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January 08, 2009

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IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill,

I enjoy exploring church buildings for their architechtural value and sometimes just pop by a church and drive around it to explore the style, layout, details, decore, etc. I am always amazed at how much space can be crammed into a building and especially if you have a lot of light coming in it opens it up even more.

There is a classical Greek Orthodox Church on 119th and Plumm in Olathe with a couple of domes and right acorss the street from it is a sprawling non denominational monstrocity that looks like a turtle with if I recall correctly green metal roof and mandatory covered circular driveway.

In Lenexa, you see two huge alien looking buildings on 87th & West of Lackman - one of them I think is surely a baptist church. Appears like two goliaths next to each other or like Milky Way and Andromeda Galaxies speeidng up towards each other.

I think out of all the churches I've been to over past year or so (more than 25+ I think) the Greek Orthodox church in Olathe is the most interesting one to me - check out the "bird's eye view" on this map - http://snurl.com/9mf1e - move the map up a bit and right across you'll see a UFO monstrosicty with a idolic cross on it - what non denominational churches don't read the same bible that prohibits graven images or something? But inside it looks as if it is a musical hall - on Sundays, you'd see mandatory preacher's wife all smiles and in sharp outfit and also very friendly and courteous greeters. Looks very well rehearsed and someowhat robotic to me.

If Jesus knew what Xians turned Judaism into, he'd be turning in his grave.

Greg Swartz

Bill, you write that “the world is made up of more than just what our senses can detect.” How do you know that?

It seems to me that the “spiritual insights” that you talk about are just your emotions. Emotional feelings can be explained by knowing about the nervous system of which the brain is the most important part. The body creates various chemicals which make us feel differently. Serotonin (a monoamine) is one of those chemicals and is known to make people feel good.

Feelings of transcendence and spirituality are largely the result of monoamines working within the our nervous system. Check it out!

I am not against feeling good when observing the beauty that is in this world. I rather prefer the beauty that is in nature, as opposed to the man-made kind. But, in either case, I understand that my feelings are organic in origin, not spiritual - and that knowledge does not detract one bit from the experience!

adam harrison

To follow up on Cole's last remarks yesterday regarding abortion, he equates naturally occuring miscarriages, which occur because somewhere down the line something is not working right, with intentionally carried out abortions on healthy fetuses.

To equate a miscarriage for those reasons with the execution of a perfectly healthy fetus because it is not convenient for someone (and I will treat health issues as a separate matter) of course is the logical fallacy of equivocation, and is neither Logical nor Rational as he claims to be.

Further, he brings God into the equation, whom he asserts does not exist, but ignores the fact that Tiller, who most certainly does exist, is carrying out abortions on perfectly healthy fetuses. For him to pretend to not see the difference is either intellecually dishonest or willfully ignorant. In his case, I am not sure which.

adam harrison

Anti semitism among the New Atheists is indisputable.

For example, on pages 4 and 44 of TGD, Richard Dawkins, whom Iggy talked to yesterday, refers to the NOTORIOUS (his word) Jewish lobby but refers to no other lobby that way.

Sam Harris says the Jews are to blame for their own victimhood status because they often would not intermarry and chose to remain separate. Richard Dawkins has the same criticism. So what can they expect? Its their own darn fault.

Christopher Hitchens in his Not So Great book laments that the Judaism was not wiped out at the battle commemorted by Hannukkah...in his words, if it had been "We could have been spared the whole thing". (p 274)

And on these boards, we have one poster who frequently cherry picks and quote mines, in the process willfully distorting, many Old Testament passages for purposes of pure ridicule. He still thinks this is an effective tactic, since it is what he was taught growing up. (He keeps forgetting that the tactics failed and destroyed his own country.)

http://lysis.blogsport.de/2005/06/14/antisemitism-among-the-american-atheists

adam harrison

As a follow up example of anti semitism on these boards, take a look at Coles next to last post yesterday...he suggest that we "remove the Jews".

Ethnic cleansing, anyone?

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill, wrote>>>>>>These material things can lead us to spiritual insights as we remember that the world is made up of more than just what our senses can detect.

Greg, what Bill wrote is factually right. We cannot detect radiation, ultraviolet, X-rays, so these "natural and real" phenomena are NOT DETECTABLE BY OUR SENSES, but they are detectable by EXTENSION OF OUR SENSES THROUGH MATERIAL WORLD WHICH IS PART OF THE PHEONOMENA WE CANNOT DETECT.

