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January 17, 2009

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adam harrison

Bill, your selecton of John Haught's book is excellent; more recently he also wrote GOD AND THE NEW ATHEISM: A CRITCAL RESPONSE TO DAWKINS, HARRIS, and HITCHENS...in which he neatly dissects the Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens cabal.

http://www.amazon.com/God-New-Atheism-Critical-Response/dp/066423304X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232178779&sr=1-1

As to Darwin himself; the man is being glorified for purposes that obviously go beyond his science.

The idea of evolution was not original with him, in fact the idea of natural selection was not even original with him...but he had the connections and got his work published first.

It needs to be remembered that he was a Victorian elitist who married wealth, and never held an academic post in HIS LIFE.

He was indisputably a racist, and believed such things as women being intellectually inferior and that vaccination weakens the race.

He was also full of praise for his cousin Francis Galton, the "FATHER OF EUGENICS", and mentions him several times in THE DESCENT OF MAN...a book in which he also refers to the "savage races", and we know what that led to.

Those things need to be remembered as Darwin is utilized to further other agendas.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

On yesterday's topic...

What a painful story about Ted Haggard. You can see that he has been struggling, that he felt betrayed by his church that pressed him into "exile" and "banning him from Colorado" Oh, my god, something like this can happen only with religion and oppressing political dogma (like communism) - imposing UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW OF THE CHURCH onto a willing defeated person who is at a loss, confused, rejected and struggling with his own sexulaity - EVEN NOW. The most fascinating story - this is the church he has created and raised!

He is still in denial about "biological nature of homosexuality. He calls it a learned behavior. Common sense tells you that EVEN IF GOD HAS CREATED THE UNIVERSE AND US HUMANS IN HIS IMAGE, BIOLOGY, AND SEXUALITY IS NATURAL - i.e. goes according to god's plan. No matter if it is through original sin or not - IT IS THE GRAND PLAN OF GOD. It is "natural" - it is the "bird's eye view" - EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IS "NATURAL" - homosexuality, murder, insest, love, hate, etc. It is all "NATURAL" - because it happens in the NATURAL WORLD (created by God or not) which is clearly is a notion that both theists and non theists share though theists add a whole lot of "supernatural to it".

I cannot but shake my head when I hear folks deny the "self evident" in a case like this - sexual controvresy like this is only possible if you assume space daddy is real. Take him out of the equation and it cannot happen.

I feel sorry for his wife, but she may not feel sorry for herself, to her it maybe a test by god. So, we all chose our own poisons and live with them.

adam harrison

Our local pal FTK with some info on EVOLUTIONARY GEMS, that should prep you all for the Darwin Day Worship Service:

http://reasonablekansans.blogspot.com/

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill,

You write of ways to understand evolution as God's way of drawing us in the future... Nice segway and attempt to merge the model/theory explanation of the world = god of the past with the bright knowledgable god/model of future or rather "our understanding" of the all powerful omnipotent omnipresent god and how he wheals and deals through laws of nature he has created.

You write about evolutionary theory (which has throgh genetics been DRAMATICALLY EXPANDED BY FACTS, DUPLICATABLE EXPERIMENTS, etc) - "Rather, it's more of a model based on the best available evidence."

Religion has been "a model based on teh best availalbe evidence" for thousands of years. It has been RETRIEVING and HIDING IN THE GAPS of science ever since the first shaman/medicine man was running clinical trials on his tribe hundreds of thousands of years ago with herbs, berries, bark of trees, roots and minerals.

You cite evolution theory as "model" based on the best available evidence. Kudos for capturing the essense of what "theory" is in scientific sense - a model, body of knoledge, verified, peer reviewed, double and triple checked - I.E. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IN EVOLUTION IS EXTRAORDINARY HIGH as well as the burden of skepticism. Scientific theories by defintion are also self correcting and NOT AFRAID TO TOSS AWAY WHAT HAS BEEN PROVEN WRONG - e.g. The Piltdown Man Hoax.

What has religion/Xianity in our case tossed away? Apology to Gallileo comes to mind, endorsement of Evolution by the Catholic Church and acceptance by many other Xian denominations, but the god is always there - though he is hiding more and more, so they have to look for him more. I like Forrest Gump's response to "Have you found Jesus yet?" - "I did not know I was supposed to be looking for him!".

