The under-educated clergy: 12-10-08

As someone who served for several years -- six, as I recall -- on a committee that oversees Presbyterian seminary students, I sometimes wonder about the quality of students attending seminary these days.

I was not encouraged when I read the lead editorial in the current issue of Theology Today, a quarterly published by Princeton Theological Seminary.

It was written by James F. Kay, who teaches homiletics and liturgics there. In it, he makes a plea (to himself and others) to learn from today's students. But along the way he writes this:

"In my own classroom, I look out on students born in the late 1980s. They belong to a post-everything world. They can manipulate computer screens and text message while enduring my lectures, but they cannot write essays. They insist on 'handouts' that will prepare them for whatever may be on a test, but comparing, contrasting, reasoned arguing, historical perspectives, and scriptural allusions are largely unknown to them. Hence, their ignorance can be accompanied by an astonishing arrogance. It is all beyond them because, in some sense, they have gotten through an American educational system that no longer values what was once known as 'the liberal arts.' I gather, on good authority, that most of them have never received any grade lower than a B, and I wonder as I read their papers how this could possibly be the case."

Oh, my.

If this is more or less universally true in seminaries across the country -- and I suspect it might well be -- what can it possibly mean for the future of the church? How will preachers ever have the patience and skill to read the Bible in its original Greek and Hebrew and exegete it so they can offer its meaning to their congregations? How will pastors communicate effectively with the people in the pews?

What's your experience with this problem? And what's the solution, if any?

* * *

'W' AS A MODERATE THEOLOGIAN

Well, well, well, now that George W. Bush doesn't much need the support of people who would consider themselves religiously conservative or even fundamentalist, he's describing his own beliefs in terms that people who would call themselves theological moderates or progressives or even liberals might embrace. What he believes it up to him, of course, but I think we might have avoided some of the more hostile religious rhetoric of the last eight years had he been more forthright about all of this from the start.

* * *

P.S.: I make nothing of this information, but the question inevitably will come up, so I thought I'd try to answer it here: Gov. Rod Blagojevich, arrested on corruption charges yesterday, is listed as being an adherent of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. The first link here is from Adherents.com. This second link also identifies him as Eastern Orthodox. As I say, I make nothing of this. It says nothing about Eastern Orthodoxy but the long list of allegations about Blagojevich may tell us a great deal about the governor.

Comments

[Quad Kings]

The decline of our public schools is the product of the well-intentioned but misguided liberal agenda to make kids feel good about themselves. What is it that they say is paved with good intentions?

Unfortuately, for whatever reason, our public schools (and most private schools) do not teach critical thinking skills. They reward rote memorization, and regurgitation of what the teacher spews, without critical analysis. This is true even in institutions of higher education. It is a sad state (dual meaning intended).

[Joe Barone]

I found your comments on the undereducated clergy interesting. Actually, it goes much deeper than you described. Many mainline denominations have a large number of small town churches. Those denominations have taken to filling small town pulpits, not with ordained ministers at all, but with licensed lay ministers with minimal training. And because so many small town churches are a part of denominations which are congregational polity, the truth is, they can call ministers with no training or education at all if they should choose to do so.

There are very few ordained ministers (undereducated or not) serving small town congregations in denominations with congregational polity.

In a way, the church is facing the same kind of downsizing and hiring of part time personnel that many businesses face. In states like Missouri especially, a huge number of people, all of them in small churches in small towns, are served by ministers with little theological training at all. In Missouri, in congregational polity denominations, there may be as many people served by licensed lay ministers as there are by ordained ministers in the large cities.

And just to add to the whole thing, maybe more structured congregations are allowing what you call undereducated ordained ministers because they too need to educate ministers for small town churches, people who will always work in the backwaters so far as pay and benefits go. (Some small town ministries can be wonderful places to serve for those who do it.)

So, it is a complicated problem if it is a problem at all, and I don't see it changing any time soon.

[Joe Barone]

In regard to GWB's comments about his faith--I think it is really sad that politicians have to posture about their faith to get elected.

People pilloried Obama because he attended a predominantly African-American church with the typical revolutionary rhetoric which many of those churches have. A lot of African Americans attend those churches though they might be more moderate than some of the rhetoric would imply.

Now many of those same people are beginning to criticize Obama because he hasn't attended church at all for several weeks.