I think your post is to question SUPERNATURAL THROUGH DETECTION? And this is where religoius people (even "normal" Xinas like Bill) fall prey to irrational thinking and including the "prime cause/mover/intelligent designer/space sugar daddy god into the equation.

If you look at his statement closer you will see that it actually in its core denies existance of DETECTABLE god and if anyone has followed Bill's writings over the years, one can easily extrapolate that Bill is a sort of a deist/new age Xian who is making up his own religion/theology and it looks to be more and more the case in today's world of Xinaity.

If anyone has done any reserach in psychology/psyhciatry, and evolutionary sociology, it is easy to figure out that we are all "moral relativists" - i.e. will do whatever the environment, society, upbringing will dictate we do.

If our Master Debater James Christensen/adamh/Will Graham would like to be proven that he is a moral relativist - i.e. will act out his morals based on the pariticular situation and not on absolute truths given to him by his alien space sugar daddy Jahova, he is welcome to come to our Polar Bear Plunge this Saturday and I will have a suprise for him that will beyond any shadow of a doubt will expell the demon of Jesus out of him :o) and will leave him wondering where all his absolute morals go.

Meanwhile, check this link out...

Buyology — how we’re brainwashed into buying stuff
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=buy+ology+truth+and+lies&btnG=Search+News

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Preacher,

To follow up on my post for you the other day about "seriously" NOT CONSIDERING YOUR VERSION OF FORTUNE TELLING - Christianity...

I think that one need to understand HOW RELIGION/THEOLOGY/DOGMA HAS PERVERTED COMMON SENSE, RATIONALITY, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE AND BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS OVER THE CENTURIES.

Religious logic was used to DEFEND SLAVERY, ANTI-Women's SUFFRAGE. If you bible tumpers took everything in the bible as literally as some of your fellow crazies do SODOM AND GOMORA, than women would be mere servants.

If gays and lesbians are good enough to work and pay taxes, why can't they marry? A marriage will ensure that they have the same protections that hetero couples have... why is that denied of them? If blacks can marry whites, why not Tom and Bob?

IF the logic behind Anti-Gay Marriage is RELIGIOUS THAN IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Religion can't and shouldn't have any role in policy. Ignorant people rejoice!

John 12 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

So why do Xians pray in jesus's name if jesus said belive in the creator and not in me? Makes no sense. Muslims are right - Jesus is a prophet, not a god then and then we have to go and battle out with irraiotnality of Islam, but at least one theorlogy helps defeat another.

Preacher, I hope you and other Xianst reading this blog are getting the point of rationality in thinking. It is easy to take over Xian thinking as well as any ohter based on irrationality.

Cole's mantra yesterday "IT'S A BIG FAT LIE" is cute - it hits right in the heart of any dogma/theology. I'd like ot see public relations of freethinking based on it and using this "kids language" and hitting at the matter.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Preacher, Continued...

I hope you looked at the link I gave the other day of the 13 episode of Ehrman/Licona debate "Is Reserection of Jesus Provable?"

Professor Bart Ehrman is a really bright guy, and I enjoyed his The Historical Jesus series of Lectures from The Teaching Company. He proved to me quite conclusively that The historical Jesus of Nazareth was probably an Apocalyptic Jewish Prophet. The time that Jesus lived in, appears to be a very Dynamic time in Judaism.

Once you have committed your mind, body and spirit, and indeed, your eternal destiny, to a concept like the resurrection of a dead human being like Jesus of Nazareth, there is rarely a turning back.

The members of the Xistianity are irrevocably dedicated to that concept, so nothing ever will convince them that they are wrong. They simply deny, deny and deny facts, reason and rationality thus continuing in their ignorance.

Let us talk about religous ignornance...

Isahia 45-5:7 God describes himself as evil as he is good and proud of it.

Exodus 2:12 Moses killed, stole, set fire and exterminated tribes/nations=committed genocide. All in the name and wiht direction of god.

Deut 22:28 Rapists get to keep virgins they violate and they can keep them for their sexual favors forever. Rape is not a rape unless its a married woman.

Let us also remember that Jesus said that killing children who disobey their parents should be practiced. I will let you find a quote on that in the New Testament.

Dolores Lear

This week's Daily promise, 1,8,09: God will fight for you
Does God hold our sins against us?
"When God shows mercy, he isn't forgiving that person because of what he or she has done, but because God is compassionate to those who repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness. It is only because of God's goodness that sinners are forgiven."

Who makes all these Assertions for God? Humans? How? Why? To Prove their Man-made God, in our Image, is the Real GOD of the Universes?