To be continued....

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Continued...

Enter faith - compared to "natural world" model you have just accepted the burden of proof historically, psychologically, archeologically and (god forbids you have not read the Bible as 95% of Americans) literally is so low that it is pretty clear at times to me that humanity maybe has a god given destiny to die out from stupidity.

I on many occasions challenged Evangelcials and even ministers to tell the congregation to stop taking their medicaitons for a week because they are all based on evolutionary understanding - you get blank stares from them. They still don't get it. To them science is a gift from god but if you use "do not rely on your own understanding but rely on god alone" (was it in Luke?) then you can see that rationality of this thinking goes to hell in a hand basket very quickly.

Convoluted ideas of god's gift to us and medical advances and even scripture quotes come up left an right. Original sin and us being "evil" all of a sudden is on the back burner with the "spark of knoledge and science" as part of the "tree of knowledge" and some special magical dust that god has sprinkled on the world. They will find "not by reason but faith" references, reason lies in the god's plan, faith is for all, but not all will accept Jesus in their heart and open it up for him.

Are your folks a bit too old to have an imaginary friend? Let us move the world further along.
*******************************
RICK WARREN/GENE ROBINSON PRAY OFF

I think I heard of a woman leading a prayer in one of the ceremonies? But I never heard of a "secular invocation" - there is a humanist "minsiter" at Harvard I think who is pretty sharp and does counceling there. I wonder if Obama realizes that secular poeple compirse 15-20% of the US population and that they actaully were a huge force in voting for him based on his ideals.

Consider irony - secular/non believers voted for a religious president. Rick Warrent who will give prayer said he would never vote for an atheist as they don't believe in nothing higher but themselves.

I love a cruel joke like this :o)

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Cole,

I think there are Academies for atheists :o) - they are called National Academy of Sciences in the US and "Royal Society" in the UK and Europe. They are not bred or taught, facts point to it - 93-95% of folks with muliple PhD's are atheists, agnostics or non religious. The higher your level of education the more pronounced it is. Goes hand in hand with a psychological study I posted yesterday which found that you can believe only in one thing or the other.

I agree it woudl be more productive for the society as a whole as well as for each congregation and the world if we had more "rational people" who are into medicine, biology, cancer & Alzheimer research than into "preacher seminaries" and "Bible Code decoding?" -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3VgQgxiqE or reading into the word "Satan" in "Stairway to Heaven" when it is played backward? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypTBLLu18Q

You typically will have someone like Rick Warren and other "crazy" preachers saying the "darnest things" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIQEm2l2Cr8 - THIS VIDEO YOU NEED TO WATCH FULLY TO UNDERSTAND THE LOGICAL FALLACIES OF RELIGION AND COMPARTMENTALIZING/CHERRY PICKING TO CREATE YOUR OWN MORAL RELATIVISM AND STILL FIND GOD AT IT.

Perhaps, this preacher academy should take on this method of Universism to become just a secular non denominational counceling service - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYw29mkXQ8s . I have been presenting it to BoyScout Regional directors all over the country (5 in total) and NONE OF THEM SAID THAT IT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE IDEA OF GOD AS THEY SEE IT.

This is actually happening already with mega TV preachers like Joel Olsteen and his wife - they have taken common sense approach to common man and are basically running a "feel good" counceling service with 10,000+ attending every serivce and innumerable others by TV. There has been crtiisims that he has taken Jesus as the salvation and pushes "prosperity" gospel through mental healing of sorts.

I think I like his "academy/seminary" model better than that of Ted Haggards or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell's.

Aren't You Folks Too Old to Have an Imaginary Friend?

Patricia

I think the Warren appointment has more legs in the news, for several reasons, but that it is essentially simply more newsworthy when it comes to general U.S. news (not necessarily for religion section or religion-specific news). Prop 8 was recent and the wounds felt by its passage and Warren's support were fresh. There have been the first major demonstrations that America has seen in years, as a result.

No matter how you cut it, the Warren role in the inauguration is the cherry for a church leader. It is always seen as being most central to the event. And although Jones rightly notes that Robinson's appointment in the Episcopal church caused a schism that resounds, it is still a schism confined to one denomination. The schism itself, if I understand it, is deepest with world Episcopal leaders or those outside America. I mean that the latter are those who take the greatest exception to Robinson's appointment, as opposed to U.S. Episcopalians.