To me, GWB's faith is his faith. And he is entitled to it. The same for Barack Obama. They shouldn't have to posture to be elected. And even more than that, if politicians are forced to posture, then when they are elected, you really don't know what you're getting.

Sometimes religion mettles too much. There are Catholic bishops who are saying Catholics who voted for Obama should confess before taking communion. In other words, Obama voters committed a sin.

Well, I hate to have to tell them, but religious officials don't have the right to tell their people how to vote. We have separation of church and state. If I am going to go to hell just for voting for Barack Obama, then I'm a part of what I would call a trivial religion. My vote is my vote and no religious official is going to tell me how to cast it.

We would be better off to let politicians be who they really are and then let voters do the same.

[Joe Barone]

You had interesting topics today. Surely all of us understand that if Gov. Rod Blagojevich is convicted of the stupid crimes he is accused of trying to commit, that in no way reflects on Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Either all our churches are filled with sinners (some of them unrepentant) or the saving message which most churches preach is not really needed at all.

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

Bill wrote>>>>>>>>> Gov. Rod Blagojevich, arrested on corruption charges yesterday, is listed as being an adherent of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. The first link here is from Adherents.com. This second link also identifies him as Eastern Orthodox. As I say, I make nothing of this. It says nothing about Eastern Orthodoxy but the long list of allegations about Blagojevich may tell us a great deal about the governor.

Bill, I have to question your "sanity" of even raising the issue of the governor's religious denomination. NOWWHERE HAS IT BEEN MENTIONED that his religion had anything to do with it.

What you are right about is that the list of allegations may tell us about the governor. The list again doesn't tell us anything it is the actual interpretation of the list in light of facts we have and how they are interepreted and presented.

If we apply the due process based on rationality, rule of law to it, it will take its course. However, if we took the rationality that "Eastern Orthodox branch of Christianity" has something to do with the poltiician's corruption, this just doesn't make too much sense.

Bill, you are in danger of creating a "straw man" - as psychics and fortune tellers do when they do cold readings on the phone or in person.

Reminds me of adamh saying "the law suit against the doctor proceeded" because he was an atheist and if he had shown respect for his family it would not have. I don't know exactly what happened there with the doctor, but the issue is has the doctor's (albeit it atheist) decision/mistake/neglignece led to the actual event or his non religous beliefs? Was the law suit filed, withdrawn, settled, tried and disposed of? Saying "proceeded" means absoluted nothing.

Just like you inuendo, Bill, about his Eastern Orthodoxy.

You could have saved some electrons on this one, Bill.

[adamh]

Since you are concerned about the outcome, KCF, I just wanted to let you know that mom gets payments for life.

It wasn't just his negligence; it was his utter arrogance and refusal to admit it, while obviously holding our beliefs in contempt, that let to the action.

[adamh]

Bill, you say you "make nothing" of the Governors assocition, in fact you say it twice.

So why even mention it?

Obviously to do a little smearing with "guilt by assoctiation" and "poisoning the well."

Bill, do you have the guts to stand for ANYTHING?

[Dolores Lear]

The Under-Educated Clergy, are like the Under-Educated Masses, on How Humans should Live, with Sharing and Peace on Planet Earth.

Humans had a Sexual Revolution and Population Explosion, for the past 100 years, from 1 billion to 6.6 billion today.

The Family Lifestyle was changed. Humans were caught up in a Monetary Explosion, with Possessions and Pleasure. Adults and Children changed from Family Religions.

A Monetary Middle Class began. Intermarriage of Races and Religion began. Female and Black Freedoms began, etc. This Changed the Human Lifestyle to 'like it was in the Days of Greece and Rome'.

Humans began using their Resources for Weapons of Massive Destruction. Atom and Nuclear Bombs and Lasers, were developed to Kill Each Other and our Planet. Why?

Humans also Developed Flying in the Air, and out into Space like the Religious Gods In Our Human Image. Humans projected Colonizing Planets, like the Lord God did, in Genesis.

Humans made a Human Fetus in the Lab, and Cloned Animals. The Lord God Cloned Male and Female Humans.

Humans made a Space Station, showing Humans can live in a spaceship, and hope in time to travel between the Planets, like the Lord God did in fiery chariots.

Fallen Humans use their High Tech Science for Good and Evil, like stated in Genesis. Instead of Conquering Space, for Good, Humans Polluted our Planet up to Destroying our Ozone Life Canopy, for Evil.