Today's Humans should Translate the Religious Writings and Myths, with our High Tech Science.

The Supernatural Acts of the Gods, that flew up in the air and out into Space, are a High Tech Science Human Species.

They do have 'Higher' High Tech Birth, instead of 'Lower' Heterosexual Body Birth, the Original Sin of Higher Born Adam and Eve.

Ezekiel's wheel spinning up in the air, like our helicopters?
The Pillar of Cloud by Day and Fire by Night, some type of spaceship.

We Know How to Do, the Supernatural Acts of the Lord God. High Tech 'is' Supernatural to Natural Humans.

It is Time to take the Mystery, out of the Mystery of Supernatural Gods, in our Image.

How Male and Female Equal Clone Helpmeets, were made in the Garden of Eden Lab, can be Known today.

Knowing the Truth of Eternal Physical Life After Birth, will not change our Destiny. It is already written in the Sands of Time.

But, it is so uplifting to Know 'Why' we are a Killer Species, by Body Birth.

Now we need to Know Why, The Caretaker Clone Species the Lord God Created, in the Lab 'in the beginning'. 'Fell' to the Lower Nature.

There is Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org

Bill, you can only be sensitive to spirit when you drink :o) and if you are allergic to spirit :o) - SPIRIT BY DEFINITION IS UNDETECTABLE THOUGH I THINK YOU YOURSELF ARE SHOWING SOME CONTRADICTORY SIGNS ON IT.

There has been a $1 mln prize offered by the James Randi Foundation for anyone who can prove in controlled experiments that there is something supernatural - http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Any church in America should jump at the matter and apply for it and use the money for the good of the lord, charity, etc.

Unfortunately, this is not going to happen - my prediction, religoius people know that supernatural is just that NEVER DETECTABLE. Otherwise, out of thousands and thousadnds of churches in America there would have been at least one that would take up the challenge.

Clearly, they are "smarter" than that. It is better to dwell in the realm of spirits rather than have the spirits detected :o)

I came across a bumper sticker the other day "How dare you presume I am a Christian?" I had a good time over that one.

I think there should be another sticker "How dare you presume miracles can be proven?" - or in our thread's case "How dare you presume Holy Spirit/God/Jesus are not real?"

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Adamh, anti Semitism? Me? I wish all the fighting would stop. If I lived in a neighborhood where no one liked me I’d move. I know what I suggested will never happen. I do not dislike Jews or any race of people. Sorry you took it that way. But of course you try to twist most everything I say.

I agree 100% with Greg’s description of emotions instead of spiritual insights. Once again. thinking something else, spiritually, is out there I believe is fanciful wishing, It has no purpose in the natural world except for entertainment, book or movie or such.

Iggy, you mentioned in your first post how preachers wife looks well rehearsed. That’s so much of the X show. I attended tent revivals as a kid with my grandmother. It was a tent show that scared the hell out of children and a lot of adults. (Scaring children is evil) This is what churches too often are about. If not scaring then it is this make believe illusion of effects to stir up emotions as Greg has said. Once again all driven toward the BIG FAT LIE.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Dolores Lear

Ever since the late 1800s, Natural Humans have been proving the something 'super' Natural out there somewhere in the Universes, that Holds LIFE as we Know it together, visible and invisible.

The High Tech Electro-Magnetic Force, which powers our Lights, and all types of Miracles, is like the Lord God of Religion had, and the Gods and Goddesses of Myth.

From that, Miracle, Natural Humans began making motor cars, fly up in the air in airplanes, made all types of High Tech equipment, and Atomic and Nuclear Bombs.

It seems so Natural today, that Humans cannot Imagine this was the Supernatural Power of their Man-Made Earth Gods, Goddesses, and Angels.

The High Tech Electro-Magnetic Force, a Miracle to Natural Humans, powers our Lights, and all types of Miracles, a Spirit/Unseen Force.

From that Miracle, Natural Humans began making motor cars, airplanes, spaceships, and High Tech Equipment that Helps Cure Genetic Diseases, and Physical Problems.

Because the Electro-Magnetic Force, became the Holy Spirit of the Trinity Godhead in 300, it is in the Religious Trinity of 'Three 'Persons' in One Godhead.

GOD the maker of the Atom, and Electro-Magnetic Force, Not Humans, do make a Trinity that makes All Life as we Know it, Visible and Invisible.

The Science Trinity is not, that makes LIFE, is not the Human Species.

The End Times show, of a Nuclear 'Arm'ageddon, Killing our Ozone Canopy, and setting up an End Times Planetary Fire, for After the Judgment Day, is at Hand.

