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February 18, 2009


Dolores Lear

What is a Legal Marriage? Marriage was made by Humans, with a piece of paper, after Adam and Eve sinned and had Children.

God did not institute a Civil Legal Marriage License or Ceremony, in Christian Religious writings.

Today, a marriage ceremony by Religious leaders is not legal, without a Civil marriage license. When did Humans start using a Civil License to Marry?

When two people get a State license to marry, is there a law that says if you are married by Religious leader, you are also married in the eyes of the state, without a State ceremony?

It is a handed down acceptance, but is it a Civil Law?
A marriage ceremony today, by Religious leaders is not legal without a Civil License to Marry.

Is a Common Law Marriage Legal in the State, after a Heterosexual Couple lives together for a period of time? Would this Work for Homosexuals also?

Bill has a good idea. Have Heterosexual and Homosexual Couples married by the State, and then have a Religious Ceremony, if people want to be married in the sight of God.

It is not necessary to be married by a Religious Leader, for the Equal Civil Marriage Law. Right Bill?

God did not have trouble raising Children, God only made Adults. Gods troubles were with Adults. What made God's Humans think having Children, would be a piece of cake Lifestyle?

In God's Sight, as Humans Multiplied, did Children make Legal Civil Rules necessary in the sight of Man, in Civil Governments set up by Man?

Lot's of What Ifs. Very Interesting Subject!

adam harrison

While we discuss things like this, a holocaust is being ignored in our midst. A recognized organizaton, founder by the atheist Margaret Sanger, facilitates the elimination of more Black Babies every month than the KKK ever dreamed of.

Of course, this is all appoved by the same court that once said that a black man was only 3/5th's of a white man, that black women could be forcibly sterilized (Buck v. Bell) and that "separate but equal" was the standard of justice.


adam harrison

Bill, of course there are many views of marriage. But perhaps a Christian should at least mention the view Jesus expressed, in Matthew 4:4-6.

Of course, this is for Christians; frankly I do not feel the Christians need the sanction of the state for this.

Dave Miller

"My proposal is for everyone who wants to get married first to go to the government and do the necessary paperwork for legal recognition of the proposed union...[t]hen any couple joined together legally in that way could, if desired, come to a religious community and seek a blessing."

I understand that this is the way it's done in Europe, Bill. From a Protestant perspective, I think they have their theology straight. The Reformation "gave marriage back to the state," declaring that it is not a sacrament. Somehow (I don't know the history of this) we've lost that understanding in the U.S. where the majority of people seem to view marriage as something quasi-sacramental.

The controversy over same-gender marriage has simply exposed a problem which has been there for some time.

Iggy - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

To all theists and non theists reading this - i.e. modified fishes :o)

Today, Wed, 7:00 pm - JCCC Speaker on topic of evolution
JCCC Scholars Lecture on “Understanding the Diversity of Fishes”

Dr. Holcroft will present an overview of a large collaborative project to which she is contributing to reconstruct the evolutionary relationships among the euteleost fishes using data from their anatomy, development, and genes.

This event will be held at M.R. & Evelyn Hudson Auditorium, Nerman Museum of Contemporary Art, Johnson County Community College

Although a few days belated, what better way is there to celebrate Darwin’s 200th Birthday and the 150th anniversary of his historic publication, On the Origin of Species!
Tomorrow, Thursday 11:00 am - JCCC Speaker on topic of evolution
Fear and Loathing of the Lab Coat and Nerd Goggles: A Savage Journey into the Heart of Fish Evolution

This event will be held at Craig Community Auditorium, Johnson County Community College

Most people, if asked to describe a scientist, would probably include words such as “lab coat,” “safety goggles” or “Petri dish” in the description. It’s less likely they would consider words such as “wetsuit,” “Fiji” or “transparent fish specimens.” However, those words are better descriptors of the way in which Dr. Holcroft develops and tests biological hypotheses, called phylogenies, about the evolutionary relationships among groups of fishes. This isn’t your mother’s scientific method.

After all, we are just modified fish…

Dolores Lear

This week's Daily promise, 2/18/09: God is in charge of the world
Do you pray for local, national and world leaders?
"Pray this way for kings and all others who are in authority, so that we can live in peace and quietness, in godliness and dignity." 1 Timothy 2:2 NLT
Prayers for kings and authorities
We pray for those in authority over us because it helps us live in "peace and quietness." And because it develops within us the traits of "godliness and dignity." In many ways these simple qualities sum up the whole of our Christian witness on earth. - It is through consistent and deliberate prayer—for others, as well as ourselves—that these qualities are obtained."