So how were our Young educated? To Hate their Brothers/Sisters of Life, and give our Allegiance to Country, over God, like their Parents were?

To Use God for Comfort and Things? To look forward to Life After Death?

Eternal Human Life After Birth, is possible for an Equal Male and Female Clone Society, on Planets and in Spaceships.

[Dolores Lear]

Bill.

Your Blog Suggestions are Good for discussion.

We are all raised as to the Way we should go, and until recently, most Children went the Way they were raised.

Your comments reflect the Way you were raised. And some Life events have changed the Way you Live, and also for your family. It happens to most of us today.

I was positive My Missouri Lutheran Synod Religion was the True Church of God, until this High Tech Knowledge happened, to Change my Way of seeing our Home Planet, Religion, and our Government Unequal Killing Lifestyle. I also put State above my Faith.

This High Tech Knowledge about Eternal Life After Birth, is not the Way I was raised, and I Shocked Family, Friends and my Church Family.

And I am still Blessed for your Patience with me.

So keep on keeping on. We need your Expertise.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

'W' AS A MODERATE THEOLOGIAN

This one is easy, Bill. First: the money and support from the right side fundamentalist ( crazies, Iggy would say). Second: “W” wants to get back the Presidency for the Republicans. It’s all about power.

The under-educated clergy: 12-10-08

My daughter was a 5th grade teacher for twelve years (now she teaches new programs to the teachers) and I helped for five years with her writing class, the creative side. It was great fun and a learning experience for me. To encourage better future students, they did their first draft in pencil, then in pen and then on the computer. We encouraged computer as well as books from the library for research. By the end of the school year all of them enjoyed writing. We included many more fun as well as educational stuff. Great Fun! What concerns me, is this continued with other teachers? Oh well, all we can do is try and promote studies like this. Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

I believe god should tempt ministers and all clergy into taking science classes as well as sociology and logic 101 classes. I believe it is in the Bible but they just chose to reject it. So, if god mandates "rationality" in the bible and his followers ignore it (especially ministers) no wonder the level of education of the ministers is appauling - they are breaking god's command on being logical and rational.

What else is new?

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

Teachers 'beat and abuse' Muslim children in British Koran classes

Muslim children are being beaten and abused regularly by teachers at some British madrassas - Islamic evening classes - an investigation by The Times has found.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5315021.ece

[Dolores Lear]

On the Governor and Greed.

Most Adult Children grew up, after the Depression and WW2.

The Poor keep getting richer and richer, and 'Getting' became a Way of Life.

I was married in 1941, and my husband and I each made 43 cents an hour. We had a used car, and an apartment for $25 a month, and thought we were rich. Then came WW2.

My husband was drafted. I went and lived with my Parents. I went to Camp with him for a short while. We had our Daughter in 1944, before he went to Europe.

When he came back from Europe, he was to go to the Pacific, but we had Armistice.

Then Economy went wild. We had 3 New Homes, and were considering going into a Town House. We had a Grandchild and one on the Way. I taught Sunday School and went to Bible Class.

Then this new Understanding of the Bible happened to me in 1971.

So if most of the people I Knew got caught up in Fortune, how much more exciting for those that got caught up in Fame and Government.

Common Sense does not change your want of 'things'. All Types of new Lifestyles ended up in Unhappiness and Death.

We need Human Understanding and Compassion for the Governor, and many like him in Government, as well as Brothers/Sisters in all forms of Human Lifestyles.

The Homosexual Lifestyle canme out of the Closet. Many choose this Lifestyle, besides Celebrities like Ellen.

Culture Shock is Here to Stay. So is Planetary Pollution, Nuclear Bombs and War, and our Dying Ozone Canopy.

How are Humans going to Adjust High Tech Space Travel, and Asexual Eternal Clone Life After Birth on Planets and in Spaceships? Or Will They Die First.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

I have been promoting a critical thinking class, Quad Kings. But like my many past occupations, I spread myself thin with causes and perhaps don’t give each a 100%. Spreading many seeds, as I see it. We do need to promote education and the sciences a much as possible to correct the dumbing down of America. I’m not a genius, but I do feel I am helping. A good book on this: “The Age of American Unreason”, by Susan Jacoby is worth the read. Peace For the Sake of Goodness Cole

[Chuck Lunney]

Bill,

The concerns you raise about the seminary students applies across the board. The lack of basic knowledge and skills is appalling, and if it is not "fixed" soon, the USA will end up losing our position as a world leader.