With our High Tech we Know this Catastrophe is possible. After the Return of our High Tech Ancestors for the Judgment Day, our Earth will be a Dead Planet like Mars.

Scriptures, Myth, and High Tech, Prove there is a Higher 'Being' Human Species, called God by Natural Humans.

Dolores Lear

Bill.

Your picture of the Badminton Feathers, is beautiful.

I did not care for them when they first put them out, but your picture makes them look like a work of Art.

So thank you for an art appreciation view.

Will Graham

Cole gasps, "Adamh, anti Semtism? Me?" in the tone of someone who realizes they have just been caught.

Yes, YOU, Cole...Adamh is spot on. YOU are one who said one solution is to "remove the Jews". The Nazis had the same solution.

YOU have been caught flat footed, and the BIG LIE is you trying to weasel out of it.

So sorry, Cole, but your protestations are hollow. We know what you think.

Will Graham

KCFIGGY is lying about the quote he attributes to Jesus in his 9:00 post...I challenge HIM to find the quote.

Hint: It does not exist except in his fevered quote mining imagination!

Will Graham

Greg, you don't ever respond to comments, but I know you read them! LOL!

You claim that natural law explains all existence, but your claim is undemonstrable, even in principle.

So, how do you know that?

Will Graham

KCF, I for one will come to the Polar Bear Plunge if Igor Dybal gives his word of honor that he will participate by jumping into the lake, full body immersion, with everyone else.

LOL!

Patricia

A monoamine is something that functions as neural transmission (after the initial stimulation), but that doesn't explain sensory input or immediate response to an outside-the-body event, Greg Swartz.

In other words, we still don't have biological explanations for the reasons that glowing lights in the darkness (within a specific context) function as a spiritual experience for some of us.

Will Graham

GUARANTEED PREDICTION: Igor Dybal will not jump into the lake* at the Polar Bear plunge.

Repeat: I GUARANTEE he WILL NOT do it! I have supernatural knowledge of this FACT!!!


*defined as full body immersed IN the water, not just sticking a foot in! LOL!

memberofKCFreeThinkers.org

Will, you never disappoint me. You are so angry. Nothing I said was out of anger, but out of compassion. Now looking back on it, I think all the Jews should come here. The Jews I know are much more intelligent than others I know. I think they would contribute much more than some people who blog on this site. You twist things around to the negative. There was nothing malicious in my post. Think what you want about it.

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Religion can't solve the problem in the middle east because religion is what's throwing fuel on the fire. Far right Christians are siding with Israel because they want to put a rush on Armegeddon, and mainstream Christians are siding with Israel because Judaism is more similar to Christianity than Islam is. But taking sides is not what's going to help. The U.S. needs to help negotiate a peace fairly, which means no sides can be taken. BOTH sides are killing each other, BOTH sides are deliberately targeting civilians - Israel is not an innocent victim. Did you know that Palestinian children have died because Isrealis have stopped ambulances from crossing checkpoints? Those checkpoints are not just a mild inconvenience - crossing them can be a matter of life and death. Both sides claim historical roots to the land, but let's face it - the Cananites were there first and they are all dead now. If not for religion, some solution could have been worked out..but once people committing violence think God is on their side there is no talking them out of it. And you can say hey it's just the leaders using religion to their own selfish advantage but that can only work when there are followers gullible enough to believe it.

Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org

Regarding abortion...If someone seriously wants to reduce the number of abortions the LAST thing you want to do is make it illegal and think that's going to work. We've been there and done that before. There were still plenty of abortions except instead of just a dead fetus you also had dead women bleeding to death from coat hangers and other gruesome methods of back alley abortions. If you really think abortion is murder then you should admit that making it illegal gives you two "murders" for the price of one.

Of course, sex education and birth control can prevent unwanted pregnancies while welfare can help poor women who want to go through with their pregnancies. But most right wingers are against all those because they'd rather see a woman punished for having sex, whether it's putting her in jail or being filled with glee at the idea that she might be bleeding to death somewhere. It makes sense I suppose since these are the same people filled with glee at the idea of people burning in hell for all eternity. Happiness inspired by someone else's suffering...there's no English word for it but the Germans have one...Schidenfreud (spelling?) or something...whatever it's called it's definitely one of the evils of fundamentalist religions.

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  • Who is Bill?
    I'm the former Faith columnist for The Kansas City Star. For a more detailed bio, look under the "Check this out" headline below. My Twitter handle is @BillTammeus. Friend me on Facebook and you'll see this blog every day in your feed.

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