What Warren should pray: 1-12-09

A week from tomorrow, Rick Warren, the well-known pastor of the Saddleback Church in southern California, will offer a prayer at the inauguration of Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

As you know -- unless you've been living in Borneo recently -- Obama's choice of Warren (pictured here with Obama) has been controversial, mostly because some people consider him homophobic. I don't want to get into all that again here today. Rather, I want to suggest the prayer that Warren might consider giving. Here goes:

We Americans call you by many names, gracious God, including by no name at all if we are convinced you don't exist.

I myself and millions of other Americans know you most fully through Jesus Christ. But by whatever name we know you, I want to give you thanks for this historic day and for what it represents for the United States, a nation infected with the sin of slavery at its birth. I ask your blessing on our new president and vice president -- not so they may press for my own religious agenda but so that they may govern all Americans wisely and with courage and may help preserve our religious freedom among all our other freedoms.

Help them always to remember that they are servants of the American people and that in all religious traditions servanthood is understood as a high and important calling.

Lord, we ask for peace, starting in our own hearts but also extending to our sometimes-contentious political system and to a world in turmoil. Help the new administration and all of us act in ways that show our love for our own country, that promote the common good and that foster an ethic of peace and respect across the globe.

If we disagree, Lord, help us do that with respect and civility, remembering that when it comes to the future, now we see through a glass darkly. So help us avoid the arrogance of false certitude and remain humble.

We pray this day that you would give our new president both humility and boldness, both an attitude of respect and the courage needed to defend us, both a willingness to listen and the gift of others being able to hear what he has to say, especially when he represents your own admonition that each of us should love you as well as love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

I pray these things on behalf of all our citizens, and I pray them through all the names by which we know you. Amen.

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MORE ATATURK RIPPLE EFFECTS

In Turkey, which has chosen a different political route from many other predominantly Muslim countries, there's political turmoil, with more arrests of alleged coup plotters on Sunday. In some ways, all this means that citizens there continue to fight about the path set by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey.

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P.S.: On my New Year's Day posting here, I showed you video of four of my grandchildren wishing you happy new year. But my other two grandkids weren't available then for the taping. Now they've squeezed me into their busy schedules, so today -- just a few days late -- you get to see them wish you a great new year. Just click on the links below.

Download Piper

Download Cole

 

Comments

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

Bill, too many "ifs" in your version of the prayer by Rick Warren. Better scrap it completely and not include it in inauguration ceremony. It serves no purpose other than religous - Obama surely can have a private religous ceremony later or before the inauguration. I hope that the chief justice administering oath of office will have intellectual honesty not to "change" the oath of office which is in the Constitution - did you guys know it? There is NO "SO HELP ME GOD" clsoing it out. Obama can chose on his own to say that but not someone else during a secular governmental affair like inauguration. The same happend last week when Chaney adnimisterd oath of office of senators and congressman, it is also happening all over the country with state legislature, governors, mayors and city councils.
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KCFreeThinkers.org have embarked on the mailing campaign to a small town (ANYTOWN, USA) to promote rationalism, critical and freethinking - first mailings will go out around Independence day to celebrate Independence from Dogma of irrationality - http://www.KCFreeThinkers.org/smalltown.htm
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It's time for reason and science - Center for Inquiry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4tQY38aXDY
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The Night I Saw the Light - by Gina Allen
I first saw the light one night when I was sixteen years old. It was initially a very small light - the beam from the flashlight that enabled me to read under the bedcovers when I was supposed to be sleeping. That night I was reading a Little Blue Book that had been given to me by my boyfriend. It was Percy Bysshe Shelley's The Necessity of Atheism.
http://secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&
page=allen_wayback
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[Will Graham]

Regarding the political route of Muslim countries, one thing they are consistent about is unrelenting hatred of Israel.

I want to follow up on a question I asked PATRICIA; given your unrelenting condemnation of Israel, and unqualilfied acceptance of any actions the Arabs take against Israel, you seemingly do not accept that the Jews learned a lesson in World War two.

