, wife, my dog - today she (dog :o) was playing outside in the snow half way up her feet. This beats the hell out of "opening heart and knowing Jebus and his space daddy".

I wonder how many religious idiots will die tomorrow morning in Kansas City going to church on streets and highways? Don't know, will watch the news and extrapolate the 76% who are religious - this should be pretty close.

How many religious fundies will say it was "Gawd's plan?" - or should we start calling them fundametal-ISTS?

The other day I learnt from a discussion group on the Internet how to duplicate web site pages with the came "dynamic" content that I can change once and it changes them all - 1 or a 1,000. This was a phenomenal development - perhaps one that can be described as "letting Jebus into your heart and surrendering to Gawd?"

Don't know how to compare. And really don't care!

It is nice to be "ap-atheist" :o) - especially today!

You crazy religous folks, pass on chain letters by e-mail to everyone you know in Kansas City and Midwest NOT TO GO TO CHURCH TOMORROW.

SLEEPING IN ON SUNDAY = ATHEISM :O)

Just Thinking

Susan, why not take 'unschooling' to the next stage: ask the children when they would like to get up for the day, and whether or not they want to study anything at all. That's a good idea. While you're at it, why not ask them if they would rather play or help with chores. And after a couple of generations of that, good luck finding any highly-skilled medical professionals. Or, for that matter, much excellence at all.

Euphemisms such as 'quester' won't change 'lack of discipline' into anything good. Buzz words cannot change 'lack of fundamentals' into 'excellent education.' There is no replacement for proper fundamentals and structured, disciplined, performance-reviewed study.

Those who are not exposed to well-educated professionals often fail to understand the importance of a quality, disciplined education. By rejecting performance reviews, someone can delude themselves into believing that their opinions count as much as the informed opinions of real experts in a field. Every crackpot idea about Science, spaceships and cloning becomes as valid as informed Science. Suddenly every crackpot idea about education is elevated to the level of 'professional opinion.'

An amateur runner can easily compare their performance to that of an Olympic athlete. But someone who is poorly-educated may find it impossible to comprehend the difference between their level of understanding and that of a talented expert, especially if they reject performance reviews.

Dolores Lear

This week's Daily promise, 3/29/09: God cares for the persecuted
The stress of captivity
"Beside the rivers of Babylon, we sat and wept as we thought of Jerusalem." Psalm 137:1. NLT."
"In captivity in Babylon, the Jews wept for their homeland and prayed for the day when they might return. But when the day of their release from captivity finally came and they were allowed to return, only about fifty thousand (out of hundreds of thousands) made the trek back to Jerusalem. Why?
For one thing, some of the Jews were making a good living in Babylon—a better living than their fathers had made in Jerusalem. Others had married Babylonian spouses and become assimilated into Babylonian culture. They had forgotten Jerusalem. Can you blame them? Seventy years of captivity is a long time.
The Bible speaks of heaven as our Jerusalem and suggests that where we are now living is Babylon on earth. How comfortable are you in your Babylon? How are you faring there? Have you forgotten that you, too, are an exile, a pilgrim in a foreign land? What are you looking ahead to?"

Me.
Revelation 1:1,2. KJV. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

So where is the Jerusalem of the End Times? In the City Jerusalem on Earth, or the Spaceship New Jerusalem that descends down from Heaven?

It is impossible to translated Ancient Scriptures, without the High Tech Science Knowledge of today.

Humans today, Do Know: How to Colonization of a Planet. How to Reproduce Human Fetus' and Clone Animals, in the Lab.

Humans Do Know: How to make Airplanes and Spaceships and fly up in the air and out into Space.

What is so Supernatural, today, about the God of Scriptures in our Human Image? High Tech Science?

Dolores Lear

A Pastor on TV, today, had a sermon about Walking with Jesus, using Romans.

Me;
How did the people that walked with Jesus live? Celibate, In a Commune with Equal Sharing of Daily Needs?

How did that Lifestyle of Jesus', get changed to a Trinity Religion, with temples made by Human Hands? With Jesus Equal, to God, and the Holy Spirit, Three Persons in One Godhead?

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me." John 16:13-15 NLT

The Spirit of the Truth of High Tech Science/the Holy Spirit, has been revealed for the past 100 years.

High Tech Science/Holy Spirit, will explain all the Mysteries of the Past, of the Supernatural Peace Lord God in Genesis, Our High Tech Ancestors/Angels, and all the Supernatural Religious Writings and Myths.

The High Tech Colonization of our Planet, to the Killer Gods of the High Tech Noah and Atlantis Society, like America and the World are today, will be revealed.

Are we ready to accept the influence of the Holy Spirit and High Tech Science in our Society today? Why are we using the Power of the Holy Spirit for Evil, instead of for Good?

Why keep busy, make temples by Human Hands, while God's Temple Earth is being destroyed?

Why are God's Children Starving and being Killed? When did God make Haves and Havenots, or did Humans do this?

God made Equal Male and Females, not by Body Birth. These Perfect Humans made Unequal Humans by Body Birth Inequality, Inhumanity and Death. Why?

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