Kids these days focus more on texting (txtng), blogs and facebook, instead of books, newspapers and magazines. The new "way" is not necessarily the best -- and the road the nation's education establishment has been on is going to cripple us in the near future. Already, graduate students in our best-in-the-world universities are more more often than not foreign-born. There isn't anything wrong with that on the surface, except that the total number of grad students isn't rising -- but the percentage of native-born is dropping precipitously. This is a tremendous cause for alarm, because it appears we can't field graduate candidate who are capable and educated enough to compete for the leadership positions and innovations of the future.

I know there are a lot of bright, well educated people in our schools. But they are becoming more and more a minority in our greedy, consumerist culture that prizes style-over-substance and trivia-over-depth.

I realize you are more focused and concerned with the seminaries - but the greater threat and challenge is at the university graduate level. Without cutting-edge scientists, the innovations and creativity go elsewhere -- along with all the prestige, power and money.

[memberofKCFreeThinkers.org]

Joe Barone, I find it interesting that Sunday school teachers have little knowledge and training in the bible and many times with their own education level in general. I find this very dangerous, especially with children. I remember things Sunday school teachers taught me between my 9-12 years of age and now I see how wrong they were…Thank god for critical thinking. I don’t mean just from my own philosophical view, but correctness in bible interpretation. Of course with 33,000 sects of Christianity what does that mean? So if you have low level of theological study with clergy and lay teachers the end result is sending children out in the world loaded with little knowledge and what incorrect knowledge they do have can backfire. Not that I care that greatly, but it is very difficult to debate or discuss with uneducated people. It makes a mess and embarrassments when they can only fall back on an empty statement “It’s my faith and I believe it because I do.” This can’t be good for churches or the public to spread this kind of ‘lack of knowledge’ on any subject. Peace for the Sake of Goodness Cole

[adamh]

Ah, the Chuck and Iggy team; the old "good cop/bad cop" routine"! LOL!

And after Chuck said in his first post here that he would not be posting further; of course, that was before the Star limited his commenting opportunities at Faith Walk.

As far as I am concerned, Chuck and Iggy are up to the same thing; denigration of belief and faith in all forms, they just have different tactics.

Although, frankly, Iggy is more honest and up front about his intentions.

[Chuck Lunney]

AdamH wrote: "Ah, the Chuck and Iggy team; the old "good cop/bad cop" routine"! LOL!"

As opposed to all the theist sock puppets YOU are part of, right? Jim, Diane, et al?

At least I'm not a coward -- I use my full name and have offered clearly and openly to meet anyone one-on-one (http://amhrasscuaine.blogspot.com/2008/12/polite-request-for-discussion.html).

Too bad Adam is deathly afraid to be shown as anything more than an abusive, anonymous troll.

Adam wrote: "And after Chuck said in his first post here that he would not be posting further; of course, that was before the Star limited his commenting opportunities at Faith Walk."

1) That was before I was attacked on my own blog, written negatively about here (and elsewhere) by you and your sock-puppets, etc.

2) I don't post at the Star because it became a haven for anonymous trolls and personal attacks. I notice YOU haven't posted anything there either.

3) Bill writes from an interesting perspective, and I've always enjoyed his commentary.

Adam wrote: "As far as I am concerned, Chuck and Iggy are up to the same thing; denigration of belief and faith in all forms, they just have different tactics."

Gee, ad hominems, insults and off-tangent idiocy in a single sentence. That might be a new record, Adam.

Please point to where on Bill's blog I've denigrated "belief and faith in all forms". You can't, because you are a liar. (gee, isn't bearing false witness a sin in your religion?)

Adam wrote: "Although, frankly, Iggy is more honest and up front about his intentions."

As opposed to you - an anonymous troll who refuses to use a real name, drips every post with personal insults and attacks, and never actually addresses the substance of what Bill blogs about? Why should ANYONE be worried about what you write, anonymous troll? You aren't even man enough to meet an atheist face-to-face.

Grow up.

[KCFreeThinkers.org]

DAY WITHOUT GAY

Just caught on CNN...

California's gay groups today have called on gays in California to call in "gay" today to their work and inform the boss that they are not coming to work today because they are "gay" as opposition to Proposition 8 in CA and ask their boss to support them in it. Also, coming out to your family, friends, coworkers is encouraged and doing charity and volunteering

It was inspired by movie "Day Without a Mexican"

A pretty interesting way of activism. Goes "in your face" pretty creative, got publicity, shames religious people into "intellectual and logical submission" on human rights, equality of all and brings up a rational point of inquiry.