The lesson was that if you don't fight back, the enemy will keep killing until they kill all of you.

I asked you, are you a HOLOCAUST Denier, as, for example the leader of Iran is?

YES OR NO?

(If you refuse to answer the question, I will be justified in concluding that the answer is YES.)

[Will Graham]

Regarding Rick Warren delivering the invocation, there are of course a few who would like to stop him, including those who would even like to keep President Elect Obama from mentioning God.

The will not, of course, succeed.

There was legal revolution regardlng relgious speech around 1984, when the Supreme Court began to base its EQUAL ACCESS decisions on free speech criteria and not just the Establishment Clause.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4633563

Of course, regardless of what the Supreme Court decides, are rights remain, as they do not come from the Court. Governmental attempts to silence believers have always failed, and will continue to do so.

[Will Graham]

Say, since Hannibal Lecter is still mentioned around here a lot, I thought we ought to take a look at him!

http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/anthony_hopkins_hannibal_lecter.jpg

[Will Graham]

For a follow up on yesterdays discussion, read how a LEADING ATHEIST provides a JUSTIFICATION FOR TORTURE; this man is frequently praised by his friends Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers, are regularly quoted on atheist blogs around town.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

[Dolores Lear]

Two more cute Grandchildren.

Inaugural Prayer 1
Bill:
"Help the new administration and all of us act in ways that show our love for our own country, that promote the common good and that foster an ethic of peace and respect across the globe. -
I pray these things on behalf of all our citizens, and I pray them through all the names by which we know you. Amen."

Me:
Bill, you have to be kidding. The Christian Majority would be in an uproar. They cannot believe Christians let Pastors in Government, quit praying, 'in the name of Jesus, Amen'. Let alone 'pray through all the Names by which we know You'.

Humans should do their Praying in Private, like Jesus Taught. It works better.

Christians are raised from youth, to accept that the USA is a Christian Country, and ignore that some Founding Fathers were not Christians, and All wanted Freedom From a State Religion.

All the Christian Rites and Holidays were added to Government down through time, because of the Christian Majority.

Now that America is really a Country of many Religions and Atheists, the Way in which the Majority of Christian Youth was raised, is to Accept the USA is a Christian Government, and it is hard to depart from it.

So An Inaugural Prayer this Election will be interesting, as more Citizens are Not Christians and some Atheists. Humans are all Children of GOD/LIFE, as is All Species.

But LIFE is not a Religion, but a Lifestyle of the Higher High Tech Human GOD Species. They are the Equal Caretakers of the LIFE, that GOD has Created on Planets and in Spaceships.

The Lower Human GOD Species on Earths, do Kill GODs LIFE Children and GODs Planet.

Religion, Myth, and High Tech Science tells us so.

[Will Graham]

In this article, the Atheist Guru Sam Harris, much loved by Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers, and atheists around town like JoAnn and Dave, notes that Ghandi had a solution to the HOLOCAUST.

He said that the Jews could commit mass suicide and the world would be shamed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

PATRICIA, what to you think? Would that help today?

COLE MORGAN, you suggested REMOVING THE JEWS...do you like Ghandi's solution better, as quoted by the atheist you admire, Sam Harris?

[Dolores Lear]

Inaugural Prayer 2.
Bill. "Help the new administration and all of us act in ways that show our love for our own country, that promote the common good and that foster an ethic of peace and respect across the globe."

How do we Promote Love for our Country and the Common Good? There are still Haves and Havenots in the USA, and on GODs Planet, after 6000 years of Religion.

We have Pollution on land from sea to sea, and in the sea and air, on GODs Planet. Why?

Our Ethics is Military Bases all over the Planet, and Nuclear Bombs on land and sea, not for the Common Good. This Military budget outspends our Charity for the Common Good of Human Life. Why?

Do we give Thanks to God or the Lord Jesus, for All these Killing Blessings? Are Christians any Different from other Fallen Humans with Gods? How?

Who is this Killer God on Earth today? It is not the Creator GOD, or the Peace God our Ancestors, and Jesus, or any other Religious God.