Humans better start Living an Equal Sharing Lifestyle of GODs Resources, and stop Killing Each Other and our Home Planet.

Why are Humans waiting for God's answer our Prayers, while they keep Killing all Life on Earth.

Where did this Death Wish come from? Original Sin?

God, our Human Ancestors put Equal Male and Female Humans in charge, when they Colonized Earth.

Do Humans really think, God our Human Ancestors takes Sides, with the Life they Colonized on Earth?

What did Our Ancestors and Jesus mean, by Peace for All Humans?

If we Colonize a Planet, would we take sides, if they start Killing Each Other like on Earth?

How about our International Space Station, if Killing the Pilot or the Pilot dies? Do they have automatic docking procedures?

Can Humans on Earth, Live by God's Commandment, 'Thou shalt not Kill'?

Why should God, Our Human Peace Ancestors, take sides with Killers that Pray, who are on both sides of a disagreement or War?

Prayers are not Saving Earth, or Humans from Killing and Dying.

Eternal Physical Life, After Birth, is for Living Purebred Peace Humans.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org


I think your suggestion is quite reasonable, especially considering that we already have non-religious marriage in the US and still call it marriage. My husband and I were married outdoors in a regional park by a Humanist celebrant. Yet nobody calls us "civil union-ed" - we are married! Likewise, people can get married at a county courthouse or 5 miles out to sea - depending on state law, you don't even need a ceremony or someone to officiate - you just need to sign the papers.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

So I don't think homophobic churches really fear the state marrying gays because the state already marries couples that do not seek church approval for their union. What they really fear is that OTHER churches will bless gay marriages. But they know they can't stop other churches from doing what they want to do, so they want the state to slow down the process of gay marriage becoming more socially acceptable. And I do believe that process is happening - even though Prop 8 passed in California if you look at the age difference between those who voted for and against it you can see that the younger generation is much more accepting of gays. So it's just a matter of time.

Will Graham

Lynne, Iggy says we are all just modified fish. (Of course this is reductionist nonsense passing for science.)

So what are you getting so excited about? Especially if it just a matter of time? So what? You are as bigoted toward Christians as some are toward homosexuals. Yada, yada, yada...

I mean, the spew that comes out of the atheists mouths around here is nothing but fish excrement as far as I am concerned.
Who ya kiddin, sista?

Will Graham

Bill, all you are saying is that people must submit more and more to the government in every aspect of their lives.

This of course is the standard in an officially atheistic society, but not in a secular one.

There are lot of us who are not going to submit.

Will Graham

Reminder: Frank Turek debates atheist at Washburn Univerity in Topeka! 7:00 Feb 19th, 2009.

Thanks to Iggy for letting us in on this last week.

Iggy - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Frank Turek will not be debating anyone, he will be presenting a talk and taking questions.

A couple of comments from atheists in Topeka who may attend are below...

Christians, please, pay attention, Jesus commands you to "hate your life" to say nothing of your relatives :o(

Aren't you a bit too old to have an imaginary friend?
"It is posted as a 'Family Friendly Event'" Clearly, then, there will be no mention of the teaching of Christ: "Now large crowds were travelling with him; and he turned and said to them, "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple'." Luke 14.25-26 (The New Revised Standard Version translation); see also Matthew 10.34-39. This is a major theme of Jesus' preaching in the Gospels.

"Does this religious truth matter? It does when kids carry out its implications. Instead of good citizens who see people made in the image of God, we are producing criminals who see no meaning or value in human life. Ideas have consequences". This is what Frank Turek spends an entire book attempting to argue. He knows his science is bad, so he uses scare tactics instead to convince people to believe in god.

I read his book a couple of times as a Christian, and I have been in the process of reading it again as an atheist. I cannot adequately describe how terrible it is, so here are a few quotes from chapter 2, page 68: "...if the atheists are right, then we might as well lie, cheat, and steal to get what we want because this life is all there is, and there are no consequences in eternity".

Iggy - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

American Composer Puts Evolution to Music
A musical production that features our favorite scientist—Charles Darwin.