Patricia

I don't much care how other people of religion integrate or don't integrate Darwin's theories into their religion. I do care deeply that they refrain from the attempts to disprove science, for their own means, via religious philosophies like Intelligent Design. The result is what amounts to lies and destruction or abuse of the scientific process, itself.

adam harrison

And Patricia, what do you say then the scientific process leads to lies and destruction, itself?

Can you think of any examples of that?

adam harrison

By the way, I find it interesting that one poster claimed that experimentally demonstrable DUPLICABLE experiments are required to sustain scientific claims.

But when it comes to the origin of the universe or the origin of life...where no such duplicable experiments have been sustained, and in the first case may no even be demonstrable IN PRINCIPLE...they simply cast the requirement aside.

Their respone? Ignore the problem.

Come on sports, who ya kiddin?

Dolores Lear

A Heterosexual Pastor, and a Homosexual Pastor, wrote Christian Prayers for President Elect Obama. Where did this God come from? Out There Somewhere?

Darwin did make Evolution understandable. But...Life did not Evolve on Earth.

Literally, Our Home Planet Earth in Genesis, was Colonized by a High Tech Science, Purebred Male and Female Clone Human Species, called God by many Religions.

In Genesis, Eve was made from Asexual Adam's Rib, by High Tech, and was an Equal Asexual Birth Female Clone.

The Perfect Asexual Human Clones, Reproduced Human Cain, Abel, Seth, and Females, with Heterosexual Body Birth.

Heterosexual Male and Female Humans, are just as Genetically and Physically Misbred, as GLBTs. We are All born in the Original Sin.

The Few Humans, in Genesis, Saved After the year-long Noah/Atlantis 'Planetary Flood', wrote or translated writings, about the High Tech Peace Human World 'in the beginning', and the Killer Noah/Atlantis Planetary Society.

Our Planet is covered with the High Tech Megalithic remains of the Noah/Atlantis Society.

Humans since, translated these Writings as 'supernatural' God acts, and included those written 2000 years ago, and in the Muslim writings, all about the same God.

It is Vital to Peace to translate, all Supernatural God writings in our Image, and myths, with our High Tech Science.

Human Species Inbreeding, with No Population Control, does makes Defective Killer Humans.

Humans need to understand 'Why', Humans are HGLBTS, Kill Each Other, and have their Planet covered with Toxic Pollution and Nuclear Bombs.

Perfect Asexual Male and Female Clone Humans, with Free Will, 'fell' to Heterosexual Body Birth, and became the Killer Human Species, with No Free Will. So far, Humans do not Know 'Why'.

Eternal Purebred 'Peace' Human Life After Birth is possible, on Planets and in Spaceships.

High Tech Science, Scriptures, and Myth tells us so.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

The topic of Darwinian Theory of Evolution is a timely one as my body right now is in the battle of survival of the fittest going through chest cold, severe cough and fever.

Through testable and duplicatable actions of cells my body is fighting infection. If everything goes according to evolutionary plan as it has in the past with me I will survive. I have to thank evolutionary miracle (as the best model and approximation for explaining it) for carrying my ancestors through the years of plague and thinning out of the human herd during the dark ages when millions died out and the only "model" to explain it was god's wrath, Satan, sins and weak faith, sprits, demons, etc. Otherwise, I would not live. I have to thank and contemplate chances that my ancestors on dad's side survied the pandemic of historical proportions in Western/Central/Eastern Europe and Belarus where he is from and his Slavic surf roots are firmly planted. I have to appreciate that the long conquest and journey of the Mongol Hoards sweeping Asia for hundreds of years contributed to my mother's genetic ancestors. They both survived thousands of years of thinning out of the Asian based genome on my mother's side and European genome on my fathers side (which is actually nothing more than further lineated Asian one) and lived to tell about it in their own stories and fables of survival, but those stories are too far behind that they can not be relied on.

I am glad god is hiding in the gaps of science in today's material world anymore, this is where he belongs... I am glad that religion is retreaving into the gaps of "personal" experiences as it should, while we are living longer and healthier.