Only Killer Satan, Who religion cautions us Not To Follow.

I do not mean to give offense, but I want to Stand Up for GOD, God, and Jesus, First, and then Government. I am a good citizen also, but oppose Killing in GOD/God's Name.

So What is our Fate, after Fallen Humans Destroy GODs Planet? Eternal Life After Death?

What Kind of LIFE is that? The return to GODs Elements that make LIFE? They are Eternal, or there is No Life as we Know it.

It is Time to Understand and Accept there is Eternal High Tech Physical Human Clone Species After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Scripture, Myth and High Tech Science tells us so.

[Dolores Lear]

This week's Daily promise, 1/12/09: God is always fair and just
How often do you want to "get even?"
"The Lord despises double standards of every kind." Proverbs 20:10 NLT
"Never pay back evil to anyone. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable. Do your part to live in peace with everyone, as much as possible. Dear friends, never avenge yourselves. Leave that to God. For it is written, "I will take vengeance; I will repay those who deserve it," says the Lord." Romans 12:17-19 NLT
Don't say, "I will get even for this wrong." Wait for the Lord to handle the matter. Proverbs 20:22 NLT

Me:
Who does their part to live in peace with everyone? Our Home Planet is covered with Munitions of all types.

Will Humans Ever Know Why the High Tech Male and Female Clone Peacemakers, Adam and Eve, 'fell' to Heterosexual Body Birth?

They Reproduced the Killer Human Species of All Life on their Home Planet. Will Killer Humans finish Killing it All, with a Nuclear Bomb 'Arm'ageddon?

Why? Where is the Love of God that most Humans on Earth practice with Mouth Worship, while their Hands Kill Each Other?

After Armageddon there is supposed to be a few left to be Save by our High Tech Ancestors to Regenerate like they did Jesus, and take them to a new Planet, to Begin Again as Purebred Male and Female Clones.

Hope they have a Better Peace Experience with Eternal Physical Life After Birth, than our Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth Killer Society had on our Earth.

There can be a High Tech Peace Human Caretaker Society on Planets and in Spaceships.

Scripture, Myth, And High Tech Science says so.

[martin]

I can appreciate the desire for a generic prayer. I also appreciate that President-elect Obama chose Pastor Warren for a reason and would expect him to offer a prayer in keeping with his beliefs, which likely includes praying in the name of Jesus Christ. Anyone who has listened objectively to Rick Warren's messages understands his overall message that God loves each one of us in a personal way. That message can be inclusive while still maintaining the integrity of Warren's beliefs.

[Patricia]

You have beautiful grandchildren, Bill. How nice that they are close enough in age to enjoy the fact that they have cousins.
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Good prayer, Bill. I was well aware that Warren was chosen for the job of inauguration prayer, however, I don't know if he is an evangelist who believes in an all-inclusive God. I mean that there is one power and it is the same for all: Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists.... And as I ask this question, I also come to the realization that it may not really matter if, for him, the larger religions have a common God, as long as homosexuals are not included at his table or by his God.

And can Warren, without hypocrisy, pray for peace and respect for all, if he normally excludes homosexuals? Or admonish others to love thy neighbor as thyself, if he cannot do the same for gays? Can Rick Warren really pray on behalf of all our citizens?

In other words, I don't see any way that he could or would pray the above prayer.