Congrats! You're Citizens--Again !
Obama brings hope to U.S. humanists, but how much change can we expect?

Letters to the Editor
HNN Readers React

Cathartic Comics
...an assortment of cartoons and comic strips about humanism, atheism, religion, science and freethought.

Humanist Humor
Humility, thy name is Charles.

Will Graham

If you don't call taking questions from atheists a debate, thats OK.

Regardless, he will demolish their irrationalities.


Hate-peddler Abe Foxman said, ""Every day that Williamson remains" a member of the Church "is an affront. There needs to be action on Williamson, so we know that there are no Williamsons in the Church hierarchy."

The Vatican should say, "Every day that Abe remains with the godless ADL is an affront. Until the ADL stops its nefarious profiteering off of the holocaust, we do not recognize its significance."

Bill, you are worse than the people who blew up the Regensburg quote to be more than it really was. So we can't have people like Williamson in church because Jewish tolerance fascists say so? Your anti-Catholicism has become thinly veiled. Finger-wagging at Benedict for allowing a man to receive the sacraments because he has come to a different conclusion than you over the holocaust is hardly a Christian attitude. The idiocy of the garbage article is the fact that Williamson is not in the Catholic hierarchy, he can now merely receive the sacraments. Get it guys? Though, what do I expect? You seem more interested in the opinions of those who reject Christ than those who seek to serve him. Glad you claim to be on our side... and hope you are for your soul's sake.


Here we go again Iggy. We are bigots for being against bigotry. This type of thinking is with the grass is green because god made it green. You run out of discussion, so you simply attack with nonsense.

I’ve written this before: I find it comical how ancient and primitive beliefs try to blend with modern day science. No matter how you twist or shape it, out dated thinking cannot fit into the puzzle of life. It doesn’t fit unless you change it and if you change it you no longer have your religion. I am surprised more people do not see this and if they do, then they are lying to themselves.

I believe this is what I am seeing with Frank Turek. I’m watching a video on him now. He seems very typical.

More Church/Obama Nonsense

I will agree with one part in the video above, I don’t think Obama is a Christian.

Kirk Cameron gets Owned. Evolution is a myth!

I, for the life of me can not see what the issue is with gays. So many Xs are so scared of real life they want to make it unhappy for others. Gay marriage is going to happen, so get over yourselves.

My special little prayer.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness

Will Graham

SilverSmith/Iggy...you are an anti semitic bigot. You realize that, don't you?

adam harrison

But Cole, you ARE a bigot. You constantly ridicule believers...and their families whether involved in blogging or not...because they ARE believers.

That is bigotry.

And here is a great sample of Biblical Criticism from the Kansas Freethought Forum.


Iggy - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Hey, peeps - here is a video from "The Young Turks"

Traditional marriage is not always found in the bible and Jewish patriarchs had multiple wives & concubines - how about a "servant" exception?

Remember, Jesus said that not a single iota of the OT is to be changed?

Why isn't there a "Red Lobster" ammendment? - funny thing I mentioned this way back. So, why don't we kill adulterers

Aren't you Christians a little too old for an imaginary friend.


Iggy - www.KCFreeThinkers.org


Attorney General just dubbed this country as a nation of cowards when it comes to frankly discussing race relations. Conservative blogs are firing up.

30-50 years ago, blacks and whites could not marry, now they can. We now have a black President. Yet the country is segregated culturally. Whites are significantly hesitant to buy a house in an area that has black and Latinos - I hear this regularly. I also heard this in reverse about schools for black clients - they want to have many minority kids - good luck with that in Johnson County.

We also have a "freethinking" president who clearly acknowledges his "atheistic" roots - his mother and father were atheists, he admits that his mother gave him an excellent education in life lessons and all the values he has in a loving environment. Obama has been mentioning "non believers" in his campaign speeches, in his inauguration speech and also recently "Humanists" during the National Prayer Breakfast.

It appears to me that the Obama cabinet has embarked on a "shaming crazies into intellectual submission" campaign. I see that we still have some "crazy" Catholics on this blog who need to be taught a lesson in judgment by their own god. The work never ends.

Obama heard from his economic advisors, offered to work with Republicans, they snubbed him, she says "I won" and moves on.