I hope that religious moderates/normal Xians will keep their religion as secret to tehmselves, like a "secret toy" in the kids meal that comes as a suprise when you open it. I only wish it came out as a suprise when the issue at hand is resolved to the satisfaction of everyone and most importantly "individual freedoms" and "civil rights" and not "my god told me so, it settles it".

Dolores Lear

On the subject of Life on Earth, and the Genetic and Physical Makeup of All Humans.

Barack Obama has an interesting Ancestry. A White Mother, and a Black African Father.

He does not come from the American African Slaves, that were oppressed in the Past. He does not have that Hate for the USA, that most Blacks came through Slavery to be a Citizen.

He was raised mostly by a White Mother, a Government worker with Black Women in Africa, a White Grandma, 'Rosie the Riveter', and a White Grandpa, a WW2 Veteran.

What better Background for an America President, without the Black Hate History most Blacks have inherited in the USA.

He has the White Background, and seems to Understand All sides, of the Inequality to Humans of All Races, White, Black, Brown, Red, and Yellow, in the USA.

We have been through all types of Race problems as a Country, but never have we had the Chance to Accept Each Other As Equal Human Citizens, as during this Transaction of Presidents.

I have always been part of the White Majority, and the Way the Christian Right became for the past 30 years, especially the past 8 years, was not what I call Uniting All Citizens, as One Equal Nation under GOD/LIFE.

Will Planet Earth Ever Have Equal Eternal Human Life After Birth?

Or Will Unequal Humans Keep Killing Each Other, Until they Destroy their Eco System and Their Home Planet, with Toxic Pollution, and a Nuclear War to End All Wars?

Is this how God Blesses America, and Planet Earth?

adam harrison

For those believers who may be intimidated by atheists little threats of legal action, and demands that you keep your beliefs "as secret to themselves", like a "scecret toy", remember that the Consitution requires you to do NOTHING OF THE KIND!

You are free to speak your conscience, EVEN IN A PUBLIC SETTING, just as the atheists are.

The AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE can put you in touch with a couple of local attorneys if you have questions.

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

The one thing I think Darwin, and Darwin day, has going for him is, he was a real person on a real world. I agree with George Carlin, “I like it better when you can see something. It does so much for the credibility.” Color me crazy, but I don’t see how invisible beings qualify for celebration or worship.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/01/12/chemicals-that-evolve-and-replicate-in-the-lab-may-simulate-earths-earliest-life/

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/scientists-develop-first-examples-rna-replicates-itself-indefinitely-18191.html

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&scoring=n&q=dna+origin+of+life+self+replication&btnG=Search

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Dave Miller

"I do care deeply that they refrain from the attempts to disprove science, for their own means, via religious philosophies like Intelligent Design. The result is what amounts to lies and destruction or abuse of the scientific process, itself."

Patricia, you'll have to explain that one a little more fully, if you would. Isn't attempting to "disprove science" endemic to the scientific process itself? Surely "science" isn't something which should be above or immune from criticism, skepticism, or attempts to disprove it. After all, isn't falsifiability one of the hallmarks of science?

Red Biddy

I was confused for a while there, as Bill seemed to be recommending a James Haught who (to me at least) is a well known debunker of religion ! Bill's James F Haught is a Roman Catholic writer while James A Haught is editor of the Charleston Gazette and has written a number of lively books like "Holy Horrors" (Prometheus Press) which outlined the horrific acts perpetrated by religion (mostly Christianity of course) in the last 2000 years.
The ridiculous title of John F. Haught's book "God After Darwin: A Theology of Evolution" is enough to put any thinking person off reading it I would have thought ! Theology ? Evolution? Is he trying to start a new religion or what ? Turns out the book is mainly a rant in response to the popular writings of Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens and has had terrible reviews !bFor those who dream of putting God back into evolutionary science may I humbly suggest you read Kenneth R Miller's:Finding Darwin's God.
Miller is a scientist and a practicing Roman Catholic. He was a star witness at the Dover trial and largely responsible for its outcome of keeping ID out of Dover schools.
He aptly quotes Darwin at the end of his book - a passage Darwin added to the 2nd addition of Origins in attempt to calm Xian fears that his evolution theory was godless - here it is:
"There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one;and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most wonderful and beautiful have been, and are being evolved."