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

"So help me god" is NOT FOUND in the CONSTITUTION FOR TAKING OATH OF OFFICE. A PUBLIC OFFICIAL CAN ON HIS OWN PRIOR TO TAKING PUBLIC OFFICE EXPRESS HIS RELIGOUS OR NON RELIGOUS BELIEFS ALL HE WANTS IN MY OPINION, BUT WHEN S/HE BECOMES A PUBLIC OFFICIALS A HIGHER BURDEN OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW TAKES PLACE AND S/HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER. WHOEVER IS ADMINISTERING THE OATH OF OFFICE (CHEIF JUSTICE FOR OBAMA OR CHAINEY FOR SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN) OR EVEN STATE AND LOCAL REPRESENTATIVES SHOULD KNOW BETTER. TO ME PERSONALLY IT IS THE CONCEPT OF INCLUSION/EXCLUSION - WHICH GOD OUT OF THOUSANDS OUT THERE? IN OUR CONVERSATIONS WITH MANY RELIGOUS PEOPLE (CRAZIES AS i WOULD CALL THEM) IT IS CLEAR THAT "TOLERANCE & INCLUSION" IS ***NOT A PRIOIRITY*** FOR THEM. ACHIEVING A BALANCED STATE OF THINGS WHERE PEOPLE ARE EQUAL BEFORE THE LAW (CLEARLY THEY ARE ALL EQUAL BEFORE WHTEVER GOD THESE CRAZIES PROFESS THEIR BLEIEFS).

The notion that "so help me God" was added to the presidential oath by George Washington is a myth, Newdow said. Not until 1881 can the first use of "so help me God" as an addition to the presidential oath be traced. The phrase was apparently used only intermittently until 1933, according to the complaint. That unauthorized alteration has been used by the Chief Justice since then.

"We are First Amendment purists. It's not just that we think he is politically incorrect. It doesn't really matter which clergy you have. They have all been Christian since this became a custom in 1933. And that is exclusionary to those of us who aren't Christian, to those of us who aren't religious," she said.

"We aren't against free speech, but what we are against is religion in government, and we are against the constitution being meddled with," she said.

It was significant that the Founding Fathers chose to put the entire oath of office for the president into the Constitution, Gaylor said, noting that a lot of people don't realize it's in there.

http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/429922

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

FEDERAL JUDGE FINDS "GOOD CAUSE' FOR HEARING "SO HELP ME GOD" CASE FILED BY ATHEISTS AND HUMANISTS AND WILL HEAR IT ON JAN 15TH

The basic principle/argument of this lawsuit is "historical" grounds and also "constitutional" where "SO HELP ME GOD" IS ***NOT*** IN THE OATH OF OFFICE OUTLINED IN THE CONSTITUTION #1 and #2 historically it has been not used widely untill recently (60 or so years ago). So, it is kind of a URBAN MYTH ABOUT IT (delusion of sorts) that has taken over the mentality of the people.

Perhpas it's time to start giving this nation a bitter remedy of reality and rationality that we live in a natural world and if god is there s/he is not displaying him/herself (only 2,000 years ago) and we need to plug along withoiut him/her based on the rationality and common sense.

No proof Washington said 'so help me God' will Obama?

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=inauguration+lawsuit+so+help+me+god+15+good+cause+federal+judge&ie=UTF-8

Obama HAS EVERY RIGHT TO SAY 'SO HELP ME GOD" DURING THE CEREMONY - he is a private citizen at that time till he's finished - he then becomes a governemtn official at that point.

He also asked to have it included and he has the right to do so too as a citizen - Obama Asks Court to Include 'So help me God' at Inauguration - http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/7-0&fp=496b1eb0070dbe74&ei=blVrSY_zOpvKMJqc6Z0M&url=http%3A//blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2009/01/obama_asks_cour.html&cid=1292178837&sig2=m7BC4JhuBkU0edxKswWXRg&usg=AFQjCNHLAMPwIrD-KI7X0-dLF2LPY_ktdA

The judge says he will "abide" by his wishes - this is remarkable - "wish" and "law" are becoming to be blended.

Another example of "wishful" thinking when it comes to delusion of religion. It is remarkable that a Supreme Court judge is willing to go on a "wish" vs. "law" of the land.

[Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org]

Anyone who advocates torture for any reason is flat out wrong no matter if they are an atheist or a Christian or whoever. But notice what Harris says at the end: "if we are unwilling to torture, we should be unwilling to wage modern war."

So maybe we should admit that both torture AND war are wrong. But of course Adamh thinks the war in the middle east is perfectly alright and that we should encourage Israel to wipe out the Palestinians instead of promoting peace. After all, the Bible says Jesus won't come again until the Jews are at war, so fundamentalist Christians can't do anything that would encourage the Jews to live in peace. Of course, if they really cared about the Jews they might be aghast at their own dogma that the Jews are going to Hell to be burned forever and ever (a form of TORTURE, btw).