He talked about enviornemtn and new sources of energery, hired a scientist to head EPA, times for talks on this are over. He is going to review the minimum fuel efficiency car standards soon I believe.

He will repeal "Don't ask Don't tell" in the military wihtin 1-2 years, there is no doubt about it. Religous crazies will yell and howl, he'd better do it now while the economy is not doing well so crazies have other things on their plate.

It looks like he is taking bird's eye view and "what's next to be tackeled approach".

I believe the next step in the "shaming crazies into intelectual submission" will be science and shaming "religous crazies" into intellectual submission when it comes to them proclaiming their version of fortune telling to be the only true one. This may take a bit longer with all the economic issues going on. Obama's transition team met with Secular Coalition in December and no doubt will meet with them again.


Frank Turek will be in Topeka. Check out our calendar for time and date at KCFreeThinkers.org

I’ve watched a debate between Frank Turet and Christopher Hitchens. Frank’s opinion on morals is comical. His facts: since there are morals, even for atheists (who he agrees most nonbelievers have morals and are good people) there must be a god. How scientific, how brilliant! The sky is blue because god made it blue is what a lot of Xs tell their children. What a cop out! WE aren’t children anymore, we are adults in a natural world, a real world, with not one shred of evidence through any type of scientific method or formula to prove supernaturalism.

Frank Turek elaborates, on this space-daddy-theory, further into absurdity…..Enjoy watching:

Hitchens v Turek - VCU - 1 of 15

My special little prayer. Iggy, I enjoyed the “Nation of Cowards”

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole


Bill, I think it's great what you're doing in your church.

My husband and I both come from fundamentalist Christian traditions, and it's only within the last few years that we've started questioning these teachings, and getting to know God in a whole new way.

It started with our questioning the church's teaching that spanking and other punishments are "God's way" of raising children, and it's been spiralling outward ever since.

Last year I read Daniel A. Helminiak's book "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" -- and as I shared what I learned with my husband, at first it didn't seem very hopeful that he'd open up to these ideas. But in an amazingly short time, he was right on board with me and had started researching for himself.

First, he got the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So," which shares the stories of some families where one member realized s/he was homosexual, and also demonstrates how organizations like Focus on the Family cause great harm to many gay and lesbian young people, by encouraging parents to refuse to accept their children's sexual orientation ...

One mother didn't re-think the issue until her own daughter committed suicide. She is now outspoken in her support of gays and lesbians, and is comforted by the chance to mother and accept other young people, in the way she wasn't able to accept her own daughter until her daughter was gone.

This movie also discusses, from a historical/critical perspective, the Scriptures that have traditianlly been used to condemn homosexuality. It shows how dangerous it is to take everything at face-value, especially when these verses are used to tell others how to live.

Then my husband got the Harvey Milk documentary, and more recently we saw the movie.

I feel so sad that we unquestioningly swallowed the lies we'd been taught for so many years, which narrowed our own lives as well as rendering us un-helpful in furthering justice for gays and lesbians.

But at least we see the light now, and can raise our children free from the harmful prejudices we grew up with.

Iggy - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

By Wonders of the Internet....

Leviticus 18:22 clearly states homosexuality to be an abomination. (old law)

Since we use the "old law" here, let's see what other old laws there are.

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

I followed Bill's link to the commentary about persecution of the Baha'i followers in Iran. At the end it references a US House Resolution (H. Res. 175) condemning Iran for this persecution. You can use this link to write your Rep:

and read the resolution here:

adam harrison

Obama has clearly stated that he is a Christian, but the atheists keep lying and trying to claim him. Read his chapter on Faith in the Audacity of Hope if you have any doubts.

Of course, if they want to claim he is lying about that, then why the heck are we trusting our economic future to some man who may be lying to us about that too> Go figure.

But as to this being a Nation of Cowards...Iggy, you came to this country because the atheistic paradise you were raised in self destructed, and yet you repeatedly bad mouth the United States.

Why don't you just go back to Russia if things are not to your liking here?

Of course, you may be thinking you can import the same failed philosphies of our defunct country to this country, but most people realized that your system failed. 70 years of propaganda techniques, some of which you try to employ, failed and ruined your country.

Some people never learn or are just stupid, I guess.

By the way Cole, since you think you are so superior to Turek...SHOW UP AND CHALLENGE HIM! We will be there to watch the fun!

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