Red Biddy

To KCF, Best wishes for a full recovery from the common cold. Must have been that Polar Bear plunge you took last week which lowered your immunity to the rhinovirus you've picked up. I told all you guys you were nuts ! Your Russian genes, even if you did come from Siberia are obviously no protection !
Red Biddy

Lance

Bill, it should also be noted that Kenneth Miller of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute is not only an evolutionary proponent, but Christian. For those of you out there who are having difficulties reconciling a scientific theory with your faith, I'd suggest you order up some of their free educational DVDs. www.hhmi.org

Adam, no one is telling you that you can't pray. Stop lying to yourself and making stuff up.

Dolores Lear

This week's Daily promise, 1/18/09: Obeying God brings great joy
Have you experienced the joy of obedience?
No good thing will the Lord withhold from those who do what it right. O Lord Almighty, happy are those who trust in you. Psalm 84:11-12 NLT
This is what I told them: "Obey me, and I will be your God, and you will be my people. Only do as I say, and all will be well!" Jeremiah 7:23 NLT"

Me:
What does Obeying God mean today? Taking Care of 'His' Planet, not made by Human Hands? Who is doing this?

Whose Rules do Humans follow in their Fallen Lifestyle? Their Government, Religion, Family, Mate?

Where does God come into this Fallen Killing Lifestyle? What are Gods Rules? What were Jesus' Two Rules?

Who is Taking Care of Gods Planet? Does this Dying Planet look like God is Taking Care of it? Why?

God put Male and Female Humans in Charge of the Creation of Life as we Know it, on our Home Planet. God did not make Children.

Was the Planet 'literally' null and void, before God Colonized it, with an Atmosphere, trees, grass, fish, fowl, animals, and Humans in 'His/Her' Image?

The Human Species was Equal Male and Female Clone Caretakers. Not, the Unequal Killers of Each Other, and their Planetary Home.

If Humans had followed God's Rules, would our Planet still be a Garden of Eden? Instead of a Garden of Nuclear Bombs?

Is this All There Is? Death and Dying? Is there only Human Peace and Love, After Death? Is God, where we go After Death?

Why did Humans lose, their Eternal Physical Life After Birth, and being in touch with God while Alive? Because the Equal Perfect Clones, started Reproducing Unequal Misbred Children?

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Red, HONEST DOUBT by James A Haught is a great read, too. By the way, the Polar Bear Plunge was very cold and refreshing. Like a baptism into reality. The natural world.

I have included this Dover Trial coverage by the BBC because I find it interesting what others think of America’s affliction of ID.

Evolution vs Intelligent Design - Dover Trial pt 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzgvAYBrD1g

Here is another by Eugenie Scott, one of my favorites, on ID, discussing the Dover trial. It’s funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3PnKswZtPI

I have been in many churches through my life as a job and curiosity and recently I find the ones of any kind of size have all these coffees in the lobby. It looks like a coffee house or shop. Recent studies show an excess of caffeine can cause people to hallucinate or hear voices.

Perhaps this mixing of theology and evolution is partly caused by caffeine. Or at large, maybe it’s just simply what you were taught. What you want to hear. Check it out: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479872,00.html

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

adam harrison

John Haught's analysis of Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens is devasting.

For a free download ofa book which does the same thing, and in a somewhat humorous vein, see THE IRRATIONAL ATHEIST.

http://irrationalatheist.com/freedl.html

adam harrison

And congrats to "Cole" for uncovering the "coffee/church" conspiracy; it makes the spread of wmds and mass murder of the young innocents pale by comparison. LOL!

Patricia

"Surely "science" isn't something which should be above or immune from criticism, skepticism, or attempts to disprove it. After all, isn't falsifiability one of the hallmarks of science?"

I agree. Science is about proofs. It is also about proofs via a clearly outlined scientific method, a technique that was built around physical evidence and a clear process. This is the foundation for the definition of science and a process that real scientists agree to live by.

Intelligent Design seeks to circumvent science and the scientific method, but call itself a science. The truth is that it is a philosophy.

Patricia

Happy Birthday, Bill. May your day be happy and may you celebrate many many more birthdays.

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