Let's not confuse anti-Jewishness with criticisms against the policies of Israel as a nation. Of course the holocaust happened, and yes it was as bad as historians say. That doesn't give Israel the right to bulldoze people's homes or keep ambulances with dying children in them from crossing checkpoints within a path to the hospital. There are plenty of Jews who feel the same way. See:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22jews+for+palestine%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

or http://www.jatonyc.org/

[PreacherDJ]

Bill,

Your sample prayer is either intellectually deficient or dishonest. To say that the God who says there is no other name but that of Jesus Christ by which people may be saved is the same God who denies that Jesus ever existed or if He did, He was only a good teacher or at best a prophet, is quite simply a contradiction. It cannot be true.

The Israelites just coming out of Egypt and seeking to give glory to the authority that brought them out of their bondage built a gold calf. It was their best idea, their best understanding of who God was, and they worshipped it. God didn't say, "Oh, that's alright. I know you don't fully understand Me, you can't fully understand Me, so if you want to think of me as that calf or what it represents, that'll be just fine. It'll just be another name you use for Me." No, His reaction was a little more severe than that.

Bill, building that golden calf was an act Aaron regretted being complicit with. You may want to rethink your sample prayer.

[Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org]

And speaking of the holocaust and also of Turkey, did you know Hitler's holocaust was inspired by Turkey's act of genocide? Hitler argued he could get away with trying to exterminate the Jews because, "Who remembers the Armenians?"

Even today, Turkey has made it a crime to call the mass killings of Armenians during WWI a genocide, even though that IS why the term was coined in the first place. It is a "crime against Turkishness" or some such nonsense. Many Muslims consider it a slight against Islam as well, but their denials don't serve to protect Islam - they just make it look even more ridiculous.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Bill. These are your thoughts? Every sentence speaks of religion. And with non-religion. Why talk of it, at all? If Xs would stop stuffing it down my throat I might stop my cause.

What will cause us to live longer? Prayer? No, because that is proven not to work.

If I was president I would say, “ I will promote education and science, and be tolerant of those who mind their own business.” Education and science benefits everyone and I am for everyone. Life! The natural world.

I would not need a bible or any other book, or disc. I would simply say, “I will do the best I can”

Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org]

Torture is wrong whether an atheist says otherwise, or whether a Christian says otherwise, it doesn't matter. But Harris also said that if we're not comfortable with torture we shouldn't wage war either. That is a good point.

We should encourage peace, not war and so criticizing the Israeli government should not be confused with being anti-Jew. Of course the holocaust happened, and yes it was as bad as the historians say. That doesn't mean that everything the government of Israel does is okay. There are many Jews who feel the same way. Just google "Jews for Palestine" to find some.

[Lynne - www.kcfreethinkers.org]

Another point about pro-Israel not necessarily being pro-Jew - Some Christian fundamentalists are very pro-Israel but not because they care about Jews. They care about the second coming which will only happen after the nation of Israel goes to war. Then all unconverted Jews will go to Hell because they don't accept Jesus. Yet they accuse other people of being anti-Jew or anti-Semitic (which is even more ironic because the Palestinians are also a Semitic people.)

[adam harrison]

KCFIGGY quote mines the Constitution as blatantly as he quotemines the Bible! LOL!

He love to spout that the government shall make no laws repecting the ESTABLISHMENT of religion, but always ignores the SECOND PART of the SAME AMENDMENT! That is, the government shall make NO Laws PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREROF.

Balance, my friends, balance...always an element of every higher court decision.

And Balance does not require forcing the majority to remain silent and just SHUT UP and SUBMIT...but even if it did, I would not follow them.

[adam harrison]

PATRICIA, Will asked you a legitimate question.

You have refused to answer it...as he indicates, that gives us to right to presume that the answer is yes.