Religious dogma is geting a run for its money. Glad to see that gays are standing up for their rights just like they should be.

Hope religous people join them in their support and also will call in "as gay suproters" and not go to work.

www.daywithoutagay.org

[adamh]

Per Chucks 12:41 post;

Q.E.D.

While you whine about trolls, look in the mirror and see what you have become.

While you are doing that, why don't you explain why you keep saying you want to meet "face to face"?

[Dolores Lear]

This week's Daily promise, December 10, 08.: Give your worries to God, for he cares for you
Do you worry a lot?
""So I tell you, don't worry about everyday life—whether you have enough food, drink, and clothes. Doesn't life consist of more than food and clothing? Look at the birds. They don't need to plant or harvest or put food in barns because your heavenly Father feeds them. And you are far more valuable than they are. Can all your worry add a single moment to your life? Of course not.

"So don't worry about having enough food or drink or clothing. Why be like the pagans who are so deeply concerned about these things? Your heavenly Father already knows all your needs, and he will give you all your needs and he will give you all you need from day to day if you live for him and make the Kingdom of God your primary concern."

"So don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today's trouble is enough for today!" Matthew 6:25-34 NLT"

Me:
Jesus was Leader of an Equal Sharing Commune Society. But this will not work until the Whole Planet Shares Equally.

Jesus' Commune did not last. Nor The Black Sea Scrolls Commune. Nor many other Commune Societies, in our Competitive Monetary World.

The 'Only Way' to Share Equally is with Controlled Reproduction, without a Price Tag put on God's Resources, and Share Equally.

High Tech Purebred Humans can Work with their High Tech Knowledge for Eternal Life, with Space Travel. And Set Up Equal Eternal Physical Life After Birth, on other Planets.

And Join with the Lord God Human Society, that set up Life on Earth 'in the beginning'.

Life is for the Living Humans, not the Dead.

[Red Biddy]

I'm not sure that there is a solution to James F Kay's problem with his current bunch of intellectually lazy students, Bill. I think President-Elect Obama probably nailed it when he advised parents to turn off the TV and make their kids read a book instead !
Eight years of
our "misunderestimated" incurious president has not helped the state of education in this country at all - reading a book, being smart in school are not considered "cool" by many of our young people these days. It's really sad but I think W has a lot to answer for "dumbing down" our culture. We've sunk a long way from politicians like John Adams who used to read Cicero in Latin for fun !
I do think however that a rigorous dose of skepticism is necessary in regard to the 57 varieties of religion in this country. That the crooked Governor of Illinois (it is disclosed) is an adherent of Eastern Orthodoxy is not an attack on the religion but a clear indication that religion (any religion) does not prevent its followers from sinning (only from enjoying it !) so are an very unreliable source of ethics.
I've yet to learn of a government even a self-styled religious one that pays any attention to the Sermon on the Mount.

[Will Graham]

Hi IGGY.

[Will Graham]

But, in all seriousness, why does Bill even mention his religion?

Only one reason I can think of.

[RichB]

I find the connection between Blagojevic and Eastern Orthodoxy a bit non-sequitor. It's the first time on this blog that I remember religion mentioned in a similar context of a political scandal. I don't know the religion of Mark Foley, William Jefferson, or Eliot Spitzer. I think it would be non-sequitor in those cases, too.

I'll have to bow to Biddy's post. No religion prevents its followers from sinning.

I don't agree, however, that as a result, no religion is a reliable source of ethics, if I'm reading Biddy correctly. Just because religious--or non-religious--people have a hard time living up to their ethical principles, doesn't necessarily mean the ethics are unreliable.
********
Regarding uneducated clergy: I agree 100%. I teach undergraduates and I went to seminary. However, if students coming into my class do not have particular skills, they better have them before they leave, or else I am part of the problem. Hand-wringing won't help. Teachers are the only ones who can raise the standards.

Laziness also plays a part of lack of education. In my (Eastern Orthodox--not that there's anything wrong with that) seminary there was almost a revolt because students didn't want to take Greek. I can only imagine what's going to happen in the Catholic and main-line Protestant churches who are desperate for clergy! They're going to have to lower the standards or do without clergy.