You are a HOLOCAUST DENIER.

[adam harrison]

Lynee tells us torture is wrong!

And how does she derive this from atheism per se?

And how does she know torture is wrong? Her ASSERTION does not make it so.

Sam Harris, the atheist favorite, says otherwise. REFUTE HIS ARGUMENTS on the basis of atheism alone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

[adam harrison]

Iggy is asking for money again!

http://www.kcfreethinkers.org/smalltown.htm

He wants you to use your CREDIT CARD! Hahahahaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!

Strangely, one "Hawkeye" had a similar plan back at the end of December, check out Bills December archives toward the end of the month.

Of course, no post cards were sent.

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

EXPERIMENT VISITING KANSAS CITY PLACES OF WORSHIP - PART I

A few of us have been brainstorming an idea of going into a hosue of worship wearing an outfit like burka or perhpas something totally alien like plastic bags over our bodies and sitting in for a few weeks at the services. The face of the person will be completely covered to protect his/her identity.

The purpose of this would be to see how this kind of "netural" behavior which is totally alien to the folks at the place of worship or really anywhere in America will be perceived - will they be asked to leave, would they be questioned about their intentions, woudl they be welcomed, will someone come to shake their hand or welcome them, will there be stares, will there be regular "greeting of new people", would people freak out, will cops be called, will there be hostile actions?

The hypothesis is that if this person remains "neutral" just observing the services and then leave and come back next time again wihtout revaling any intensions or talking about him/herself. There clearly will be a certain anxiety and behavior from the people attending the services towards this person which may be an interesting psychological experiment. It's quite possible that the fear of the unknown what this person represents will cause some people in the place of worship to freak out and call the police and can lead to some interesting interactions with law enforcement and the congregation?

Pehrpas, a man wearing a burka (woman's outfit) can come into the mosque and just stand behind or sit and observe the prayer in the men section to see how it is all going to be perceived by the Muslims. Women are not allowed in the prayer hall with men, but since this is goign to be a man wearing burka this will be an interesting twist to see how psychologically Muslims will treat it.

Or a burka wearing person enters a Jewish temple and see how it all goes there. Since there is a certain tension between Jews and Muslims, this would be a ratehr interesting test. --- TO BE CONTINUED...

[IGGY - www.KCFreeThinkers.org]

EXPERIMENT VISITING KANSAS CITY PLACES OF WORSHIP - PART II - continued.

When asked about the reason for being there the person will just show a piece of paper with "I am here to just listen and observe. Thank you!" and not say a word or get involved into any arguemnts with the people there. If they freak out, another piece of paper is displayed "I mean no harm. I am here to just listen and observe. Thanks you!". No verbal communication to take place at all unless there is law enforcment involved and even then the same line of action is persued with additional pieces of paper pulled out "Feel free to pat me down. I will not reveal my face. I carry no weapons or present any threat to anyone. Thank you!"

Kind of like an alien coming down and watching what's going on. The police cannot really do to much since they have patted you down, the house of worship can ask you to leave, they have every right to do so, the cops can even check out your drivers licence if you wish to give it to them (this is not necessary as unless there is a clear and present danger law enforcmeent are not entitled to know who you are due to privacy and first ammendment issues), they may follow you in your car or you can always get a cab and disappear in a crowded mall or something - like hide in a bathroom and then leave immediately, they cannot do servailance tapes fast enough. This can make it an interesting experiement into the group think and psychology of a congregation irregarldess of what belief system they are. Plus, there will also be interaction with the mall crowd.

What would the be the most interesting this is to see how long will it last? Will the house of worship allow someone who is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THEM AND NOT DISPLAYING ANY EMOTIONS BUT JUST OBSERVING come to the services again? Will there be confrontation? Will kids cry? Woudl parents get their kids out of the building? Will the clergy address this in the service? Before the service or after? Will this person be followed by police? Will they seek some sort of legal action to prevent anythign like this from happening again?

Or will they be tolerant and inquisitive, friendly, and understanding to this person trying to understand that leaving this person alone is the righ thing to do?